jumpstart Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 A friend and I were talking about doing a Van conversion as a project. I already have a Motorhome so this was going to be for say a hobby project. So I looked at the latest regulations from the DVLA and found it quite surprising. To be reclassified as a Motor Caravan the van must be a high top, two or more windows on one side, a awning rail, and Motorhome decals on the sides( what ever they look like) amongst other things. Pop up tops like on a t5 are not acceptable. What are all the converters going to do with their t4and 5’s and all the low/median high Boxer vans? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 AFAIK the differance is between a homebuilt and a commercial build, so whilst Possl can sell you a Campster which would be a Motor Caravan, you will struggle to get the same. p.s. you would have to register it as a 'Van with windows'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 colin - 2020-09-30 6:43 PM p.s. you would have to register it as a 'Van with windows'. But note that this would then still be subject to the lowered speed limits on Single and Dual carriageways applicable to vans! https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vito Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 Well as far as I can tell that is a moot point. The DVLA have set this new classification of Van with windows and i agree that there is an implication that the vehicle is still therefore a van. But if you convert it in accordance with DfT definition of a motor caravan.... like the water supply, certain sized bed etc etc... then I am not sure of my position when meeting DfT set speed limits. I wrote to the DVSA to get clarification on this and on the MoT. I have it in writing from them that because my van meets the DfT definition of motor caravan then it must be MoTd as class 4, rather than class 7 (if it were a van). In spite of follow up correspondence regarding speed limits they just reconfirmed this and would not be drawn on which speed limits apply. So for now, until the powers that be can decide, I'm sticking to the van limits. But it would be nice to have a definitive answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 I think this will become one of the infamous grey areas unless it goes to court. After all, if a 'van with windows' is fully converted will it then still be a commercial vehicle? Another ill thought out scheme, I'll not call it legislation because AFAIK there has been no change in legislation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted September 30, 2020 Author Share Posted September 30, 2020 My understanding is that if you take a van and convert it yourself entirely to their brief then it can be reclassified as a “ motor caravan”. If you have a pop up roof as most T5 seem to have ,the application would be rejected. I would have thought this has enormous repercussions for supply companies of roofs and all the low roof vans that would otherwise be bought for conversion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 For what its worth here is Jerba Campervans take on it... https://www.jerbacampervans.co.uk/campervan-van-with-windows-motorcaravan-speed-limits-2020-2021-update/ They seem to think as long as you fulfil the requirements of being a 'Motorcaravan' then you should be alright but I don't know of anyone ever testing this in court. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted September 30, 2020 Author Share Posted September 30, 2020 Keithl - 2020-09-30 8:43 PM For what its worth here is Jerba Campervans take on it... https://www.jerbacampervans.co.uk/campervan-van-with-windows-motorcaravan-speed-limits-2020-2021-update/ They seem to think as long as you fulfil the requirements of being a 'Motorcaravan' then you should be alright but I don't know of anyone ever testing this in court. Keith. I think that is fairly clear. Though the vehicle they show ,a T5 with pop up roof, would be rejected as a motor caravan on a change of V5 form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 There’s a letter about this sort of difficulty in the latest issue of MMM magazine (October 2020, Page 15) where the vehicle was a ‘commercially converted’ VW-based Leisuredrive “Vivante” model. https://leisuredrive.co.uk/vw-vivante-campervan-for-sale/ The letter’s author said that the DVLA refused three times to change the V5 body type to “motor caravan” but - after 5 months - finally agreed to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 Keithl - 2020-09-30 8:43 PM For what its worth here is Jerba Campervans take on it... https://www.jerbacampervans.co.uk/campervan-van-with-windows-motorcaravan-speed-limits-2020-2021-update/ They seem to think as long as you fulfil the requirements of being a 'Motorcaravan' then you should be alright but I don't know of anyone ever testing this in court. Keith. If it was me being threatened with a fine, then I would certainly use their argument. One of the reasons put forward for the change was that a police officer (presumably on speed camera) could easily recognise what type of vehicle it was, this is totally blown out the water by the actual law. So we come back to one of the reasons it was proposed, which was to help with cloning stolen motorhomes, this could be stopped with inspections of all applications. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hans Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 I do not understand what is said above. In case of a T6 as i have in the left picture it is stipulated in the Vw convertors Manual. Many UK garages convert them so get info from them . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 There are many good clips on YouTube about this subject. Well worth taking a look at some. I'm not sure of the importance (or relevance) of having it re-classified as "Motor Caravan" though - as long as it's MOT compliant etc? Worth bearing in mind no matter how much money you throw into it, it's resale value will not be comparable to that of a recognised professional conversion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted October 1, 2020 Author Share Posted October 1, 2020 This explains a lot, the last paragraph is significant. https://www.ukmotorhomes.net/news/converting-a-van-applications-to-dvla-for-a-change-of-body-type Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted October 1, 2020 Author Share Posted October 1, 2020 Bulletguy - 2020-09-30 10:22 PM There are many good clips on YouTube about this subject. Well worth taking a look at some. I'm not sure of the importance (or relevance) of having it re-classified as "Motor Caravan" though - as long as it's MOT compliant etc? Worth bearing in mind no matter how much money you throw into it, it's resale value will not be comparable to that of a recognised professional conversion. It is a legal requirement to have it reclassified if you change body type. Resale value wasn’t the reason I was thinking of doing one, it was just a project,certainly wouldn’t loose money. A lot of professional ones are poorly done and not very interesting internally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialsrider Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 Bulletguy - 2020-09-30 10:22 PM There are many good clips on YouTube about this subject. Well worth taking a look