Jcvitoman Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 Hi everyone, Sorry if this has been covered but as a new member looking on my phone I couldnt find any relevant threads. Van is 2009 Fiat Ducato 120 HP model. I am not mechanically minded and so all info below has been told to me by mechanics so I must believe it to be true. Christmas eve the van lost power and had to be relayed to local garage where it sat until yesterday. Won't start, AA man says sounded like only running on 3 cylinders. Covers came off yesterday and apparently injectors have been flooded and are rusted in place. The garage says they might not come out but if they do I'm looking at £400 each plus vat plus labour to put right. Best case scenario is around £2500 or more if they break! Therefore please looking for alternative suggestions as I'm unemployed and just don't have that kind of money just after Christmas. Many thanks James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grumblewagon Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 £400++ sounds a lot. It depends on the exact engine, but I would expect a new Bosch injector to be nearer the £200 incl Vat. Have a look on the web for injectors and see the true cost of them. Of course labour cost is pretty high, but my (top class) independent garage can give an accurate estimate for any job. There is also a mobile company that specialises in removing seized / broken injectors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 Hello, The truth is that if the injectors seem to be extremely rusty, they may be difficult to get out but with either a specialist slide hammer or a hydraulic puller; they will come out. The job is significantly easier if the engine is removed. This should not be the focus though.... To begin with; the injector securing screws have to be removed and the likelihood of these being corroded and that they will snap is great indeed. Because the engine will not run, and therefore it is difficult to get any heat into the engine (which helps); the only step that can be taken to help to dissolve the corrosion is to soak the whole area (by plugging the drain hole) with a powerful solution designed for such jobs. We use Deblock oil from Innotec and it has been highly successful on engines that can be soaked then run to a high temperature before attempting to undo the screws. I have not tried it on a cold one. Broken screws have to be drilled out and the threaded holes may be cleaned up but often they have to be helicoiled and to do this the cam cover has to be removed. If the drilling of the holes goes awry, you could be looking at a new cylinder head if the water jackets are hit. This can be an absolute stinker of a job and if i were facing this again, rather than pay £2500 at the main agent like i have i the past; i would probably check Ebay for a secondhand engine. I should add that problems like this are not the exclusive domain of Fiat engines. Renault are particularly bad, if not worse for the same issues. The early 2.3 engines were supplied without covers and have suffered greatly from corrosion. Later engines like the 2013 and 2014 vehicles that i have been doing injectors on recently have been remarkably easy to remove (after taking the proper steps to make things more likely to go right). I wish that Bosch had designed injectors that could be repaired in situ. Bosch reconditioned injectors can be bought from motor factors for less than £200 each; the £400 that the garage suggested is from Fiat for new ones. Injectors, as you now see; are the least of the potential costs here. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jcvitoman Posted January 5, 2018 Author Share Posted January 5, 2018 Thanks for replies both of you. Sounds like a real pain. I will ask the garage to attempt a single injector removal. If this is easy then I’ll look for some recon units. If not I will look down new engine route. Any suggestions for reliable suppliers of these engines? Thanks James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpie Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 Don't shoot me down in flames , but , couple of years ago a lot of taxi drivers at Glasgow Airport had Renault traffics . The injectors "rusted" due to water dropping on, , design fault . One of their mechanics swore by soaking the injectors with coca cola for a few days before removal. Got to be woth a go John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 yes it is common to older ducato vans and solved by fiaton the newer The same goes for the renault traffic on camper vans. Use coca cola zero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandy Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 Since rusted injectors seems to be a common and potentially expensive problem, does anyone know whether there is any precaution that can be taken? Smearing something like copper grease where the injectors sit in the head, perhaps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jcvitoman Posted January 5, 2018 Author Share Posted January 5, 2018 I used coke to remove rust from some old roof rack feet I put away whilst wet and it worked a treat. May suggest it to the mechanic therefore allowing me to get shot down in flames! My motto is never to discount an idea so thanks for the suggestion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deneb Posted January 6, 2018 Share Posted January 6, 2018 It sounds like occasionally treating the area around the injectors and their securing screws with Deblock oil would be good preventive maintenance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted January 7, 2018 Share Posted January 7, 2018 Better molycote used instead of copaslip. It has do the whit the scutlle plate above the fire wall who had bad front screen drainage on vans and alike but not on integral front motor homes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted January 7, 2018 Share Posted January 7, 2018 Be wary of the mobile firms that guarantee to get the injectors out as what they don't always tell you is the damage often caused in the process. We used one company who guaranteed to remove the seized injectors and I assumed that meant we could just refit new ones. However, the Cylinder Head was really badly damaged during the Injector removal. This then had to be lifted to get it Alloy welded, skimmed and repaired. When removing seized Injectors, taking your time is the most important part. Like Euroserve says, soaking and leaving overnight. Trying gentle removal, soaking overnight once again, etc. Few mobile guys have the time, they want to pull out the old Injector then go. Suggest you only use someone who has workshop space for the van to be left there a couple of days so they can take their time. The bill should not be huge because they will most likely only work on it an hour or two a day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 To answer the question about preventative maintenance; When we fit new injectors we smear ceramic grease over the bodies before inserting them and we use the same grease on the new securing screws. It helps a lot. In addition, if your vehicle did not have a plastic cover from new; you should get one and the two or three items needed to secure it. I can't stress this enough; it's not so much