weighty problem

[silverback]

hi to all,

i wondered if anybody could give me some advice on the my weight problem? (thats the van weight and not me (lol) )

the plate under the bonnet says

3200kg

5200kg

1690kg

1750kg

i cant find another plate either any where, the problem is this.. i went and weighed the van with full water tank, full fuel tank, plus all the usual bits and bobs and me in it, it came in at exactly 3200kg, back axle weight at 1680kg, so this means her indoors cant come on the trips :D

what i dont understand is the bottom 2 figures are the axle weights (max) and added together it comes to 3440 kg so surely this must be the max weight of the van and not 3200kg as the first figure!! or am i being a bit thick *-)

jonathan

[Keithl]

Hi Jonathan and welcome to the forum,

 

You are right with your weights, the first is your GVW or MTPLM or whatever else anyone chooses to call it. This is the Maximum weight the vehicle itself can legally be.

The second is your GTW which is Gross Train Weight, ie vehicle plus trailer. Then come your axle weights as you say, the reason the sum is greater than your GVW is to allow for load balance.

The next thing to check is your Log book, what does that say for 'Revenue weight'? If this is greater than 3,200 kg then there must be another plate you haven't yet found. It it is 3,200 kg then you either need to look at replating to a higher weight or putting the MH on a diet!

 

Try doing a search on the forum for 'Weights' or something similar as this is a topic which crops up time and time again.

 

Hope this helps,

Keith.

[Guest Tracker]

If the van has been uprated to more than 3200kg there should be a plate to prove it - and the V5 should also say so - if not and you get stopped and weighed by UK or French plod you will be fined and/or made to lose weight before proceeding so it is very important to get it right.

 

What van is it and what age? Have you spoken to manufacturer or dealer for advice on payload etc?

 

 

[Basil]

Hi silverback, it is quite normal for the axle weights combined to be greater than the maximum weight, ours is the same. It is apparently to allow the placement of the load within the vehicle to not have to be perfectly sited to place equal weight on each axle, remembering that the weight of the engine and transaxle are towards the front so imoveable.

However if you contact SVTech they have advised me that it can be replated to allow an all up Max weight of 3440kg (or more with modification) as you have worked out BUT you still need to ensure that the individual axle loads are not exceded.

 

Bas

[silverback]

Hi Keithl and Tracker,

i have just looked at the V5 and it doesnt give a weight on it :-S im thinking that the plate is the original van plate cos in them days they just converted normal vans, (my van details are on my signature) i did think of contacting rollerteam direct and see if they could help but im the 3rd owner so will have to see what happens when i contact them, also thats why i want to get this sorted cos less problems with the plod the better 8-)

would you know where this other plate might be located

[Guest Tracker]

Sorry missed the vehicle details - senior moment again!

 

The plate should be under the bonnet very close to the original.

 

It's possible that Don Amott of Hilton near Derby were the original importers and maybe a phone call to them could point you in the right direction?

 

 

[silverback]

cheers Basil,

i had heard about this replating thing, i will do an internet search on them and see what can be done :-S or im gonna have to just sit on the drive and sleep in it there to get my moneys worth out of it (lol)

[Stuart]

My van (Merc316) has the original plate showing 3500 and also the CI plate showing 3800 but the rear axle is 2240 in both cases so would need to check on possible axle weights after upgrade as well as total.

 

Stuart

[silverback]

sort of going off on a tangent, for the new motorhomers out there, i got the van 4 years ago and i just thought its a van, so stick owt in it weight wise, but because in the past year our mag MMM has sort of brought it to the fore about weight ive took more notice, but i cant believe my van only carries this weight!!! if i took everything out and put 4 people in it (cos it has 4 more belted seats)making 6 peeps, i would be overweight probably, thats just ridiculous!!! (!) not only the plod but insurance must be an issue as well :-(

[Brian Kirby]

You are right, and I'd bet the plate is correct.  These vans were built big and light for the Italian market, and more berths that their logical carrying capacity is not unusual.

As loaded, you have only 70 Kg spare on the back axle, so being practical about the way weights move around the van in use (especially water from the fresh tank to the waste tank), you will be permanently flirting with overload at the rear even if re-plated to, say 3,400Kg.

Going beyond that might be possible, but I'd guess would prove expensive, since you may need a new axle, brakes, wheels, and 5 new tyres!  You may not, but do be warned, and check very carefully exactly what would be involved, and at what cost.

