Revenue weight puzzle

[broket]

Hi, I can't find full information in here or on the net so ... this question. Thank you.

 

Our MH is 3500kg 'Revenue Weight' {per the plate in the engine bay} and it weighs 3440Kg with me(scrawny 60 yr old), 1/4 tank of diesel, empty water tanks, 1 gas bottle, 1 leisure battery.

No satellite, no TV, no solar, no aircon,

 

Why do people sell these if I can only put 60Kg of my partner+3xchildren+luggage+1/2tank of diesel+(either fresh or grey)40 L (kg) tanks ??? This is without thinking about the garage contents (seaside fun stuff, tent, folding canvas seats etc)

 

It has 6 factory fitted seatbelts. I presume these are for ghosts or leprechauns or imaginary friends.

 

I have C1E with a 107 so I could shoehorn them all into a trailer and pay double for all the ferries.

 

Any replies gratefully received as all 5 of us want to go on holiday in Europe for 6 weeks ...  at the same time ... in the same vehicle.

 

PS(es) the bonnet on this!!! it weighs 20Kgs easy. Probably more. And it has fittings for a bike rack!!!

So... the question ;)

Who would anyone want a 7 berth camper and then drive it around on their own with it empty of ... well, anything useful? Surely 'they' would be thinking of a basic tool kit/proper jack/couple of coats and quilts, some food and beer - you get my drift.

Single axle Sprinter.

 

Famma full length side awning and manufacturer fitted towbar, two heavy duty steadies and a full size spare wheel. I guess these are luxuries which, if removed, would allow one parent and our nine year old to drive off waving goodby out the window to his other parent, his sister and brother (and all the fun stuff in a heap in the street)

 

[stevec176]

Its all a bit of a farce, most vans are unsuitable for what they're sold for, which is why the majority of users are overweight and haven't been weighed. My questions back to you is why didnt you check the weight of the van before you bought it. Have you had it weighed yet, you'll probably find you have even less weight to load. Have you considered having it replated?

[Clive_Adams]

Another case of misunderstanding "Payload" why do people sell these vans already so close on the limit?, well there could be a couple of words for that, but basically because they can.

"Caveat emptor"

[broket]

Yes I feel dumb. I checked with the owner and ... "You can totally, completely drive it with a normal basic license" and I can. So the born again Christian did not lie to this first time MH buyer :(

 

I just can't take anyone with me when I drive it.

 

Thanks for your reply Steve.

 

As mentioned above, it has been weighed with me in it last week. 3440kg

 

From relevant gov site: " .. in the case of any other vehicle, the weight which the vehicle itself is designed or adapted not to exceed when in normal use and travelling(sic) on a road laden. "

 

So replating would require what, exactly? Changing to a double axle?

 

Thanks for your reply Clive.

 

IF 'revenue weight' (the printing on the plate and the text on the V5) means or equals:

 

all-the-other-ways-of-determining-vehicle-weight then we'll have to take everything off it and travel with one change of clothes each.

Even then we might not fulfill the letter of the law.

[BruceM]

It’s possible that the manufacturer replanted your van to a higher weight limit (strengthening the suspension etc), in which case there will be an additional plate in the habitation area and this would take precedence over the plate under the bonnet. Mine’s just inside the rear habitation door, so it’s worth having a good root around if you haven’t already. Nevertheless, even if the van is plated to a higher weight limit by the manufacturer, it may have been down rated to 3.5T with DVLC in order that it might be driven without C1. So you’d still need to go through the paper exercise of uprating it again at DVLC to take advantage of the higher weight limit.

 

I take it that on the V5 the van is classed as Private/Light Goods (PLG) ?

[broket]

Thanks for your reply Bruce.

 

Yep. Motor Caravan. Private/Light Goods (PLG)

 

I will go over it tomorrow but, the missus is like a detective. If she has missed it I would be more than surprised (slightly less than stunned but it could happen) :)

 

Underneath it looks 'standard' but, hey, I'm the guy who believed what he was told ;)

 

From what I gather, after a whole two days rooting around on the net, even if I had a HGV license I couldn't overload this and drive it. It does look just like a 2002 Sprinter 316 CDi underneath, albeit extended out somewhat.