the removal of the injectors on Fiat engines that is the problem. It is the likelihood of the screws that retain them breaking while being removed even if every possible precaution has been taken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandy Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 Thanks. Mine has the cover shown in the link below. I assume that is the one you refer to? http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/get-attachment.asp?attachmentid=9547 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 Yes. That is the one. In order to fit it to a vehicle that was not previously supplied with one there are a couple of brackets with lugs on that need to be purchased as well as the cover itself. Once a dealer has identified the cover; they should easily be able to work out what else is required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jcvitoman Posted January 8, 2018 Author Share Posted January 8, 2018 Update time. Apparently the engine would run on 3 cylinders so the mechanic warmed it up and left some penetrating solution on it over the weekend. As mr euroserve so accurately predicted the bolts wouldn't undo under almost twice the reccommended torque and so we will have to go down the new engine route. The garage has said they would be reluctant to swap whole engine as they had a bad experience with a recon unit which failed after a few hundred miles and are now arguing about who picks up the labour bills. They have said they'd be happy for me to source a new head and then fit that instead and also that this would be cheaper and easier. I have no idea if this make sense but my gut feeling is to replace the whole thing? Any advice or help including potential suppliers of engines or heads would be greatly appreciated as I feel totally out of my depth here! Great forum by the way, I've seen others which tend to be very negative but all posts here are most helpful. Thanks in advance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 The problem with the head replacement plan is that the injectors will have to be removed so that the cam cover can come off so that the head bolts can be reached. This means that the injector screws will have to be removed and if (when) they break they will have to be drilled out because the remainder of the screw will be seized in the cam carrier and head. Once these are out and the injectors have been pulled out, the head can be removed. You may get a complete head but can you be confident that the injectors that are in it are any good? A new head is about £900 plus VAT and comes without injectors or glow plugs. The amount of labour and the cost of the gaskets, bolts and other minor items that you will end up paying for are just too variable. An engine swap takes about 10 hours and should involve little more than filters and fluids to complete. A reputable firm like Ivor Searle can provide a guaranteed reconditioned engine for about £2500 plus VAT and i have bought engines from sources on Ebay for between £900 and £1500 with no problems at all. If the engine is still in the vehicle and can be seen running this is a bonus but the potential cost savings are considerable and for me; outweigh the moderate risk that there will be issues. There are firms (also to be found on Ebay) that offer collection of the vehicle, replacement of the engine and return to you for a reasonable sum. This may well be worth looking into. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deneb Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 euroserv - 2018-01-08 8:42 AM When we fit new injectors we smear ceramic grease over the bodies before inserting them and we use the same grease on the new securing screws. It helps a lot. In addition, if your vehicle did not have a plastic cover from new; you should get one and the two or three items needed to secure it. Do you reduce the tightening torque applied to the securing screws after greasing them, and if so by how much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 No. It makes no difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 Very interesting to see where the injectors are actually seized in the head and on the injector part. They just fall in to head and rest on a metal conical seat. And a seat reainer clamp whit one bolt Making a metal to metal seat contact. hopefully gas tight. But the water can enter up to?. The fuel return pipes on them where also part of recalls causing fires. Because of leaking diesel please make a picture of the removed injector(s) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deneb Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 euroserv - 2018-01-09 5:02 PM No. It makes no difference. Thank you :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b16gkt Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 I have had several motors in the past with injector issues problems with removing them due to being seized I once had a kia We tryed everything to get it out but eventually we covered the injectors with lots of blankets closed the bonnet and turned the engine over and this in turn released the injector when we removed the blankets there it was free as a bird lol worth a try as these fire out some compression . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 b16gkt - 2018-01-10 10:33 PM I have had several motors in the past with injector issues problems with removing them due to being seized I once had a kia We tryed everything to get it out but eventually we covered the injectors with lots of blankets closed the bonnet and turned the engine over and this in turn released the injector when we removed the blankets there it was free as a bird lol worth a try as these fire out some compression . But unfortunately not a lot of use if you can't get the hold down bolt out first!!! Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 This is what Haynes said on a ford transit. Using an open ended spanner,twist each injector from side to side until it becomes free.The retaining bolts and all seals should be renewed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will86 Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 I'm sure its well known by some that there is another way for making a hole down the centre of a bolt. (quote) Electrical discharge machining (EDM), also known as spark machining, spark eroding, burning, die sinking, wire burning or wire erosion, is a manufacturing process whereby a desired shape is obtained by using electrical discharges (end quote) This application is mainly applicable to the injection moulding process for the production of plastics. However I've seen it used during a seized bolt problem. Whether this can be applied to the seized bolts described here I do not know. In general the EDM equipment is not portable but there might just be someone who has used this process which, when set up is accurate with no sideways damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 There is a method which is even simpler than spark erosion, have a read of this recent thread on the Sprinter Forum... https://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=61029&highlight=acid+bolt And it can be done at home! Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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