Ref small A Class

[jusjess]

Hi everyone i am looking for some feed back in respects to a small A Class i am considering either a Hymer 444 or a Pilot 600L or a Geist 585 or a Bavaria i600L, i want to do some travelling around Europe for a couple of years on my own and these seem a pretty good choice, but i have never heard of a Bavaria and i was wondering if anybody could give me some feed back on the Bavaria.

 

If anybody has any feed back on the other models that i have listed this would be much appreciated.

 

i am also looking at buying one from abroad but for it to be UK spec'd, any help and advice would be much appricated

[Derek Uzzell]

Welcome to the Out&AboutLive forums.

 

Bavaria is a member of the Pilote Group brand (essentially a Frankia ‘sub-brand’)

 

https://groupe-pilote.com/en/our-brands/

 

https://groupe-pilote.com/en/about-us/over-the-years/

 

and there is often a significant amount of similarity between a Pilote motorhome model and the equivalent in the Bavaria range.

 

As I understand it “Geist” motorhomes are essentially re-badged LMC motorhomes with a UK-specification flavour. LMC (Lord Münsterland Caravan)

 

https://www.lmc-caravan.de/en/company/history

 

is itself a member of the Erwin Hymer Group.

 

Not sure what "I am also looking at buying one from abroad but for it to be UK spec’d” really means. If you buy a new motorhome in Continental Europe, it will almost certainly have to be in left-hand drive format and have its habitation-area entrance-door on the right. Its standard specification may also lack features UK motorcaravanners love dear - like an oven or grill - and its heater may be gas-only.

 

Suggest you explore which make/model is most likely to suit your requirements first. After that the implications of buying abroad, importing the vehicle to the UK and being outside the UK for 2 years can be explored.

[mgnbuk]

As Derek beat me to it, Bavaria are Pilotes with different upholstery & furniture finish.

 

Oakwell Motorhomes in Barnsley are (I think) the sole UK dealer. Be aware that they don't appear to open weekends if you want a look - I visited last Saturday, they were shut & the staff in the Machine Mart next door said they only opened weekdays (no visible opening times on their premises I could see).

 

I have looked at the Pilote version several times, but came to the conclusion that there was insufficient storage for our requirements - great payload, but lacking in places to put "stuff" to be able to use it. The 650 versions seem more workable in the space department, but have less payload as a result of being longer - you can't win !

 

Nigel B

[Bulletguy]

 

Not looked at the layout of any of the models you mention but i'd go for end fixed bed though whatever layout, it's a personal preference. Hymer have good resale value but speaking to many Hymer owners in Europe, i've lost count of the number who've told me the older Hymers had better build quality than more current models and prices of used appear to bear this out. So that's worth thinking about.

[Brock]

The 444 does not appear in the Hymer price catalogue for 2019, supporting the rumour that the Dynamic Line [DL] has been dropped. Hymers are very well designed but I wouldn't say they were value for money. To me, they are better than Pilotes and Bavarias and just nudge out LMCs. The Rapido 803F would be my favourite were it not for the double bed at rear which eats up space.

 

Neither Bavaria or Geist have much of a dealership presence in the UK. Both Pilote and Hymer have a long standing commitment to the UK market.

 

I have a Hymer 504 6m A-class. Drop down beds are not suited to everyone although I find Hymer beds extremely comfortable and have always had a good night's sleep. Forward visibility is excellent except for about a metre and a bit in the immediate front - the shape of the dash is to blame. It's hard to judge where is the front of the van but I suppose I'll get better at it. Coach style wing mirrors take time to like but they make sense for me.

 

The biggest beef I have with my A-class on the road when driving solo is the lack of visibility covering the nearside front - from bonnet to end of cab; again the dash is to blame. I just can't work out where the front side is when negotiating very tight areas. Easy with a passenger who can hang out the door! I've always guessed right so far but my luck must change. I'd check how comfortable you feel about the front/side visibility.

 

The wheelbase for my Hymer is just 3m so the ride is rough. The positive is that it turns on a sixpence. Smallish vans don't ride as well as their bigger versions. Get the longest wheelbase you can for your layout!

 

The only reason I have an A-Class is because length is an issue; an A-class is space efficient. The lack of room to access the engine bay causes headaches - two garages refused to replace my cambelt as they "couldn't access it". Some garages want to charge more for servicing. The large windscreen pleases my missus but the cost of replacement is c£3k so you need to ensure adequate insurance cover.

 

If it was my sole decision and length wasn't an issue, I'd go for a standard cab and permanent bed.

[Billggski]

For a different slant on it. Look at the Dethleffs evan.

A new concept for a small a-class, but expensive.