 

I will check out replating but if it costs = the spending money for our holiday I will have to strip stuff out/off including the spare wheel, oven, awning and tow hitch for starters.

 

[colin]

If only a UK publication would weight vans which they test instead of just flowery descriptions of the obvious. :-S

If you cannot find a secondary plate as above, then your best bet might be to discuss with SVTech what options you might have for upping the MPLW.

[Dickybeau]

I’ve just had my van replated to 4050kg. It was based on a fiat Light chassis and sold to me at 3500kg capacity. The payload was decimated by Special Edition spec. I could have had it at 3650kg by paperwork only but I fitted different tyres and auxiliary air bags on the rear. I was advised by JR Consultancy (01359 250808/ 01244 544598. I paid him about £180 for the appropriate documentation. I pay less road tax in U.K. but more in tolls in France. Speed limits on the continent are also affected as my van is now registered as a ‘Private HGV’

[broket]

Thanks Dicky that's interesting. My problem is the significant other :)

 

Only passed her test in 2002, so no C1 and no drivey this thingy if it's uprated. I don't mind so much doing 4000 miles through 8 countries in 5+ weeks because I am a control freak apparently ... so, there's that ;)

 

I am now wondering if it's just a paper exercise to allow her to drive it even if it's uprated - knowing HM gov probably not.

[Keithl]

broket - 2019-06-27 8:44 PM

 

Thanks Dicky that's interesting. My problem is the significant other :)

 

Only passed her test in 2002, so no C1 and no drivey this thingy if it's uprated. I don't mind so much doing 4000 miles through 8 countries in 5+ weeks because I am a control freak apparently ... so, there's that ;)

 

And as it stands it is not legal for you to drive either in it's overweight condition!

 

broket - 2019-06-27 8:44 PM

 

I am now wondering if it's just a paper exercise to allow her to drive it even if it's uprated - knowing HM gov probably not.

 

Unfortunately Not! She would need to obtain a full HGV Class C1 licence.

 

Keith.

[broket]

Yes Keith.

 

even if I had a HGV license I couldn't overload this and drive it.

 

Hence the uprating rant on my part ;)

 

Thanks for replying.

[broket]

I knew I was dreaming but ...

 

Conjecture No1: Strip everything off/out and run it always with all tanks empty except 1/4 diesel - get it down to, say, 3150kg with one average sized human in the driver's seat. Uprate it to 3850kg. Then one day she is alone, driving it and it gets weighed - 3150kg all in. 700kg under the plated weight.

 

Where is the real beef?

 

Yes, I know the law's the law. But it is still an ass.

 

This solution means she can't drive it this summer if we uprate it (takes too long to pass C1 even first time and we have a ferry in just over a month) - even when it weighs less than the original plate.

 

Conjecture No2:I wonder if the penalties are less for her driving it massively underweight on a C than me driving it slightly overweight on a CE1.

 

Just sayin'.

 

Thanks for all the answers. This is a nice forum.

[Keithl]

Terry,

 

I am no lawyer or legal standing but this is my view on your scenarios:

 

1. Uprated to 3,850 kg You are then legal to drive with your C1. BUT If your wife where caught driving she would have no relevant licence and hence NO INSURANCE. It is very likely the vehicle would be seized as an un-insured vehicle!

 

MY view - do not risk it.

 

2. Carry on using plated at 3,500 kg. You MAY get away with a small percentage over weight with just a fine but this is discretionary on whoever stops you. I strongly suspect you may be in excess of 10% over weight so are more likely to be prevented from continuing your journey until you can get under your plated weight. How you achieve that is your problem and you may have to get a Taxi for your passengers if you cannot reduce weight any other way. Is this a situation you want to be in?

 

At the end of the day it is your call!

 

PS From discussions with SV Tech about our Mercedes Sprinter based Auto-Trail I believe they said I could get to 4,000 kg GVW as we already have Auxiliary Air suspension on the rear axle and suitable tyres. We are currently plated at 3,800 from new so decided we did not need to increase any further.

 

Keith.

[broket]

Yes, I was just toying with the possibles.

