Alanb

John52, Sorry, I missed your post above when scanning the thread. I think that you have raised this before, perhaps on another forum, or is my memory playing tricks? In my opinion, any loads should be connected on the chassis side of the shunt/sensor, probably a Hall effect device. This is what happens with the base vehicle electrics e.g. lights, wipers, heater fan, ECU etc. Alan

Phil, OK but can you confirm that the original device clamped to the battery negative post, has two small wires attached, at separate points, and not where the brown cables are attached? Alan

I agree with Keith that there is insufficient voltage at the battery, for it to receive any significant charge. The following is only tentative, and I would appreciate the comments of others. Building from Keith's post above, and examining the photos of the battery negative connections, it seems that there is a shunt connected to the negative terminal. This would allow the smart alternator system to monitor the battery current. However there are also two brown cables and others connected at this point. I take thes brown cables to be for the habitation electrics, and the associated B2B charger. These cables appear to be attached to the battery terninal clamping bolt, and not to the chassis side of the shunt. If this is so, the the smart alternator system will see the B2B current and what the other brown cable is supplying as battery charge current. Should not these additional cables be connected to the chassis side of the shunt, and not directly to the battery negative? Alan

Jeremy, Yes, I was thinking of a charging fault causing battery failure, and was concerned for the survival of your replacement. Alan

If it is the original battery that is still in use, do not take too long to choose. The main limitations, will be the physical size and handling weight. I am assuming that there is space for an 019 size of battery, 354mm long. When replacing the starter battery on my 2.8jtd as a precautionary measure at 10+ years old, I selected from major brands according to CCA (Cold Cranking Amperes) rating. My choice was a Varta H3 with an 830A CCA rating. If restricting choice to Flooded Lead Acid (FLA) batteries it is possible to buy 019 size batteries with with a CCA rating of 900A. If not insisting on major brands it may be worth looking at Advanced Battery Supplies (ABS). Their own (relabelled?) Advanced XD019 is priced at £110 including delivery, possibly cheaper on Ebay. See my recent post on the Rooster63's Motorhome Batteries thread, and for details of the ABS battery see here. This post should not be construed as a reccomendation, it is for information only. Alan

As Labby has said the horn push button is connected in the negative side of the relay coil. This connection is made via the "clock spring". It is possible that the clock spring has failed. There is a similar thread on the Fiat Forum, which may be viewed here . Alan

In view of the lack of a further reply from @Mickthemin, I can only conclude that he does not wish to proceed with option 2, which was to rewire to the original diagram. Alan

@laimeduck Jeremy, Have you checked the charging voltage across the battery terminals? Alan

Subsequent to buying our 2011 Saab 9-3 in November 2015, I noted that the battery, a Yuasa 3096, did not seem to be original fitment. An intrernet search provided some suggestions for extracting the manufacturing date from the engraved code, KT3J23. My interpetation was 2013 October 23, with the "3" being the year in the decade, and "J" indicating the tenth month. This fitted with the original battery being replaced, at some date prior to my purchase. Perhaps because the original had been left in a discharged state? Alan

How long is a piece of string? What seems to have been overlooked is that as @rooster63has suggested his habiation batteries may be 10 years old. That is a good lifetime for a lead acid battery. Further in saying that he thinks the batteries may be original, he suggests that he has not owned the vehicle from new. The treatment that the batteries received under previous ownership is an unknown. On my own 2006 PVC the habitation batteries have have been changed twice, the last time being in 2022, so 8 years life on average. These batteries are kept charged by the CBE CB516 charger. I think that rooster63 is wise to question the state of his batteries, and that if possible, he should follow the suggestion made by @spirou. Alan

@Derek Uzzell, Please be assured that I do not struggle with relay schematics, until perhaps they are presented as wiring diagrams. My remark was applying to those, who unlike myself, are not familiar with complex relay circuits, of which the Omnistep diagram is not an example. The Omnistep diagram that you have posted could still be confusing, as it is two diagrams with no separation between them. As regards the converter of Albertslad's PVC not following the Omnistep diagram, there is not much that can be changed, other than which battery is used. As the step presumably can still be operated from the buttons, as previosly alluded to by Keith, the D+ initiation may be missing, or if that is intact the the separate retact supply to the relay contact 87 becomes suspect. It is my understanding that Albertslad is trying to locate the connection points for both of the above. Alan

. A 2008 Ducato indicates an x250 model. An option on the x250 was a converters panel mounted at the base of the "B" pillar. The panel offers a D+ signal and various other connections e.g repeater light initiation. The "D+" output is active low, being connected to 0V when D+ is at 12V. An inversion relay will be needed in order to operate a fridge relay. The D+ output capabilities are limited. Some converters use a special repeater relay box for both IGN+ and D+ outputs. In order not to overload any D+ output, it is sound practice to connect only the fridge relay to D+, and then to supply other relays i.e. split charge, step retract etc, in parallel with the fridge supply. Further there are different methods of supplying the step motor. Thule/Omnistep take the manual operation from the habitation battery, but connect the auto retract to the starter battery. Why? Clive Motts diagram is confusing, in that he uses wire colours used by Sargent, and like them ignores the standard Omnistep colours. Further the supply is shown as being from the Habitation Battery, while on a Sargent system the Bn/Gn would be connected to the Starter Battery via a 20A fuse. I would not expect the step auto retract power to be supplied via a base vehicle cab fuse. This was however the case on my PVC, where the converter had obtained an ignition switched supply for both relay coil and step motor, by plugging into a vacant relay coil socket. The supplying fuse had been uprated from 10A to 25A? Not a good idea. Alan

