Microblackcat Posted March 20, 2017 Share Posted March 20, 2017 Sounds interesting ! Can you give a bit more detail ? Why SRBF ?, & what size mesh did you use (I assume it's stainless steel or zinc ?) SRBF because I had a lot kicking around, no4 mesh which is 4 wires per inch, in stainless. Two layers of SRBF with the stainless sandwiched between, stuck together with a Silkaflex type adhesive, can't recall the thickness of SRBF offhand, at a guess was 8mm cross member side 2mm inlet side. Brilliant .. thanks. Do you fit it to the 'moving' bonnet side or the fixed inlet ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted March 20, 2017 Share Posted March 20, 2017 Endoscope: I am not sure of the technology of the Air Mass Meter on the X250, but if is 'Hot Wire' then you do need to be really. So long as you are shouldn't cause any damage that I can think of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted March 20, 2017 Share Posted March 20, 2017 Microblackcat - 2017-03-20 10:37 AM Sounds interesting ! Can you give a bit more detail ? Why SRBF ?, & what size mesh did you use (I assume it's stainless steel or zinc ?) SRBF because I had a lot kicking around, no4 mesh which is 4 wires per inch, in stainless. Two layers of SRBF with the stainless sandwiched between, stuck together with a Silkaflex type adhesive, can't recall the thickness of SRBF offhand, at a guess was 8mm cross member side 2mm inlet side. Brilliant .. thanks. Do you fit it to the 'moving' bonnet side or the fixed inlet ? On the x250 the inlet starts on the crossmember at top of grill, the intake in bonnet is for heater. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Microblackcat Posted March 20, 2017 Share Posted March 20, 2017 Thanks .. you live and learn every day :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted March 20, 2017 Share Posted March 20, 2017 spospe - 2017-03-19 10:11 PM I used to work in telecommunications, designing, installing and maintaining telephone exchanges. The exchanges ran on 50 volts dc and Section fuses were commonly rated at 125 and 250 amps. The power distribution was done with copper bus-bars which were joined together at intersections and equipment racks by means of lapped joints. The method of ensuring a good low resistance joint was to coat the bus-bars with petroleum jelly and then file them lightly through the jelly. The jelly and filings were not removed afterwards and the two bus-bars were then bolted together. All these joints were in 'dry' locations and the system worked perfectly for the life of an exchange (20+ years). This method could be used for earth straps and would ensure the lowest possible resistance for the connection points as well as offering some protection from damp in less than 'dry' locations. Spospe, I can see the benefit of a Petroleum Jelly/Vaseline being able to protect the area. I had always been told that Petroleum Jelly was an insulator. When treating Automotive battery terminals on cars in the 1970's, the Garage where I did Student Summer work experience, taught me to smear it on, only after assembly. In other words it was to cover the battery terminals to seal out Acid gas, but not use it between the battery post and the battery Clamp. But my thinking changed 2 weeks ago when someone I have great respect for said it is not an insulator and was commonly used, exactly as you say above, with very good conducting and protective results. As Microblackcat says above, "you live and learn every day". However, another conversation this week noted that Vaseline has a 'low melting' point of just 100 degrees F and can release a flammable Vapour. I was pointed to this web site : https://www.w8ji.com/dielectric_grease_vs_conductive_grease.htm On this website, all of which seems to read as plausible, it states, "The primary shortfall of Vaseline is the very low melting point. Most brands or types liquefy at around 100 degrees F, just above human body temperature. While this may be a medical benefit when coating human skin, it is a serious problem with connector applications, unless we do not care about grease running where we do not want or we do not care about drying over time. The second petroleum jelly issue is Vaseline's release of flammable vapor, even at low temperatures. A cotton ball soaked in Vaseline will burn a very long time, and actually makes a good fire starter. Since connectors are often near insulation or other things that can act like wicks, petroleum jelly is not the best thing. This is especially true when the grease migrates in warm temperatures". Having broken my belief that Grease and Vaseline were insulators, triggered me to think more about this. I regularly use a grease/paste to mount Power transistors to improve both Heat and Electrical flow without really accepting that it actually was a 'grease'!! So having adjusted to the use of PJ, and having previously bought a jar for the Tool box, I now don't know what to believe. It does seem that while Vaseline may be suitable in some areas, a hot engine bay with Turbo high temperatures may not be it's strength? The website does advocate pure Grease, so maybe High melting point bearing grease might be a better option that will both improve conductivity and protect? Maybe?????