Hoary old chestnut - Ducato wing mirrors!

[bolero boy]

colin - 2013-01-15 9:20 AM

 

With regards to the effectiveness of mirror gaurds, logic would suggest they offer some protection, but there are no real facts. I don't have them fitted and had an 'instant folded mirror' at 30mph with no ill effects.

...then you have been very fortunate, Colin.

My first 'bump' with our first Ducato was a result of a large van definitely easing over to the white line causing me to use all the available road and ''apparently' the protruding branch of a nearside bush (oh, why dont councils do something about these nuisances?) whichcaused the mirror to drop out but with no damage to mirror or case.

A further meeting with a protruding branch (this time a very busy A road following wind damage and some fallen debris) punched a small neat hole in the mirror casing but, luckily, did not break the glass.

After that I decided to get some Mirror Guards. My pal also decided to get some so I negotiated two sets for '£very favourable ;-) ' money and collected them, saving postage, as I live near to his home and was passing.

I have the white ones and, as the arms are black, they do show up really well.

One minor hedge clip since the purchase (I do live in the sticks) and the Guard shrugged this off easily.

I would recommend them as the replacements from fiat are very costly.

[mikejkay]

I have just "sighted" along the side of my van and the nearside edge of the mirrors appears to be at least 50mm out i.e. I can see a 50mm+ gap. Next question is how much narrower are the short arm mirrors?

[Keithl]

mikejkay - 2013-01-15 5:52 PM

 

I have just "sighted" along the side of my van and the nearside edge of the mirrors appears to be at least 50mm out i.e. I can see a 50mm+ gap. Next question is how much narrower are the short arm mirrors?

 

So do they exceed 20 cm beyond the widest part of the body? Sounds likely!

 

Keith.

[mikejkay]

You are probably right!!! How could Chausson have got type approval? I will enlist the assistance of the boss and use a straight to check more precisely.

 

On a slightly different topic, as you seem to know about t'regulations, is there any reason/rule/regulation/law etc etc why I cannot have orange reflective tape on the forward side of a wing mirror?

[Derek Uzzell]

Keithl - 2013-01-15 5:58 PM

 

mikejkay - 2013-01-15 5:52 PM

 

I have just "sighted" along the side of my van and the nearside edge of the mirrors appears to be at least 50mm out i.e. I can see a 50mm+ gap. Next question is how much narrower are the short arm mirrors?

 

So do they exceed 20 cm beyond the widest part of the body? Sounds likely!

 

Keith.

 

I think you'll find that (for more recent vehicles) the 'sticking out' distance is 25cm rather than 20cm.

[Colin Leake]

flicka - 2013-01-14 10:54 PM

 

Just a thought -

If the Mirrorguards are white - won't they blend in with the predominently white motorhome & therefore make the Wing Mirrors LESS visible. ???????????????????????

 

 

No they rarely do stand out better than the standard black ones. Bear in mind that they are viewed from the front by oncoming traffic and therefore are not viewed against a white motorhome body. Take a look next time you see some and I think you will agree.

 

I have put white reflective strip on the mirror arms which looks very smart and further increase visibility.

[Keithl]

Derek Uzzell - 2013-01-15 6:58 PM

 

Keithl - 2013-01-15 5:58 PM

 

mikejkay - 2013-01-15 5:52 PM

 

I have just "sighted" along the side of my van and the nearside edge of the mirrors appears to be at least 50mm out i.e. I can see a 50mm+ gap. Next question is how much narrower are the short arm mirrors?

 

So do they exceed 20 cm beyond the widest part of the body? Sounds likely!

 

Keith.

 

I think you'll find that (for more recent vehicles) the 'sticking out' distance is 25cm rather than 20cm.

 

Derek,

 

All the info I could find quoted 20 cm.

 

Here is a link to a DfT Info sheet from May 2010 quoting 20 cm... Link to DfT Info.

 

And the C&U Regs 1986 again quoting 20 cm (line 4.c)... Link to C&U Regs.