at some. I'm not sure of the importance (or relevance) of having it re-classified as "Motor Caravan" though - as long as it's MOT compliant etc? Worth bearing in mind no matter how much money you throw into it, it's resale value will not be comparable to that of a recognised professional conversion. Having had 5 vans professionally converted over the last 15 years I feel I can offer something to this debate. When I have sold my vans the first thing the prospective buyer asks is "is it registered as a motorcaravan with the DVLA". To me it affects the resell massively and ultimately the final sale figure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 Hans - 2020-09-30 10:11 PM I do not understand what is said above. In case of a T6 as i have in the left picture it is stipulated in the Vw convertors Manual. Many UK garages convert them so get info from them . The problem normally arises when a UK-registered commercial vehicle is purchased and then converted into a motorhome. Historically the DVLA used to be easy-going about changing the description on the vehicle’s UK registration document (V5) to “motor caravan”, but - unless very specific criiteria are met when the application-to-change is made - will nowadays re-classify the converted vehicle as a “van with windows” rather than as a “motor caravan”. This is explained at some length in the link jumpstart provided above https://www.ukmotorhomes.net/news/converting-a-van-applications-to-dvla-for-a-change-of-body-type and the DVLA’s motor caravan checklist can be viewed here https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/840319/v1006-motor-caravan-conversion-checklist.pdf Where a vehicle starts life as a fully-converted motorhome with European Community Whole Vehicle Type Approval (ECWVTA) - like your Westfalia - there is no problem and the DVLA will register the vehicle as a ‘motor caravan’ from the outset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialsrider Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 I am currently going down the complaints procedure with the DVLA regarding this issue. I have met every internal and external criteria which they specify and still they will not classify my van as a motorcaravan. The DVLA even agree that I have met every criteria which they stipulate. They refuse to offer any reason as to why they won't classify it as a motorcaravan other than saying in their opinion it does not look like a motorcaravan. This raises a problem that they are making a subjective judgement on an objective criteria. Why have a criteria at all if once meeting it they still won't reclassify the van. My van is a professional conversion by reputable insurance accredited converters. A full invoice of the conversion was given to the DVLA with my initial application. My complaint is now with the chief executive. If I am still not happy with their response I can go to the ombudsman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 trialsrider - 2020-10-01 9:25 AM ...and still they will not classify my van as a motorcaravan. So what speed limits do you believe apply to your converted van? The lower van limits or the standard MC limits? Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialsrider Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 Keithl - 2020-10-01 9:38 AM trialsrider - 2020-10-01 9:25 AM ...and still they will not classify my van as a motorcaravan. So what speed limits do you believe apply to your converted van? The lower van limits or the standard MC limits? Keith. The lower ones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted October 1, 2020 Author Share Posted October 1, 2020 trialsrider - 2020-10-01 9:40 AM Keithl - 2020-10-01 9:38 AM trialsrider - 2020-10-01 9:25 AM ...and still they will not classify my van as a motorcaravan. So what speed limits do you believe apply to your converted van? The lower van limits or the standard MC limits? Keith. The lower ones My understanding is that Motorcaravans are not Vans therefore not subject to the lower limits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 jumpstart - 2020-10-01 10:06 AM My understanding is that Motorcaravans are not Vans therefore not subject to the lower limits. Correct. See https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits for clarification. I was trying to establish if you can legally follow the Motorcaravan limits if you are not registered as Body Type Motorcaravan and this seems to imply not. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 jumpstart - 2020-10-01 6:13 AM Bulletguy - 2020-09-30 10:22 PM There are many good clips on YouTube about this subject. Well worth taking a look at some. I'm not sure of the importance (or relevance) of having it re-classified as "Motor Caravan" though - as long as it's MOT compliant etc? Worth bearing in mind no matter how much money you throw into it, it's resale value will not be comparable to that of a recognised professional conversion. It is a legal requirement to have it reclassified if you change body type. Resale value wasn’t the reason I was thinking of doing one, it was just a project,certainly wouldn’t loose money. A lot of professional ones are poorly done and not very interesting internally. Certainly build quality has been sacrificed with a number of current day models for the sake of price and i've seen some excellent DIY home build jobs. trialsrider - 2020-10-01 8:43 AM Having had 5 vans professionally converted over the last 15 years I feel I can offer something to this debate. When I have sold my vans the first thing the prospective buyer asks is "is it registered as a motorcaravan with the DVLA". To me it affects the resell massively and ultimately the final sale figure. It would be interesting to know if this chaps self build conversion has been classified as a "motor caravan" by DVLA. There are a few trucks of the same type in UK. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsdmVfN31z_pSCIH4_sWmCQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialsrider Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 It would be interesting to know if this chaps self build conversion has been classified as a "motor caravan" by DVLA. There are a few trucks of the same type in UK. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsdmVfN31z_pSCIH4_sWmCQ I'm sure if it was classified pre 2019 it would have been. It's only since they changed their criteria of the classification that people have been unable to change their body type to motorcaravan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted October 1, 2020 Author Share Posted October 1, 2020 One of my original points was that this is going to have an enormous affect on the secondhand market especially for VDubs unless a high top is fitted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialsrider Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 jumpstart - 2020-10-01 2:04 PM One of my original points was that this is going to have an enormous affect on the secondhand market especially for VDubs unless a high top is fitted. Even if they fit a high top the van still won't be classed as a motorcaravan. That's the point I'm making. You fulfill all the DVLA criteria and they still classify it as a van with side windows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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