Water ingress or leak?

[Barbarian]

Hello folks, I have not been on this site for quite some time for a variety of reasons. But I am here for your help if you can! It is a bit long winded but please read on, thank you.

We have recently changed our Motorhome to a 2 berth, 2007 Autocruise Starspirit on a new shape MWB Peugeot Boxer 2.2HDi. This van has a 'U' shaped rear lounge which makes up the sleeping area. We bought the M/H in July 2010 with only 4890 miles from new.

We have had a full Peugeot Service carried out as it had not had a Service stamp from new, presumably due to the low mileage. There are no original dealer/supplier details in the book. The 3 year warranty elapsed on 10 August 2010.

Right, that's the brief history, now the problem.

On our first trip away we went to stay with Family in Essex, taking our 6 year old Grandaughter. We did not use the Motorhome for sleeping for the first 2 nights as we were at a house. We were reverse parked on a drive nose down, from Friday evening to Sunday afternoon during which time there was quite a considerable rainfall.

On the Sunday we went to a CL nearby with our Grandaughter, when setting up we were putting some water in the fresh tank using a hose pipe through the window, when we lifted the cushions, BEFORE placing the hose pipe, we found the cushions at the back and rear nearside corners were wet underneath! On inspection we found the wood under the cushions was wet, not damp. The area is immediately above the rear outside locker door so we looked in the locker it was all bone dry. Initially we thought it may have been a spillage by our Grandaughter and just took out the cushions to dry in the now improved weather.

Later the same week when it rained we checked and found the same area to be dry. But when we came home, after some more rain we had arranged to have some rear cushion covers made, when we took them out it was wet again from the back for a distance of 28 inches along the nearside and again the underside of the cushions were wet. What we did see this time though was what appears to be previous wet areas, mottled black spots on the wood across the back of the van under the cushions?

We have a damp meter the walls and inside the cupboards are all dry, there are no water marks or runs evident in or around the the wet area, the only wet area is under the cushions so the ingress is not from above. So the question is has anyone out there had any similar problems with this model van? If so how was it resolved? If not does anyone have any ideas to help? Thank you

[Guest JudgeMental]

sorry cant help as I dont know the van..but normally the water can come from the failure of a seal around a window or a roof light? and can run down till it finds a gap.

 

A lesson to others not to buy a van without the yearly damp checks being entered in the service manual? The damp /water ingress guarantee is normally for 6 years...absolute madness to ignore this IMO either when purchasing or maintaining a van

[flicka]

Hi

As it is wet rather than damp would eliminate condensation & as there is no evidence of Water running down would suggest

I don't understand why the Water tank was filled through the Window ?

& not Water Filler connection.

Could it possibly be that it is from the lid to the Water Tank was not replaced & water has splashed UP out of the Tank & hitting the underside of the locker top & seat cushion bases.

Alternatively if filling the water tank through the window it could have overfilled and the normal filler pipe has leaked "backwash"

 

Regarding the vehicle documents - if you purchased from a Dealer they should at least be able to obtain the relevant Manuals for you.

If bought privately I would go back to the seller asking them to have another look to see if they can locate them for you.

 

Autocruise dealers in your area can be found here:-

http://www.autocruise.co.uk/find-a-dealer/properties/region-yorkshire--lincolnshire

[Barbarian]

Hi and thank you,

 

Flicka, I know what you mean about why fill the water through the window, it was our first outing with this vehicle and I forgot to put the filler pipe in but I did have a flat hose with me that has only ever been used for fresh water. We did not fill the tank above half as we were only on the site for the one stopover night and prefer not to weigh the van down when on the road.

 

But having said that we found the wet before usuing the hose, it was when we lifted the cushions to put the hose in through the window that we discovered the wet. The fresh water tank had been fully drained before we set off anf this was the first fill so nothing to splash around! There are no water run marks down the inside below the windows or anywhere. We had the damp meter in the van and used it straight away before it had a chance to dry out, it showed no other signs of damp except the wet area where the cushions rest and cushions. We have checked it from roof to floor with no other damp showing.

 

I will email Swift who now own the Autocruise marque to ask if they can help and keep you posted. Thanks again

[Brian Kirby]

Water has many tricks, but is generally simple stuff and, left to its own devices, it just follows gravity.  From your description, the seat in question is beneath a window, and the window is a hole in the wall, so my bet is that the window is leaking onto the seat.  Remove all cushions so that you can see exactly what is going on, and get someone to play a hose on the outside in the area of the window.  No need for a jet, just replicate heavy rain, while you watch on the inside.  I suspect this may tell you where it is coming out, and that may give the clue as to where it is getting in.