The main determining factor will be any differences between the chassis structure on your 3,200Kg van, and that of the next one up in the range, rated at 3,400Kg, for which the axle loads are 1750Kg front and 1900Kg rear.  You have 120Kg to play with at the front so, if the rear could be lifted to, say 1,900Kg you may find the extra 150Kg makes the van workable.

However, as it is now 9 years old, you may find life a lot easier, pleasanter, and not that much more expensive, if you look at trading it against one with a better payload, rather than trying to boost the payload of what you have.  At least, I think that would be where I'd start.  Hope this helps.

[silverback]

hi Brian,

thats a good point about the water moving to the back (i hadnt thought about that!!)

i think the point about upgrading the chassis /suspension /axle etc might be a non started (sounds expensive) but i take it onboard (not the van!) and will see what quotes i can come up with.

as for getting another van!! I wish! trading in i reckon they would hardly give me owt for it, but i might explore that possibilty

However i have been thinking about this a lot :-|

im still waiting on rollerteam getting back to me,

so im thinking, only travel with half the water (cos i dont need it all for the weekends i go away sometimes wild camping) so that should save 50kg and the water travel from front to back wont be an issue,

then im gonna take off the awning and remove the spare wheel( use tyre weld or something) so that should save 50-60 kg (that will allow the wife onboard)

then i reckon remove the nearside pulldown bunk/cupboards cos there is nothing in them(deadwood sort to speak) that way the grandkids can still come and the food/drink/clothes will all get in

then if we travel with the drinks/food/clothes in the over head cab bed that puts even more weight to the front (lol)

Then if i lose 10kg and the missus 5 kg i think we might have done it :-D

jonathan

[Derek Uzzell]

Jonathan:

 

Something else worth considering is weighbridge accuracy. A weighbridge intended for heavy commercial vehicles and with a weighing capacity of up to 50 tonnes may not be pin-point accurate around the 3 tonne mark. As you are currently right on your motorhome's maximum overall and rear axle limits, if the weighbridge you have used was 'out' by just a small percentage (either under- or over-reading) this could affect your plans on how best to address your problem.

 

As Basil has suggested, your first port of call should be SVTech

 

http://www.svtech.co.uk/

 

as this company should be able to advise you on what's practicable regarding 'up-plating' your motorhome or physically modifying it to increase its present maximum weight limits. 'Up-plating' is relatively cheap if it involves just an on-paper exercise where the vehicle's original maximum overall weight is increased to reflect the sum of its maximum axle weights. In your case this would be 1690kg + 1750kg = 3440kg (as Basil said).

 

As Brian advises, modifying a vehicle physically to increase its weight limits may be permissible if there is already a closely-matching version with higher limits in the vehicle-manufacturer's model range. For instance, it used to be straightforward to uprate a Ford Transit FT-150 3300kg chassis to FT-190 3500kg specification by fitting heavier-duty tyres and larger rear drum-brakes. Conversely, one forum member has a current model Fiat-based 3300kg motorhome that (according to Fiat) may not legitimately be uprated beyond that weight. Whatever the case, as you and Brian have observed, physical modifications are unlikely to be cheap.

 

Besides carrying less fresh-water and draining the waste-water tank (and emptying the WC cassette) before driving your motorhome, you might be able to weight-save by carrying less gas or using lighter gas-bottles. An extreme example would be going from two 15kg (butane) Calor cylinders (61kg full) to a single 5kg (propane) BP Gas Light bottle (9.5kg full).

[silverback]

Thanks Derek,

i am currently waiting from rollerteam in the uk, they have the van details and they have said they will contact italy for me, to see if the van is rated correctly, apparently the other plate should be stuck to the side of the passenger seat metal bit!! (obviously not strong enough glue!!)

I am also waiting on Don Amott cos they were the original importers (Would never have found that out if it wasnt for Tracker)

I have also contacted SVTECH to see what can be done (Thanks to Basil and you, waiting on reply)

So all in All its just a waiting game at the moment *-)

Also I have already got a 6kg calor light weight cyl rather than the heavy ones

On the weighbridge do you really think it could be out? either way (no pun intended) its the only one round here and if i we go around weighing my van its gonna cost! so i think ive got to take the weighbridge figure as true

but thanks for the imput

jonathan

 

Ps WHY DOESNT THE FORUM SEARCH EVER WORK!! :'(

[Derek Uzzell]

silverback - 2010-02-17 5:59 PM

 

1: ...On the weighbridge do you really think it could be out?...