This thing looks to be bog standard. It's 17 years old and someone has been driving it for 70k so risks have been taken - the last owner had 3 teenagers so ...

I will look all over it in the morning for a secondary plate. Then weigh the big bits we can live without and see what's what.

[Derek Uzzell]

broket

 

Your motorhome is 17 years old, based on a Mercedes Sprinter 316 CDi with a ‘simgle wheel’ rear axle, has 7 sleeping berths and 6 factory-fitted seat-belts, is taxed in the UK’s Private/Light Goods tax-class, and its VIN-plate carries a MAM (Maximum Authorised Mass) figure of 3500kg. But you haven’t said what make and model of motorhome you own...

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/ALL-FORUM-MEMBERS-PLEASE-READ/47195/

 

That identifying information is potentially important as it’s well understood by experienced forum members that motorhomes aimed at ‘family’ usage (ie. models with a 6 or more berths and 6 belted seats) are unlikely to be real-world legally usable when they have been marketed with a MAM of 3500kg to meet driving-licence regulations.

 

The Sprinter platform is heavy to begin with, having rear-wheel drive and a ’truck’ chassis, and motorhomes based on it in the Year 2000s tended to be marketed in the UK with a MAM of 3800kg as lots of UK motrcaravanners had a C1 driving-licence entitlement then. But there were still plenty of ‘family’ motothomes (usually Italian-built) sold here with the 3500kg MAM weight that was the norm in Continental Europe.

 

There’s a weight-advice article here

 

https://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/motorhomes/articles/practical-advice/motorhome-weight-and-payload-a-beginners-guide

 

As you are planning to go abroad in just over a month, it’s debatable whether there’s time to complete an ‘uprating’ exercise, even if the latter were to involve no mechanicle alterations like adding air-bellows to the rear suspensions or heavier-duty rear tyres. As Colin advised, you could check with SVTech whether uprating would just be a ‘paper exercise’ or something more radical.

 

http://www.svtech.co.uk/vehicles/motorhomes/

 

However, if you did manage to get the uprating done and the DVLA officially changed the motothome’s tax-class to Private HGV before you went on holiday, your wife would henceforth not be able to drive the motorhome legally until she obtained the requisite driving licence entitlement.

[broket]

Hi Derek, thanks for your reply.

I followed the suggestion to list our vehicle in my signature. I will check now that it shows up on every post or just the original.

EDIT - yep, it's every post not just the OP.

[david lloyd]

Broket - not to try and deepen your predicament further but, if you were to risk either of you driving it (knowingly or unknowingly) overweight at its plated 3500kgs then you may also be driving uninsured if you were to have an accident. Roadside checks (and, increasingly, in road automatic weighing) is often carried out and sometimes deliberately targeted at Motorhomes so there is a risk. I'm sure if you were just a few kgs over it would be ok but there have been occasions where the weight has had to be reduced at the roadside before the vehicle was allowed to proceed - more decisions on who/what to leave behind!

 

Finally, although revenue weights can sometimes be increased as a paper exercise, it often does not increase the individual axle weights which, in your case, are both likely to be overloaded with just 60kg payload. The increased payload that can be given has to remain within the design limits of the vehicle otherwise there are serious issues about vehicle safety so increasing the weight you carry without the necessary mechanical alterations that may be required (air suspension, tyres with higher load rating etc) coukd place more stress than intended on brakes, steering and suspension.

 

David

[Derek Uzzell]

broket - 2019-06-28 7:59 AM

Hi Derek, thanks for your reply.

I followed the suggestion to list our vehicle in my signature. I will check now that it shows up on every post or just the original.

EDIT - yep, it's every post not just the OP.