 

https://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/motorhomes/reviews/motorhomes/details/dethleffs-evan-560b-active-motorhome-review/899847

 

[david lloyd]

No experience of the models you quote but we bought our Hymer B544 (2015) last year and with a very good original dealer spec. At 6.55 metres it is relatively short but the layout is nearly all lounge. Having said that the bathroom is excellently executed and the kitchen (with oven and 145ltr fridge freezer meets our long terming requirements for winter abroad. As others have mentioned, the drop down bed is supremely comfortable and there is a very long side sofa that makes an additional bed. Really good storage too.

 

I believe the A-Class to be warmer than a traditional coach built, especially in the cab and, as an added bonus, it does have Alde heating specified which is far superior to any other heating we have had in previous vans.

 

All round this is a good choice (for us) but had been dropped from the Humer line up but second hand examples are about. Good luck with the search.

 

David

[bolero boy]

o think Fuller MHs have a used LHD BDL444 from memory, good saving too...

o like this type of floorpan, although storage of large items can be tricky (bikes etc...) however, I'd look at the Frankia 640SD....SMC have a couple of used ones, lovely spacious vans...

 

OR...if you want a short (6.4m), slim (2.12) A class with large garage and huge fixed bed, try 'our' van...

a Carthago c-compactline i138....easy to drive, slanting dashboard removes some of the issues Brock alluded to upthread...

[Derek Uzzell]

Other 6m-long A-class models are

 

- Knaus Van I 550MD (5.96m)

 

https://www.knaus.com/en-int/motorhomes/van-i/layouts-data/550-md/standard-equipment/

 

- Laika Ecovip 600 (5.99m)

 

[plwsm2000]

Whatever van you look at, a problem that is almost unique to short A classes is the load on the front axle.

Many have a front drop down bed and have very little rear overhang to offset the load on the front axle. Most of the storage is somwhere in the middle so puts loads on both front and back.

 

Although the overall payload may be acceptible, you might not be able to use it all without overloading the front axle. The max. load of the front is generally lower than the max. rear which doesn't help.

 

 

[jusjess]

Thankyou for all your replies, you have given me some great advice, because i will be on my own the idea of a fixed bed obviously cuts down the living space and i know you should really go for the makes know to us all, but you have all given me other ideas and advice which i suppose this what this forum is all about

 

If anybody else would like to add to this please do

Thankyou dave

 

 

 

 

 

[colin]

jusjess - 2018-08-23 12:32 PM

 

Thankyou for all your replies, you have given me some great advice, because i will be on my own the idea of a fixed bed obviously cuts down the living space and i know you should really go for the makes know to us all, but you have all given me other ideas and advice which i suppose this what this forum is all about

 

If anybody else would like to add to this please do

Thankyou dave

 

 

I can see your logic, but would point out that a fixed bed only cuts down the 'living area' if you don't use it for living.

 

A small van I was impressed with was a older La Strada Regent L, it has a drop down bed in a panelvan with ex high roof, I guess the newer ones are just as good.

[Keithl]

colin - 2018-08-23 1:47 PM

 

I can see your logic, but would point out that a fixed bed only cuts down the 'living area' if you don't use it for living.

 

Another advantage of a fixed bed is all the storage space it offers below. We have a fixed french bed and the storage area is HUGE! When looking at other MH's last weekend at Malvern we often commented where would we store chairs, table, etc, etc..

 

And during the daytime we place coats, etc. on the bed for ease of picking them up again.

 

Keith.

[Steve Drew]

We were interested in a Pilote 600L to replace our current Dethleffs Globus I1 because we are limited to 6 mtr's on our drive but found out that Pilote unlike most manufactures do not include 75kg for the driver in their figures this seriously compromised the user payload figures.

So we have decide on the new 6 mtr Roller Team Pegaso 590 A class as a replacement.

https://peterrobertscaravans.co.uk/portfolio-item/new-roller-team-pegaso-590/

[Brock]

Attractive looking van, Steve. I shall have a look at it at the NEC if the model is on show. Shame you didn't post earlier as we were over Huddersfield way on Thursday!

[Derek Uzzell]

Steve Drew - 2018-08-25 6:20 PM

 

We were interested in a Pilote 600L to replace our current Dethleffs Globus I1 because we are limited to 6 mtr's on our drive but found out that Pilote unlike most manufactures do not include 75kg for the driver in their figures this seriously compromised the user payload figures...

 

Are ypu certain about Pilote not including a weight-allowance for a driver when calculating their payload figures?

 

Motorhome catalogues usually include a description of the formula that the manufacturer has used when defining a model’s ‘empty weight’. At minimum this description might say it’s the vehicle’s mass in running order (MIRO) including allowances for water and gas (ie. 'essential habitation equipment’) and a +/- 5% tolerance for build variation.

 

I happen to have a Pilote Year-2000 (French) catalogue and the ‘empty weight’ is defined as the vehicle's MIRO with a +/- 5% tolerance and including weight-allowances for a 90% full tank of diesel, a full tank of water and a 13kg gas-bottle. Although there’s no mention of a driver’s weight-allowance, it was universally understood in 2000 that the MIRO weight would include a 75kg allowance for a driver, simply because a vehicle in ‘running order’ would need a driver.