 

If you think it should be 25 cm please could you show me where you get your info from as I cannot find any reference to same.

 

Thanks,

Keith.

[colin]

mikejkay - 2013-01-15 5:52 PM

 

I have just "sighted" along the side of my van and the nearside edge of the mirrors appears to be at least 50mm out i.e. I can see a 50mm+ gap. Next question is how much narrower are the short arm mirrors?

 

There are three mirror sizes. OA width are.

Short arm 2508mm

Med (or long) arm 2690mm

Long(or extra long) 2770mm

 

If you have the med then short arm will be 91mm shorter

 

Best double check which you have first

[Keithl]

So, as your Flash S2 is 2.30 m wide, the Medium at 2,690 mm OA width are legal but the Long at 2,770 mm would not be.

 

Which do you currently have fitted is the burning question?

 

Keith.

[colin]

Keithl - 2013-01-15 9:05 PM

 

So, as your Flash S2 is 2.30 m wide, the Medium at 2,690 mm OA width are legal but the Long at 2,770 mm would not be.

 

Which do you currently have fitted is the burning question?

 

Keith.

 

Depends if the mirrors comply with Directive 2003/97 or 2005/27 or ECE regulation 46.02

 

(d)where the bottom edge of an exterior mirror, which complies with the requirements of Community Directive 2003/97 or 2005/27 or ECE Regulation 46.02, is less than 2 m above the road surface when the vehicle is laden, that mirror shall not project more than 25 cm beyond the overall width of the vehicle or, in the case where the vehicle is drawing a trailer which has an overall width greater than that of the drawing vehicle, more than 25 cm beyond the overall width of the trailer;

[colin]

Just another thought, I wonder if a mirror fitted with a 'mirror guard' complies with those regs? Could be having 'strengthened' up the casing it would fail and need to be no more than 200mm out.

[Derek Uzzell]

Keithl - 2013-01-15 7:35 PM

 

Derek Uzzell - 2013-01-15 6:58 PM

 

I think you'll find that (for more recent vehicles) the 'sticking out' distance is 25cm rather than 20cm.

 

Derek,

 

All the info I could find quoted 20 cm.

 

Here is a link to a DfT Info sheet from May 2010 quoting 20 cm... Link to DfT Info.

 

And the C&U Regs 1986 again quoting 20 cm (line 4.c)... Link to C&U Regs.

 

If you think it should be 25 cm please could you show me where you get your info from as I cannot find any reference to same.

 

Thanks,

 

Keith.

 

Colin has now covered this.

 

Within the 2010 DfT document you provided it states that, after 26/01/2010, for "Cars and Dual Purpose Vehicles" Mirror Standard D applies. Mirror Standard D is defined towards the bottom of the DfT document.

 

More about this in the "Mirrors p 387" section here:

 

http://www.oup.com/uk/booksites/content/0199284059/sept_06/ch_10apr/

 

Although the '25cm mirror rule' was implemented in the UK at the start of 2010, it was operative outside the UK well before that. Presumably the EC date of implementation will impact on EC Type Approval but, as mikejkay's Chausson is a 2011 vehicle, the EC and UK 25cm limits will both apply to his Flash S2.

 

[mikejkay]

Thanks for the info. Tape measure time.

[Derek Uzzell]

Three earlier forum threads that may be of interest:

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/door-mirror-replacement-2009-Ducato-save-more-than-200-/20627/

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Ducato-X250-Door-Mirrors/17002/

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/FIAT-X250-Door-mirrors/16352/

 

To DIY replace a pair of 'full specification' X250 mirrors with equivalent shorter-arm variants seems likely to cost approaching £400.

[mikejkay]

Ouch!

[Derek Uzzell]

I wouldn't let that worry you too much, as it’s probable that the idea of replacing the standard mirrors fitted to X250 Boxer/Ducato/Relay coachbuilt motorhomes with shorter-arm mirrors is unrealistic in any case.

 

Earlier in this thread Colin stated that the overall widths (mirrors extended) of X250 vehicles are 2508mm, 2690mm or 2770mm.