If you bought from a dealer, take it back and tell them it leaks, and where from, and ask them to remedy.  If you didn't, you'll either have to DIY, or take to a dealer with a decent workshop to get the leak fixed.

Don't understand the bit about filling via the window: a hose will fill through the filler point just as effectively, and a lot more safely, than via a window.  As to weight of a full tank of water, what is the concern?  You'll never see the difference in fuel consumption.  If it is payload, then the usable margin must be very small.

[Mel B]

Filling throught the window ... if this is this one of the those models with the daft filler that you have to use an external portable water tank with and fill via a pump - that may account for the hose through the window fiasco.

 

A damp meter will give some idea of where there is damp in the structure already, a necessity I'd say to establish the extent of the problem.

 

If it is condensation then removing the cusions to allow the areas to dry and see if the damp re-appears still with them removed after a downpoor will let you know if it is condensation of not.

[colin]

Did it only happen after driving in wet conditions? in which case could it be spray from rear wheels or air pressure forcing water in throu some other joint.

[Barbarian]

Hello again, Thank you all for the advice, ideas and suggestions.

We have had two recent heavy overnight rainfalls this week, during the first downfall my wife was woken up by it at 4am and decided it would be a good time to go out to check the van.....it was bone dry! I checked it at 8.30 the same morning......bone dry! The day after it rained again....... bone dry!

The next plan is to wait until it rains, at a reasonable hour, and take the van for a drive with one of us sitting in the back watching.

We have tried the hose pipe test and it stayed dry!

Regarding putting the fresh water in through the window, I did explain it was only because I forgot the filler pipe and we filled it via the top cap on the tank, it was a one off better than nothing fix, please forgive, it will not happen again! :$

Thank you all for taking the time to assist.

[Brian Kirby]

Barbarian - 2010-09-09 12:00 AM ..............Regarding putting the fresh water in through the window, I did explain it was only because I forgot the filler pipe and we filled it via the top cap on the tank, it was a one off better than nothing fix, please forgive, it will not happen again! .........

What I think we are all struggling to understand, is why/how the medium used for filling via the top inspection cap could not have been used via the filler point.  After all, if you used a hose, why would it not have gone in through the filler point, ditto watering can, etc etc?

[Keithl]

Also it may be worth 'tipping' the van to different angles with rolling blocks or similar to see if the water is getting in elsewhere and only appearing at a certain angle. Remember the potential leak could be a long way from where the water is appearing so try spraying your hose around other windows and all over the roof.

Or, could it be leaking from a side window only when being driven when the air pressure is forcing it in?

 

Keith.

[Barbarian]

Hello again,

 

Brian, my fresh water tank is filled using an Ultraflow Waterline fitted with a food quality pipe and a special pressure reducing adaptor. The filler point does not accept a standard hose / watering can etc. only the filling adaptor, described above. I forgot to replace this pipe for our first outing in our 'new to us' Motorhome, which is why I had to fill through the top cap as that is the only other way to access the fresh tank. I have never come across this 'Ultraflow' method of filling the fresh tank before, I hope this clarifies that part of my thread.

 

I am still waiting for the rain to come at an hour that we can go out in the van to check it on the move, I can't believe that it has not rained during the day this week!

 

Regards to all - Barbarian

[Brian Kirby]

Barbarian - 2010-09-11 1:43 AM Hello again, Brian, my fresh water tank is filled using an Ultraflow Waterline fitted with a food quality pipe and a special pressure reducing adaptor. The filler point does not accept a standard hose / watering can etc. only the filling adaptor, described above. I forgot to replace this pipe for our first outing in our 'new to us' Motorhome, which is why I had to fill through the top cap as that is the only other way to access the fresh tank. I have never come across this 'Ultraflow' method of filling the fresh tank before, I hope this clarifies that part of my thread. .........

Thanks for the reply, I've never heard of that either!  Yer lives and yer learns!  :-)  Sounds an almighty fuss compared to a glorified petrol cap, and a hole straight into the tank, like ours.

Good luck with the leak.  Let's hope it was just an abnormal occurrence.

[Guest Tracker]

I had a leak from around the insert that fits into the hole in the tank into which the tank cap screws on my Starburst's water tank.

 

This only manifested itself on the move and took me a day or two to figure out - but was very easy to remove the fitting and sealit properly - which cured that problem.

[Mel B]

Brian Kirby - 2010-09-13 7:40 PM

Barbarian - 2010-09-11 1:43 AM Hello again, Brian, my fresh water tank is filled using an Ultraflow Waterline fitted with a food quality pipe and a special pressure reducing adaptor. The filler point does not accept a standard hose / watering can etc. only the filling adaptor, described above. I forgot to replace this pipe for our first outing in our 'new to us' Motorhome, which is why I had to fill through the top cap as that is the only other way to access the fresh tank. I have never come across this 'Ultraflow' method of filling the fresh tank before, I hope this clarifies that part of my thread. .........