The batteries on our 2003 PVC are left nearly permanently on charge via the CBE CB516/DS520 combination. Due to the blocking diode in the DS520, the starter battery sits about 0.6V lower than the CB516 output when charging. The starter battery was changed at 10 years for a Varta H3, chosen for the CCA rating of 830A. The original battery survived a further two years on float charge before expiring. The original habitation batteries had to be replaced at about 9yrs by two Banner Energy Bull leisure batteries, which were thirsty beasts. These Banner batteries were again replaced in 2002, by two ABS XD27 dual pupose batteries with a claimed capacity of 105Ah each, and a CCA of 1000A. No rate was quoted, so being aconfirmed sceptic I assumed C100, rather than C20. ( I had previously fitted ABS starter batteries to our lawn tractor, and found no cause for complaint.) Our Saab 9-3 1.9TTid came used in late 2015, with a non original Yuasa 3096, as that was nearly 10 years old, I have recently it with an ABS battery that has a claimed spec superior to the Yuasa. CCA rating was again a prime consideration. We previously owned a Vauxhall Astra Estate 1.7TD. We were carfully watching the battery, and were prepared to change it at any sign of trouble, when the starter motor failed. The battery lasted until about 14 years old. My current policy is to change starter batteries at 10 years. Habitation batteries when required, but more frequently than 10 yearly. I agree with Spirou as to the suitability of Philip M's habitation battery for boosting purposes. Unfortunately if I needed to use one of my ABS XD27s in a similar role, I woud probably have to remove seat and turntable for access. While the above is not strictly on topic, it is intended to illustrate what may be achieved. Finally a warning note. If attempting to make emergency use of the habitation battery in the above manner, perhaps best to fully isolate the battery. This will ensure that starting currents will be unable to stray into the habitation electrics.

I cannot help directly, but some years ago I tried to match the sum of indications and controls passing between the PC200, and DS520 panels on my PVC, with the cores in the cable When I allowed for power supply, two optional extra controls, and for B2 current indication, the total 18, exceeded the 16 cores in the ribbon cable. I had therefore to assume that some form of multiplexing was involved. There is a fair amount of electronics on the DSxxx board, including a dual operational amplifier (opamp), and several discrete transistors. I have assumed that the dual opamp would be used as voltage detectors for the low voltage limit (10.6V), and the 13.2V simulated D+ functions. This leaves the discrete transistors. Perhaps some are relay drivers. My current thinking is that there may be some simple multiplexing of the selection for the various controls, but this may have to include digital display selection. Originally I dismissed my idea as not being possible, but when I discovered that some base vehicles use simple resistance coding for the vehicle road lighting, I thought that perhaps it may be possible.

Possibly a faulty flame failure device, frequently called a thermocouple, but depending on the type used this may not be technically correct. As you do not seem to be aware of such devices, perhaps you should seek appropriate technical advice.

And I was just about to post in a similar fashion.

Hi Mick, The connections you describe are suggesting it is the fridge relay that you are looking at. If I understand correctly we are discussing relays located under the bonnet. For clarification how many relays 2 or 3? I would expect to find split charge and fridge relays, the step auto retract relay could be elsewhere. You mention a red wire going to the split charge relay, but to which terminal please? You mention a black sheathed cable which has red core as relay switched positive, and black core is fused battery. At a guess this could go to the fridge? Usually you can see some of the wiring if the grille is removed. Further investigation could be if possible to ease out the step switch, and record the the wire colours. Sorry for all the questions, but I am trying to understand what you have. I agree that it does not seem to be original, but who knows? If you are happy to make minor wiring corrections if necessary, let's see if option two is possible. Alan

Following from my previous post, I have now extracted the step wiring details from the downloaded diagram, and sketched out a schematic for the step connections, but using the simplified step switch symbol used by Sargent, as this switch is working correctly. The step is powered solely from the starter battery, with the auto retract function being via the fridge relay. The 15A fridge fuse seems rather closely rated as it has to carry the fridge element current, and briefly, the step motor stalling current. The wire colours on the step relay should be as follows. 86 Rd/Ye 12V supply from fuse 2 (under bonnet) 15A 85 Bl/Wh earth via step limit switch when step not fully retracted. 87 Rd/Ye as above, fridge supply. 30 Rd/Bl to step motor. (The step retracts when this wire is +ve.) 87a Rd.Gn from push button. The warning buzzer is connected in parallel with terminals 86 & 85 of the step relay, and should have Rd/Ye and Bl/Wh (limit switch) connected. Thule/Omnisep diagrams show a 2200 mfd capacitor in parallel with the relay coil. This is to slightly delay the release of the step relay, and allow the step to drive fully home. This is not shown on the Sargent diagram, where the capacitor would also discharge into the warning buzzer, reucing the intended delay. Alan I am not familiar with the Sargent/Bessacar installation. Is the manual step control via repeated pushes on a single button, or separate linked buttons for extend and retract?