 

The Auto-Sleepers website quotes the mirrors-extended width of their Peugeot Boxer X250 panel-van conversions as 2508mm, and 2690mm for their coachbuilt models.

 

It’s apparent from photos of current X250 Auto-Sleepers coachbuilt motorhomes (eg. See the MMM January 2013 Nuevo ES test report) that the ‘head’ of the mirror fitted to these vehicles is well clear of the motorhome’s front-to-rear outer body-line. Tracker has said that his 2009 Auto-Trail Cheyenne’s mirrors could easily be 2” (50mm) shorter and not harm rear vision. However, the difference in length between the shortest-arm X250 mirror and the next length up is 91mm.

 

The body-widths of coachbuilt X250 models from Auto-Sleepers, Auto-Trail and Chausson are similar – around 2.30m – and there’s no reason (either logically or based on photos) to think that Auto-Trail or Chausson would fit other than the mid-length mirror or have a mirrors-extended width greater than 2690mm.

 

Consequently, even if a mirror’s head is 50mm clear of the front-to-rear body-line, switching to the mirror with the 91mm shorter arm will inevitably result in the motorhome’s rear bodywork obstructing the view rearwards. 50mm original ‘clearance’ would become a 41mm loss of mirror-width if the mid-length mirror were replaced with the shortest-length variant.

 

While it might be argued that, as almost all X250-based coachbuilt motorhomes have a body-width not exceeding 2.35m, the (mid-length) mirrors normally fitted to them could usefully have shorter arms, the reality is that the only mirror available with an arm shorter than that of the mid-length mirror will not provide adequate (or, I suspect, legal) rearwards vision.

 

[Tracker]

If my mirrors were on arms that were two inches = 53 mm shorter the overall width would be 106 mm less at 2690 - 106 = 2584 and I suspect that as Derek says going even shorter to an overall 2508 would be just a bit too far for safe visibility as you would be unable to see along the van sides to the rear corners - not much help for reversing?

 

Based on the coachbuilt body being 2300 mm wide and the overall mirror width of 2690 that means each mirror protrudes beyond the body by some 145 mm - almost 6 " - which explains why they are so vulnerable to passing trucks, trees and walls.

 

Has anybody had one apart to see how the arms are made up and whether it is possible to do a cut and shut on them?

[Derek Uzzell]

Tracker - 2013-01-17 3:38 PM

 

If my mirrors were on arms that were two inches = 53 mm shorter the overall width would be 106 mm less at 2690 - 106 = 2584 and I suspect that as Derek says going even shorter to an overall 2508 would be just a bit too far for safe visibility as you would be unable to see along the van sides to the rear corners - not much help for reversing?

 

Based on the coachbuilt body being 2300 mm wide and the overall mirror width of 2690 that means each mirror protrudes beyond the body by some 145 mm - almost 6 " - which explains why they are so vulnerable to passing trucks, trees and walls.

 

Has anybody had one apart to see how the arms are made up and whether it is possible to do a cut and shut on them?

 

A DIY 'arm shortening' exercise was described in the forum thread retrieved by the 3rd link I provided above. This one:

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/FIAT-X250-Door-mirrors/16352/

 

1" = 25.4mm, so 2" = 50.8mm. If you sawed that amount off each of your Cheyenne's mirrors, your motorhome's mirrors-extended width would reduce by 101.6mm from 2690mm to 2588.4mm.

 

2690mm - 2300mm = 390mm = 15.354" = 7.677" 'protrusion' per mirror. An approaching-6-inches protrusion is what you'd end up with if you reduced the length of the arm of the mirror by a rough couple of inches. A 6" protrusion is probably a reasonable compromise between the width of the mirror-glass needed for a motorhome's mirrors and keeping the vehicle's mirrors-extended overall width to a minimum.

 

 

[mikejkay]

I read this post with interest but had only got about half way through before I realised that this would not be possible for me with my limited skills.

 

As a matter of interest, 50mm less projection of the mirror would have meant that this post would not exist. I would have missed the fence post!