 

2: ...Ps WHY DOESNT THE FORUM SEARCH EVER WORK!!...(

 

1: Might be worth asking whoever owns the weighbridge how accurate they believe it to be and when its accuracy was last tested. Extreme accuracy probably won't matter for weighing big trucks, but a 20kg or 30kg under- or over-reading could be important for you.

 

2: The search facility is hopeless nowadays due to the forum's large number of threads. If you want to do a 'general search', then you'll need to put a forum-member's name in the Search's "Filter by author" box. But, of course, this will involve crystal-ball gazing and an in-depth knowledge of what subjects interest which members - information anyone new to the forum will not have.

 

Try Searching using Brian Kirby or Derek Uzzell in the Filter by Author field, as both of us have been prolific posters over time. A Search with Keywords=weighbridge, Filter by author=Brian Kirby and Date limit=All posts should work for you.

[Mel B]

Hi silverback

 

Before you do anythng else have another good look through all the stuff you currently take with you and decide exactly what you definitely need and put that in, load the van up fully with fresh water and fuel, everyone who ever travels in it at the same time (or their equivalent weight) and get it weighed again. If you carry a fair bit of tinned food, for example, its surprising how heavy it can be, changing to dried foods, or relying more on just having enough for a few days, rather than 2 weeks could give you extra kg to play with, it only takes a few things like that to give you a much healthier margin.

 

We're riding close to our maximum but are 'legal' so we're putting the van on a diet at the moment until we decide for sure what we're doing - we can definitely have our Ford based van uprated from 3500kg to 3950kg if we want at a cost of £200 plus VAT (paper exercise viat SVTech) but no point in doing so if we decide to change the van (still mulling it over).

 

From what you've said above, if you're happy with your van and are able to do the uprating, assuming of course that you can ensure that you stay legal and still have what you need with you in your van, then I'd say stick with it as it would cost you a heck of a lot more to change and there's still no guarantee that a new van would definitely have he payload you'd need for your family and chattels.

[Brian Kirby]

Mel

Mainly for you, but also for Jonathan.  I'm sure you do realise - but just in case you don't - the re-plating you are describing only amounts to adding together the maximum permissible loads on both front, and rear, axles.  It increases the MAM, but it does not increase the maximum permissible load on either axle.

Since most motorhomes that are at, or close to, their MAM, are also at, or close to, the permissible maximum for one or other axle, it would be well worth your while checking the actual, fully laden, axle loads before embarking on that kind of "bench study" based re-plating.

If you have good spare capacity both ends, preferably rear biased, and have measured, or calculated, the effect on the rear axle load of a full waste tank (or 2,000 bottles of wine stashed in the boot :-)), and it still complies, fine.  However, it is surprising how much a few Kgs extra load at the rear is multiplied up at the rear axle, especially with a longish rear overhang such as yours (did I really say that!  :-D).

[silverback]

Will ask em next time i go, on your point 1

thanks for the tip on the searches, it worked to a certain extent been looking thro the forum this last few days, its a mine of info, i should have been on here years ago 8-)

 

 

Hi Mel B

yeah i agree with what you say, this weekend the missus and I are gonna go thro the van with a fine toothcomb, will call it a crash diet (lol) although all my stuff will get thrown out and the wifes will stay in, (fact) :-|

to be honest tho there is not alot in there really but im sure will find something,

hopefully will be able to uprate abit then will take it from there, cos we want to stick with it, were planning to get a new one in 2 to 3 years and when we do this weight issue will be the 1st thing on the wish list

[silverback]

Brian Kirby - 2010-02-17 9:23 PM

 

However, it is surprising how much a few Kgs extra load at the rear is multiplied up at the rear axle, especially with a longish rear overhang such as yours (did I really say that!  :-D).

 

 

 

hope your referring to Mels rear overhang Brian and not mine!! (lol)

 

but on a serious note Brian, i realised about the max loading on the axles, the purpose of the replating would be to keep the stuff i have now in the van cos i dont need owt else in (apart from the missus) then if owt happens with vosa etc i will have the correct weighting plate on and not the 3200kg

even as i post im working on a plan of action where i can strap the missus on the dash and put more weight on the front axle >:-)

[Brian Kirby]

Main target to transfer load forward will be anything presently stored behind the back axle.  Wherever you put it inside the van, it will still place some load on the rear, but  it will then place part of its weight also on the front, instead of removing load from the front and transferring that also to the rear, it will give the biggest bang for your buck.  Good luck!