If you re-read the link I provided https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/ALL-FORUM-MEMBERS-PLEASE-READ/47195/you’ll see that I advise forum members to provide identifying details of their motorhome in the ”Location” box of their Profile and NOT in any ’signature’ that they choose to create.This (as I say in the link) is because there’s the option in a forum member’s Profile to choose not to view signatures (and I choose not to) but any information inserted in the Location field is always visible in every posting. I now know that you own aRimor Kentucky Camp Estro 8 Mercedes-Benz Sprinter 2151cc 316 CDi T35 316 4X2 4025 903Seriesbut to find that out I had to go into my own Profile, alter the "View other people's signatures?” option from No to Yes, check your postings and (because I really dislike ‘signatures’) then go back into my Profile to change the option back to No.When this forum was set up in 2004 the ability to provide motorhome identity details was not included, though it should have been obvious that it was desirable. Using the Location field is a fudge and there’s a tight restriction on the number of characters that can be input into the Location field - but it’s the most efficient fudge there is.I also notice that you’ve got the "Use rich edit box when composing messages?” option in your Profile set to Yes. Unless you really want to use the forum’s ‘word processing’ capability (which is pretty dire even when it works) you might be better changing Yes to No, as this simplifies things for other forum members who might want to quote from your postings.(What on-line adverts there are for Sprinter-based ‘family’ Kentucky Camp models of your motorhome’s vintage suggest that a 3500kg MAM was the norm, but an uprate to 3800kg should be practicable.)

[Wasnt Me]

Hi we had a problem with our weight and my wife's licence.

 

In the end we uprated to 4000kg and just faced the facts that I am the only person who can drive it. We may get my wife to sit her C1 test in the future.

 

I think you only option really as mentioned before is that you contact SV Tech ASAP and ask if they can do this for you. I used them earlier in the year and although they are quite expensive, it was dealt with quickly. It was the DVLA that seemed to take ages.

 

They might be able to advise the legal stance of you using it at the higher weight whilst the paperwork is being processed.

 

At least that way you can use it for your holiday. You may need to change your plans as you will be doing all the driving.

 

Hope this helps

[broket]

Sorry Derek, it was one of the other forums I joined (ignorance is no excuse and I hate excuses anyway)

 

Set and set.

 

Yes. We didn't do enough due diligence. We did get it at short notice, for a very good price and it has just sailed through its MOT without even an advisory. The guy was strict and checked all the suspension and even the interior seat belts which, he said, wasn't necessary as you could drive the thing without them - their framework must weigh a bit too but we only looked for MHs with enough belts for the children.

 

Members have been kind enough to point out a couple of companies who can assist us so I am contacting them today.

 

I have never owned a vehicle with so little information on the V5 - eg, NOT KNOWN for the engine number. All the relevant weights are blank except 'Revenue weight' - nothing else but VIN, colour, CC and wheel plan.

[broket]

Thanks for the reply Wasn't You :)

 

I am ringing SV Tech as soon as I sign off here. I will certainly quiz them as to rules. Thanks again.

[CaptSteve]

 

I can add some information having gone through something similar and only finally finished the last step yesterday.

 

I also bought my van in a bit of a rush, and didn’t pay enough attention at the handover.

 

It had a plate showing 3,500kg and I set off to weight it with me, half a tank of fuel and a few essentials. The figures showed that I would be overweight with fresh water, gas and the family.

 

After some advice from the guys on here, and finding other vehicles like mine on the internet with a 4050kg plate, I spoke to the DVLA to see how to change my weight. They wanted a COC/letter from the manufacturer or specialist showing that the vehicle had been modified to carry the extra weight. Through the dealership I bought the vehicle, we contacted Hymer. They were able to issue a new weight, 4050kg, without any modification to the van (it’s the same as yours Merc 316). It was explained to me by a friend that used to work on these vehicles, that Mercedes rate it as 3,500kg to allow young’uns to drive it but it’s capable of 4,050kg without modification.

 

So armed with the new COC/letter it was sent to the DVLA (I was also given a new plate sticker). I kept checking every week on the DVLA tax check page, and yesterday they had finally changed my weight. I presume that means a new V5 is on its way, and I will be able to check my tax rate.

 

So worth doing a bit of digging on the internet and even chatting to the manufacturer, it may save you having to spend any money.

 

Cheers

 

Steve

[Derek Uzzell]

It’s the norm for motorhomes with ECWVTA (European Community Whole Vehicle Type Approval) to have a CoC (Certificate of Conformity) for each of the stages of the conversion and for the motorhome to carry a separate ‘data-plate’ (or ‘data sticker’) for each stage. For a coachbuit motorhome with ECWVTA this means that the vehicle should have at least two data-plates/stickers or even three, and there’s absolutely no certainty that the same weight-related information will appear on each plate/sticker. However, I’m doubtful that a 2002 Kentucky Camp Estro 8 will have had ECWVTA and, consequently, it’s quite likely that the vehicle will carry a single data-plate provided by Mercedes.