 

I also have a Pilote Year-2012 (French) catalogue and this goes into greater detail about what the MIRO comprises. The definition is similar to the 2000 one, except the weight-allowances for diesel, water and gas are now all at 90% maximum capacity and there is a specific referemce to an allowance of 75kg being included for a driver.

 

It’s well recognised that motorhome manufacturers have, in more recent years, chosen to define vehicle weight differently, with the weights for water and gas being shown separately from the MIRO, or with the vehicle being homologated so that its MIRO includes the weight of little or no fresh water and/or the weight of only a small gas-bottle. But (to the best of my knowledge) it’s always been understood that (for obvious reasons) the MIRO will include a 75kg driver weight-allowance even if this is not specifically stated in the motorhome manufacturer’s documentation.

 

There seems to be no useful definition in the current Pilote UK catalogue regarding the formula used to calculate the payload, but even if Pilote has allowed (say) for the motorhome’s fresh-water tank being completely empty when the vehicle is being driven, I’d be startled if Pilote had deliberately chosen not to include a 75kg driver weight-allowance.

 

I suppose what I’m asking is “How did you establish that Pilote does not include the 75kg driver-weight?” when - as you rightly say - most (I would have thought “all”) other motorhome manufacturers do.

[Steve Drew]

Hi Derek,

I got the information at them bottom of the very last page on the Pilote tech spec leaflet https://www.pilote-motorhome.uk/consult-our-technical-data/ they allow the weight of 20 litres of water, 90% fuel but no allowance is made for the driver or other occupants, I rather suspect that with the weight of the UK specific options like the oven and upgraded heating etc, that the weight available may be somewhat less then the quoted figures.

Regards

Steve

[colin]

The latest Pilote tech publication includes of weights for each model, starts as empty and goes up to include all passengers, it then has pages of info for weights for all the additions.

 

The 600L starts at 610 empty, dependant on max weight and chassis it then goes to 210, 360, or 920kg with 4 passengers.

[Brock]

Perhaps in this modern age when most motorhomers travel in pairs and when we have elfins, Charles Atlas aspirants, the obese, and others, it's pointless quoting 75kg, even if that does reflect the Body Mass Index of an average male, or any weight for driver/passenger.

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

Steve Drew - 2018-08-26 9:55 AM

 

Hi Derek,

I got the information at them bottom of the very last page on the Pilote tech spec leaflet https://www.pilote-motorhome.uk/consult-our-technical-data/ they allow the weight of 20 litres of water, 90% fuel but no allowance is made for the driver or other occupants, I rather suspect that with the weight of the UK specific options like the oven and upgraded heating etc, that the weight available may be somewhat less then the quoted figures.

Regards

Steve

 

Thanks,

 

I had looked at the catalogue you’ve provided a link to, but not read the final “LEGAL NOTICE” page that carries the weight-related information.

 

Regarding the Pegaso 590, if you are planning to travel outside the UK you might want to enquire about the headlamp ‘non dazzling’ issue discussed in these 2017 forum threads.

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Roller-Team/46258/

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Rollerteam-Pegaso-740-Headlights/46451/

 

(Other 6m or shorter A-class models were produced by Itineo and Dethleffs (the “Evan” range) but I’m not sure if they are still marketed brand-new.)

[Steve Drew]

Derek Uzzell - 2018-08-26 1:13 PM

 

Steve Drew - 2018-08-26 9:55 AM

 

Hi Derek,

I got the information at them bottom of the very last page on the Pilote tech spec leaflet https://www.pilote-motorhome.uk/consult-our-technical-data/ they allow the weight of 20 litres of water, 90% fuel but no allowance is made for the driver or other occupants, I rather suspect that with the weight of the UK specific options like the oven and upgraded heating etc, that the weight available may be somewhat less then the quoted figures.

Regards

Steve

 

Thanks,

 

I had looked at the catalogue you’ve provided a link to, but not read the final “LEGAL NOTICE” page that carries the weight-related information.

 

Regarding the Pegaso 590, if you are planning to travel outside the UK you might want to enquire about the headlamp ‘non dazzling’ issue discussed in these 2017 forum threads.

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Roller-Team/46258/

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Rollerteam-Pegaso-740-Headlights/46451/

 

(Other 6m or shorter A-class models were produced by Itineo and Dethleffs (the “Evan” range) but I’m not sure if they are still marketed brand-new.)

Hi Derek,

Thanks for the heads up on the headlamp issue, but I was already aware and I have sorted the projector head lamps on our 2017 Dethleff I1 to give a flat pattern to avoid dazzle ( I used to be a technical manager at a company called SVA UK which converted and SVA tested up to 1000 vehicles a month down our 3 SVA lanes, we had up to 28 Vosa inspectors on site so altering head lamp patterns was a daily occurrence lol)