If there is no connection to 87a (NC) contact on the step auto retract relay, somthing is wrong, as it would normally be connected to the manual operating switch/button. I have previously dowloaded a copy of a Sargent 700 wiring which is probably similar, and wiring methods usually evolve slowly. Unfortunately my hypothesis does not fit the diagram, but in view of the missing connection on step relay 87a above, what else could have been changed? More thinking required. Alan

Is the fridge working on 12V? A failure may not be obvious. As suggested by @Labby check the fridge 12V element supply fuse. I can postulate a mechanism by which the problem can occur, but with the lack of actual wiring details, I have to make the following assumptions. 1. Fridge relay coil, and step alarm are both connected to D+. 2. The step retract relay coil is connected to the fridge side (87?) of the fridge relay contact. 3. The fridge element supply fuse has failed. This may be due to corrosion. With the step retracted, and the engine running, the step alarm will receive a supply from D+. The limit switch is open, but with the fridge element fuse blown, and the fridge selected to 12V, the fridge 12V element will provide a return path for the step alarm via the step relay coil in reverse to normal direction. @Micktheminit takes time to research and answer these queries, so please engage with the forum by posting what you find, on this thread. Thanks, Alan

The battery under the seat will be the habitation battery, and while it should not be neglected, it is unlikely to be part of the problem. Alan

Oh dear! I seem to have diverted the thread towards a different subject. What prompted my earlier post was the following post, dated 10 June 2023, on the Fiat Forum. While not stated, I believe that the gearbox would be the Fiat 9 speed automatic. "I broke down on April 26th in the South of France in my van. I am a lady in my 70’s who has been recently widowed. I was travelling alone with just my young rescue dog for company. I waited five and a half hours on a busy road junction before a low loader picked me up. I was then taken to a Fiat dealership an hour away. It was too late for the van to be looked at that evening, so the following morning the mechanic did a diagnostic test on it but could not find the fault. I was low loaded again to the bigger ‘parent’ garage another 45 minutes away. When I got there the service manager didn’t want the van. I insisted that as it was still under warranty with only 9,125 miles on the clock…they had to accept it. The van was taken off the lorry but put in a hotel car park next door. I was told they could not look at it until they got permission from Fiat Technical France. I said this was rubbish, as if I had broken down at the roadside someone would have inspected it,,,,as they had already done do at the first garage! My van was left for 9 days without anyone looking at it at all. When I complainEd to Fiat Assist International/Allianz they said they had been told by the garage that someone was checking it regularly! I said this was NOT true. (I was still staying in it) at that stage). Still nothing was done. Eventually work was started but the fault could not be found. An E-Tool had to be sourced from the U.K! It is now six and a half weeks since I broke down and my van is still in a garage in Castres, France. Yesterday I was informed by Allianz that Fiat is still waiting for some parts to complete the repair and they won’t be available until 21st-28th JULY. - That will mean my 21 reg van will be off the road for over 3 months. The fault is with the automatic gear box. - A valve problem. They are waiting for the delivery of joints/seals to finish the repair. I am going to attempt to ask them to put a new gearbox in when I try to get hold of someone senior in the company on Monday. If they cannot do the repair in a reasonable amount of time then they need to look at replacing the whole unit…..which will not need the joints/seals. I would never recommend anyone to buy a Fiat vehicle again after this dreadful experience. At the moment I am still stuck in France, as repatriation by train, plane or even driving by car from the South of France to the SW of England is not an option with a young rescue dog who gets car sick. I would never have attempted this trip if I had been in an old vehicle. I felt I was being quite responsible in a new van. If anyone has any suggestions of how to move this matter forwards/contact details for someone senior in Fiat, I would be very grateful." I am sure that John52 is aware of that post as in his alter ego, he posted a credable explanation for the delay in repair. We have two automatic gearbox equipped cars, but if they fail I suspect that repair costs could exceed their value. I would like to add that the gear changes on the DSG equipped Skoda Fabia 2, are so smooth as to be only noticeable by checking the dashboard indication.

I cannot advise on the relative merits of the vehicles mentioned, bit I would advise careful consideration about buying a vehicle fitted with an auto gearbox. Automatic gearboxes seem to figure disproportionately as problems on the Fiat Forum; repairs can be difficult to arrange, and protracted.

Our property is surrounded by arable farming operations. I could use one of those cameras to monitor agricultural tractors, combine harvesters, and crop sprayers, working in adjacent fields.

As hinted at by thebishbus, engine size needs to be stated before constructive advice can be given. The engine size can be obtained from the V5C registration document. May I add that you should not expect sports car performance from a motorhome.