 

This 2008 forum thread discussed 6-seat-belt motorhomes

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Motorhome-with-6-seat-belts/11990/

 

and there was a caveat about 3500kg MAM models not being a realistic proposition if the vehicle’s full potential carrying capacity was to be exploited.

 

See also the final posting here

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Rimor-Motorhomes/41002/

[Keithl]

CaptSteve - 2019-06-28 1:59 PM

 

 

I can add some information having gone through something similar and only finally finished the last step yesterday.

 

I also bought my van in a bit of a rush, and didn’t pay enough attention at the handover.

 

It had a plate showing 3,500kg and I set off to weight it with me, half a tank of fuel and a few essentials. The figures showed that I would be overweight with fresh water, gas and the family.

 

After some advice from the guys on here, and finding other vehicles like mine on the internet with a 4050kg plate, I spoke to the DVLA to see how to change my weight. They wanted a COC/letter from the manufacturer or specialist showing that the vehicle had been modified to carry the extra weight. Through the dealership I bought the vehicle, we contacted Hymer. They were able to issue a new weight, 4050kg, without any modification to the van (it’s the same as yours Merc 316). It was explained to me by a friend that used to work on these vehicles, that Mercedes rate it as 3,500kg to allow young’uns to drive it but it’s capable of 4,050kg without modification.

 

So armed with the new COC/letter it was sent to the DVLA (I was also given a new plate sticker). I kept checking every week on the DVLA tax check page, and yesterday they had finally changed my weight. I presume that means a new V5 is on its way, and I will be able to check my tax rate.

 

So worth doing a bit of digging on the internet and even chatting to the manufacturer, it may save you having to spend any money.

 

Cheers

 

Steve

 

Steve,

 

Unfortunately Terry's 316 is NOT the same as your 316!

 

You have a 2018 which will be an NCV3 or '906' series whereas Terry has a 2002 which is a T1N or '903' series.

 

I have a T1N 903 and was advised by SV Tech that to increase the GVW and more importantly the rear axle limit I had to have auxiliary air suspension fitted (already done) and then to utilise the 'Low speed' rating of the tyres.

 

Our tyres are 225/70 R15C 112/110 (115N).

 

The 115N means we could increase the rear axle load from the current 2,240 kg (LI 112) to 2,430 kg (LI 115) BUT the maximum speed at the increased load would be 87 mph (SSY N).

 

Keith.

[broket]

Hi.

 

Just to let anyone following this know.

 

I had a very good conversation with Gareth at SV Tech.

 

I said hello and he said hello. Then I started "I have a Sprinter based Kentucky ... " He cut in with "What year of manufacture?"

 

"2002"

 

"Yep, the best one. Nice vehicle. It's the one everyone wants. We know them well. We can uprate that to 3850 with just paperwork if the front axle is 1-1600 and the rear is 2-2240 it will cost 270 +VAT"

 

He went on to give a very good description of what I already see when I look at the actual vehicle ;)

 

"Take some photos and note the tyres that are fitted, fill out the online form, fax it back. We can do the paperwork inside a few days."

 

"When can I use the vehicle?"

 

"As soon as you receive the new VIN plate you can drive it with the new loading".

 

Checked this after:Axles are as he said. Tyres are 225/70 R15 100T N.

 

Doing the math:

 

I will pull the tow hitch off. Because of the long overhang our local trailer place reckon 60kg+

 

Don't know what a 9 meter Fiamma awning weighs but it is very securely fitted so I want to find out before pulling that off :)

 

Anyone know what the second weight is on the plates? This says 4350kg under the bonnet but 6300kg on the side of the drivers seat?

 

And... the axle weights don't add up to anything if my math still works :)

 

1600+2240=3840 - what am I missing.

 

I just wanted to take the kids abroad before they are all teenagers and hate one-another .. and us. I didn't sign up for all this. There should be a law against it.