[Mel B]

Managed to get the search facility to work for once! :->

 

Brian ... of course I know about not overloading the axle weights ... you were part of a thread where we discussed it previously ... I think your memory's going .... :D ;-)

 

A few threads with useful info on:

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=17664&posts=9

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=17550&posts=28

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=15837

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/printer-friendly.asp?tid=13491&mid=

 

[Brian Kirby]

I know Mel, but there are a lot of people who won't have seen the earlier posts, and the issue keeps on coming up again and again!  So, I just repeat the warnings, in case!  You just provided the peg to hang my obsessions on!  :-)

[silverback]

thanks Brian thats a will do , were having a good look this weekend, also gonna look at moving the spare wheel from under the axle and rigging something up front

Thanks for taking the time too Mel B, to seaerch them posts (i tried and it didnt work) had a look at them, they were good reading and gave me some ideas

i will post when rollerteam, don amott, svtech get back to me

jonathan

[silverback]

Just an update on the situation,

ive taken the spare wheel from underneath the rear axle bracket( cos i didnt fancy crawling under there in the rain if i had a flat anyway) and ive put it in a nice wheel cover and it fits behind the passenger seat very snugly, that way its nearer the front axle and it also evens the weight up between me and the missus!( i wish!!)

im still waiting on rollerteam to get back to me regarding if it has the correct plate on

Don Amott never bothered to reply to 3 emails (!) so i dont think i will bother buying owt from them (!)

the good news is SVTECH say i can uprate to 3500kg / 1750 on the front / 1900 on the back :D all for the princely sum of £240 + vat, thats no suspension alterations just paperwork

they also said i could go upto 3700 if they put air suspension on the back for approx £500 + vat + fitting (thats air suss and docs)

 

Does anybody know if i can do this paper uprate myself?

jonathan

[Derek Uzzell]

silverback - 2010-02-23 8:08 PM

 

Does anybody know if i can do this paper uprate myself?

jonathan

 

If you knew exactly what SVTech's 'paper uprating' exercise involved, obtained a replacement VIN-plate with the altered weights and could persuade the DVLA to accept your DIY uprating, then I guess the answer would be Yes. Realistically, you'd be wise to let SVTech take responsibility, as there are legal and insurance-related implications in altering a vehicle's original weight limits.

[Brian Kirby]

silverback - 2010-02-23 8:08 PM ............ the good news is SVTECH say i can uprate to 3500kg / 1750 on the front / 1900 on the back :D all for the princely sum of £240 + vat, thats no suspension alterations just paperwork they also said i could go upto 3700 if they put air suspension on the back for approx £500 + vat + fitting (thats air suss and docs) Does anybody know if i can do this paper uprate myself? jonathan

What that gives you is the same axle limits as for the Fiat standard 3,400 Kg chassis.  I know that, because we had one! 

As your present plate says 3,200Kg, the uprating, as a paper exercise, seems a bit odd to me.  The implication of what you are being told is that the 3,400Kg chassis, and the 3,200Kg chassis are identical, including brakes, suspension, wheels and tyres.  If they are, then you win!!  However, I can't see the advantage to Fiat, in selling a cheaper 3,200Kg van that is, in fact, a more expensive 3,400Kg van, in disguise.  It may have to do with market share, but it just doesn't seem to make sense. 

I therefore think it may be worth your while re-checking this with SV Tech, to make quite sure there is no misunderstanding, but also checking with Fiat technical, or your nearest Fiat commercial workshop, to see if the various parts are, in fact, identical.  After all, if they have made a mistake, you'd be the one driving what would be, irrespective of its paper legality, an overloaded van, with implications for inadequate braking, sub standard handling, and possible tyre failure!  Do SV Tech want the van taken to them for inspection, or are they saying they can do this purely as a desk exercise, merely from your vehicle's VIN?  If it is just a desk exercise, make absolutely sure that have the VIN exactly right, and also see what your nearest Fiat commercial workshop comes up with against the same number.  I'm not familiar with their procedures, but something doesn't seem quite to gel, to me.