Thanks for the reply, I've never heard of that either!  Yer lives and yer learns!  :-)  Sounds an almighty fuss compared to a glorified petrol cap, and a hole straight into the tank, like ours.

Good luck with the leak.  Let's hope it was just an abnormal occurrence.

My goodness! I knew something Brian didn't!!!!!!! :->

[Mel B]

colin - 2010-09-06 11:28 PM

 

Did it only happen after driving in wet conditions? in which case could it be spray from rear wheels or air pressure forcing water in throu some other joint.

 

This is definitely a possibility - we had a 2001 Swift Suntor 590RS from new and on our first 2 week holiday we went to southern Ireland ... and it rained very heavily for most of the time (doesn't it always? *-) ). On site one day after a bit of travelling in very heavy rain, I ventured under the side settee to be faced with an indoor 'swimming pool', there must have been at least an inch of water sloshing about in there, it bust our video camera, fortunately the TV was okay, but everything stored under there was soaked through. Panic stations - everything was turfed out and rung and hung where it could be (yes it was still raining!) and the 'pool' dried out. As we were only at the end of our first week, all we could do was put everything in plastic bin bags and put towels in the base to try to stop any water that got in whilst travelling - it appeared to be coming in from the end of the seat base nearest the rear storage cupboard where the gas locker was.

 

When we returned home we immediately contacted the dealer who immediately got in touch with Swift who, to give them their due, were very concerned and wanted to see the 'van themselves. As we live just a stone's throw away from their factory that wasn't a problem. I took it round and after 3 of them had crawled all over it they told me they had found that the gas drop vent, which apparently was an oblong one, about 8 inches by 2 inches (I think!), had been put in badly and there was a gap of half an inch round it which hadn't been sealed properly (if at all). As this vent sat just behind the rear wheel the spray thrown up from the wheel was being directed into it and it was then travelling along, round the inside of the wheel arch, to the settee base. Swift kept the van for 2 weeks to dry out and rectify the problem, and the dealer paid for the video camera to be repaired (£100) so that was okay, and we never had a repeat of the problem which we kept for another year.

 

But, it could still be condensation as it is surprising just how WET cushions etc can get - we've had this in a van previously and sometimes the walls were very, very wet indeed, if you put your hands on them, you would think you'd just put them in a bow of water, but there definitely wasn't a water leak, just condensation. It could be that condensation is being caused and it is sitting at the back of the cushions as it can't easily dry out from there, but my money's now more on the first option of it getting in somehow whilst you're travelling and 'creeping'.

 

Happy hunting.

 

:-S

[Barbarian]

Hello all, we are very grateful to all of you who have shown an interest and taken the time to think about it and respond.

The current situation is that we have had some quite heavy downfalls recently but not when we able to move the vehicle. There has been no new wet during the rain when stationary.

I am almost sure that it is not condensation, because we have a damp meter in the van and when it was all wet there was nothing registering on the walls or even below the wet area.

The wet area is close to the fresh water tank but it was empty at the time, we discovered the wet by lifting the cushions to access the tank to fill it. The only other nearby external opening (apart from the window) is a small locker door below the wet area, but this was dry underneath.

Autocruise is now owned by the Swift Group, I contacted them by email, they reponded by telling me they took over the marque in 2008 and as mine is a 2007 model any warranty for water ingress is void, the bottom line is, they are not interested.

As soon as we get the opportunity we will go for a drive when raining with one of us in the back watching, in the meantime 'watch this space' and we keep you all updated, Thanks again.

 

 

[Guest Tracker]

Typical Swift response!

 

That the wet is close to the water tank would make me highly suspicious of the tank or it's pipework and tap and especially the filler hose?

 

Have you tried filling the tank to look for leaks when parked - and then driving the van to see if the water sloshes about enough to leak?

[flicka]

Hi Ian

Still trying to get my head around your problem.

I understand fully what tracker is saying, as I went out with a 3/4full tank last week and after 40 miles was almost down to 1/2 tank. Loss was due to water sloshing up the overflow & out. But you said that initially the Water Tank was empty.

Is there any possibility that the hatchcover above the Water Tank was not in position correctly ?

If not could it be water thrown up from underneath the van. Any dirty water marks around the hatch area would be an indicator.

But also any accumulated water lying on the top of the water tank could also enter this way.

[alf]

Surely there is a wooden lid to the locker and the cushion on top of this if only the bottom of cushion is wet this points to a window leak possibly not been closed properly and over several days the water drained to the bottom of the cushion leaving the top dry.

 

If there is a lid to the locker it is unlikly that water would go through this to wet the cushion surely ?

 

When testing for a water leak most times it is better to set up a garden sprinkler to simulate rain and leave running a while,

sometimes the deluge by just the hose is too much.

 

Alf

[Mel B]

I've found an advert showing the rear nearside corner of an Autocruise Starspirit which I assume is the same as yours.

 

starspirit

 

Re-reading your post and looking at the pictures the gas locker is above your rear wheel arch, the bottom of the gas locker also appears to be at roughly the same height as your settees.

 

The area is immediately above the rear outside locker door so we looked in the locker it was all bone dry.

 

Later the same week when it rained we checked and found the same area to be dry. But when we came home, after some more rain we had arranged to have some rear cushion covers made, when we took them out it was wet again from the back for a distance of 28 inches along the nearside and again the underside of the cushions were wet. What we did see this time though was what appears to be previous wet areas, mottled black spots on the wood across the back of the van under the cushions?

 

I would therefore be highly suspicious of the gas locker drop out vent which must be close to, or at the top of, the rear wheel arch, and could be letting water in (see my earlier posting regarding the problem we had with it letting in water on our Swift). You could try simulating the spray from the wheel onto the inner upper side of the wheel arch/gas drop out vent and see if it eventually finds its way into the interior. If it does, then it would simply creep along behind the seat cushions on the nearside, which is where your soggy bits are.

 

As you are certain it's not coming in from above, and there are very few other places it can be getting in, but places like above the rear locker (ie via the seal) is a possibility as this too seems to be possibly at the right height. It's a case of donning your Sherlock Holmes deerstalker and getting out your hose pipe (rather than a magnifying glass!).

 

I'd just about put money on it being something to do with the gas locker though ....

 

:-S

[alf]

Mel could you check your link it just brings up a blank page

 

Alf

[Guest Tracker]

In the original Starspirit the water tank was under the floor? Has this changed to internal in the later models because unless water can run uphill an underfloor tank should not cause internal water problems unless a hose is split or undone?

[flicka]

Tracker - 2010-09-15 2:43 PM

 

In the original Starspirit the water tank was under the floor? Has this changed to internal in the later models because unless water can run uphill an underfloor tank should not cause internal water problems unless a hose is split or undone?

 

But I was guessing there is a hatch in the floor above the Tank, for access & if that was not in place then roadspray could be entering via the hatch.

 

Having said that, looking at Mel B's comments, I found another group of photos that rules the above out as the hatch can be seen in the centre of the van floor

Mel B's look highly probable, it would not need to enter via the "drop vent" as it could be forced UP the Gas locker external wall from the rear wheel.

see http://www.johnscross.co.uk/productimage.php?product_id=2631

(1st photo shows the Gas locker is immediately behind the rear wheel arch & 2nd shows the access hatch position)

 

[Guest Tracker]

From memory there is indeed a hatch in the floor for access to the water tank but as the tank top cap is several inches below floor level I think it highly unlikely that water would get in there as the tank is partly insulated and whilst not tightly sealed there is not much room for water to splash up.

 

The gas locker at the o/s rear just forward of the boiler - strange locations for both I always thought - as I recall is stepped down so that it's floor is lower than the van's internal floor in order to get the gas bottles below seat height which would make that difficult as a source of water ingress?

 

Having looked again at the original posting I think maybe the water tank is a red herring as it is nowhere near where the wet is being found - which in turn is not always where it comes in?

 

If it were rainwater splashing up from the rotating wheels you would expect the inside underbed locker floor to be wet too?

 

As I recall the outside locker doors are lower than the top of the seat bases so unless there a gap in the seal large enough to let copious volumes of water in I struggle to see that as the cause - although I still have suspicions!

 

Which leaves the windows side and/or rear as next suspect - although a window leak would not explain water ingress when on the move only

 

Which leaves a thought that is terrifying - leakage through body panels flexing and not being properly sealed where they join in the corner?

 

I do hope I have got that wrong - is there an update from the owner that might shed more light!

 

Previous damp marks and black spots might not have been a prior leak as condensation can form under the beds at night - another possible red herring?

[alf]

Tracker

Where did the OP say leak only occurd when on the move only

 

he said and I quote " We did not use the Motorhome for sleeping for the first 2 nights as we were at a house. We were reverse parked on a drive nose down, from Friday evening to Sunday afternoon during which time there was quite a considerable rainfall. " it was after this before moving it he found the wet cushions.

 

This leads me to think of a window leak more than likely fron a newish van on its first trip away.

He also reports all other areas dry when tested with a damp meter.

When the OP sorts it I hope he reports back

 

Alf