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spospe Posted March 20, 2017 Share Posted March 20, 2017 Petroleum jelly / Vaseline does indeed have a low melting point and becomes quite runny at even slightly elevated temperatures.However it was only used in very small quantities when joining the bus-bars together (only the mating faced were covered) and all the visible jelly was wiped off after the joint had been resistance tested, This meant that in effect there was no visible jelly to cause a problem. My suggestion for using jelly to improve the conductivity of earth joins for internal combustion engines is assuming using the same technique i.e do not slather the joint in large quantities of jelly, just use it on the mating faces and maybe a wipe over the rest of the joint. I have never had a problem in over 50 years of motoring and do not think that if used sensibly there is any risk. I have seen a 125 amp Section fuse (adjacent to a 'jelly' joint) in a telephone exchange go with a loud bang, but there was no fire, or anything which looked even slightly dangerous from the joint itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted March 20, 2017 Share Posted March 20, 2017 My understanding is that oils and greases work like a skier being towed over water. The skier is only held up when sliding over the water, as soon as he stops, he sinks. So if you have terminals clamped together you will still have metal to metal contact whether they are coated with grease or not - because there is no sliding movement to separate the metal surfaces.. So even though grease is not a good conductor, it won't cause any resistance - just protect the surfaces from corrosion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 I have been using high temperature Copper Slip for many years now and have never experienced any negative effects with it. I use it on battery terminals, earth straps and their fixings and even light bulbs to help prevent corrosion of the bulb and holders, albeit in very small amounts. It does dry out slightly on the surface but seems to remain fluid under the surface. Maybe worth giving it a try? Just as an example, there are many brands available... https://www.amazon.co.uk/Comma-CE500G-500g-Copper-Ease/dp/B003BPNOFO Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Microblackcat Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 colin - 2017-03-20 5:49 PM Microblackcat - 2017-03-20 10:37 AM Sounds interesting ! Can you give a bit more detail ? Why SRBF ?, & what size mesh did you use (I assume it's stainless steel or zinc ?) SRBF because I had a lot kicking around, no4 mesh which is 4 wires per inch, in stainless. Two layers of SRBF with the stainless sandwiched between, stuck together with a Silkaflex type adhesive, can't recall the thickness of SRBF offhand, at a guess was 8mm cross member side 2mm inlet side. Brilliant .. thanks. Do you fit it to the 'moving' bonnet side or the fixed inlet ? On the x250 the inlet starts on the crossmember at top of grill, the intake in bonnet is for heater. Thanks Colin. So .. tearing myself away from the subsequent discussions on the alternative use of Vaseline ... I had a poke about trying to find the air intake below the crossmember over the top of grill/radiator .. I notice two rectangular pressed cut-outs both sides of centreline, but also a number of smaller pressed holes for cables etc, that a mouse could also get in to. I notice that the intake 'appears' to be fixed to the crossmember pressing and I assume you fixed your mesh between the two ? If I'm correct, if I unscrew the two screws holding the intake flange to the crossmember pressing, will it just pull out and is this where you sandwiched your mesh assembly ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 Just popped the bonnet and remembered I had changed my plans and instead of sandwiching between two layers of SRBF had used one layer but clamped it down to second layer covered in parcel tape(? ) then on setting removed second layer and tape so as to keep thickness to minimum whilst giving 8mm gap on crossmember side. If you take appart you will see why, the plastic part bells out bigger than hole in crossmember, so with the mesh set back 8mm then the hole in SRBF can be bigger than hole in crossmember this means there is no reduction in airflow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Microblackcat Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 colin - 2017-03-22 9:23 AM Just popped the bonnet and remembered I had changed my plans and instead of sandwiching between two layers of SRBF had used one layer but clamped it down to second layer covered in parcel tape(? ) then on setting removed second layer and tape so as to keep thickness to minimum whilst giving 8mm gap on crossmember side. If you take appart you will see why, the plastic part bells out bigger than hole in crossmember, so with the mesh set back 8mm then the hole in SRBF can be bigger than hole in crossmember this means there is no reduction in airflow. Thank you Colin for taking the photos .. this is what I had in mind so you've confirmed the finished solution. I will investigate by removal. Maybe I can do a 3D print for the spacer once I've got a better idea. Raining now and off for a few days in the van so a project for next week now .. once I've sourced the mesh .. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/151682102640?var=450885966503&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&fromMakeTrack=true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 Microblackcat - 2017-03-22 9:47 AM Thank you Colin for taking the photos .. this is what I had in mind so you've confirmed the finished solution. I will investigate by removal. Maybe I can do a 3D print for the spacer once I've got a better idea. Raining now and off for a few days in the van so a project for next week now .. once I've sourced the mesh .. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/151682102640?var=450885966503&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&fromMakeTrack=true Close, but no4, 0.9, 5.45 gives 74% flow. IIRC I made the hole in SRBF approx 1/3 larger in area than the hole in crossmember, well as close as I could get to 1/3 bigger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flicka Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 Like Keithl Copper slip for me on battery terminals. Now (well when it's dry :-( ) think I'll have a go at the Earth Strap connections also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyishuk Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 Asking if this has happened elsewhere ? My local garage put on a extra earth strap, then removed the old earth strap, cleaned up the joint faces and reconnected it. I have the feeling the battery was not disconnected during the operation, as there would have been earth continuity as there was always an earth connection. Since then I have had the engine management light come on twice. First, it was a limp home setting that came on almost immediately as I left the garage, they obd'ed and it seemed to say tha an exhaust valve remained open (apologies, as in the heat of the moment, I probably got that wrong!?) the error was cancelled, drove off, no problem. 2nd time, after 15miles the light has come on but no limp mode, so the vehicle is drivable. I did not check the Obd reading as the garage was closed. I did disconnect the battery and copper slip the terminal. Reconnected and the fault was cleared on startup, as I assume the ecu reset itself. Another test drive tomorrow to see what happens, Similar happened to anyone else ? Whilst on the subject, is there a recommendation for an Obd2 reader that is known to work well with x250 ( ( year 2009) vintage ? Rgds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spospe Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 tonyishuk - 2017-04-08 4:40 PM Whilst on the subject, is there a recommendation for an Obd2 reader that is known to work well with x250 ( ( year 2009) vintage ? I have the previous version of this: Link to OBD Tool It works well: not a professional device, but OK for casual use. It cleared some fault codes on my daughter's Skoda and they never came back. (Link shortened to fit page by Keithl) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike88 Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 The link states that code reader is not suitable for vans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Microblackcat Posted April 11, 2017 Share Posted April 11, 2017 colin - 2017-03-22 8:02 PM Microblackcat - 2017-03-22 9:47 AM Thank you Colin for taking the photos .. this is what I had in mind so you've confirmed the finished solution. I will investigate by removal. Maybe I can do a 3D print for the spacer once I've got a better idea. Raining now and off for a few days in the van so a project for next week now .. once I've sourced the mesh .. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/151682102640?var=450885966503&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&fromMakeTrack=true Close, but no4, 0.9, 5.45 gives 74% flow. IIRC I made the hole in SRBF approx 1/3 larger in area than the hole in crossmember, well as close as I could get to 1/3 bigger. Getting a bit off-topic still, so apologies but wanting to update this thread. I have now fitted an air filter inlet mesh grill to mouse-proof the air filter etc. Copies of photos on Facebook here .. https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1878001849132457.1073741835.100007679799747&type=1&l=09907449fd I increased the area to make up for loss .. the mesh I used was about 68% area compared with no mesh. Road testing does not detect any loss of power .. but the pesky engine warning light still shines brightly :-S Thanks for the ideas guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbo Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 Update on my last post of 13 March 17 @ 11.11pm. Since then I've added: A) Supplementary earth cable from engine lifting point to chassis using battery cable. B) Supplementary battery cable from alternator B+ terminal to 12v stub in engine bay (for emergency starting). C) 7mm square cable from negative post on starter battery to B1- on CBE distribution box. Monitored voltage at 12v stub with engine running (no load). Initial voltage was 14.41v but after 10 minutes this had dropped to 14.21v (and gradually declining). Volt drop at stub 0.19v (under load) Volt drop at SB 0.02v (no load), 0.22v (under load) Volt drop at LB 0.06v (no load), 0.49v (under load) NB. Volt drop relative to voltage at stub. Load 170w fridge + 2 x 55w headlights, about 23amps. The alternator charging is working much better now but still not perfect. I obviously travel with the fridge on and often with the headlights on as well. I'm starting to think I may have a lazy alternator. Also with the fridge on 12v, I measured only 13.0v at the heating coil. Replaced the 30amp relay but no improvement. Any comments would be gratefully received as I'm running out of ideas :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted April 17, 2017 Share Posted April 17, 2017 You tell us where the you had the positive probe of the meter, but where was the negative probe? Did readings change if you used a different negative point, like altering between the chassis, the battery or the Alternator body? To work out the state of the Alternator, your readings must be taken at the Alternator, both positive and negative to rule out any other issues? The other point is that, unless the Alternator was running at about 2,000 rpm engine speed, it's output at idle will be relatively low. So if you are drawing 23 amps, I would expect the voltage to drop, even if everything was healthy, because you are most likely taking more out of the battery than you are putting back? Remember the load of the ECU, Injectors, etc as well on top of the 23amps? This obviously depends on the Alternator size and the Engine set-up. If you want to take 'big amps' readings to get true voltage drop figures, exactly as you are, you need to be sure your Alternator is putting in more than you taking out. Given the conditions, I would suggest you have a good Alternator? I now have one of those 'voltmeters in a Cigarette Lighter plug' that I now plug into the socket in the cab while driving and that gives a great indication of charge/Earth points. A reading of 14.4v at that socket shows that it is getting out of the Alternator/Engine Bay and into the wiring. They only cost £3 from China, see : http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Best-Digital-Mini-LED-12V-24V-Car-Vehicle-System-Voltage-Gauge-Volt-Meter-BH-/311797947905?hash=item48989b1e01:g:rsoAAOSwLVZVnNGO For a pound or two more some have a built in USB charge socket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbo Posted April 18, 2017 Share Posted April 18, 2017 Many thanks Allan (A&N caravans) for your reply. I'm pretty happy with the chassis/earth connections now. Following your post, I rechecked the system using a test lead from the alternator body and recorded the voltages to the 12v + stub and SB + terminal. Similarly, voltages recorded between the 12v + stub and SB + terminal and their respective chassis earth for comparison purposes. No difference in voltages between the two methods. Think this proves that the alternator earth bonding is satisfactory. Tests were under no load condition. The alternator is rated at 140amps with a marked range of 75 to 140. I had assumed that with the alternator running at idle speed the minimum 75amps would be achieved and this would easily overcome the 23amp load including engine related draw. I'm ordering the digital ciggy monitoring device so that should be very useful in seeing what's going on in real life driving conditions. Overall, I'm very pleased with the improvements in charging, following your suggested modifications to the wiring. The only niggle that remains is the gradually deminishing voltage. Yesterday, I monitored the voltage with no load. It started at 14.40v, after 5 minutes it was 14.29v and after 10 minutes it was 14.26v. Perhaps the alternator voltage regulator needs replacing? Many thanks again Allan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spospe Posted April 20, 2017 Share Posted April 20, 2017 Mike88 - 2017-04-08 9:51 PM The link states that code reader is not suitable for vans. Curious. I asked the vendor why not, as my earlier version works perfectly on my X250 Peugeot. As both are OBDC2 devices so they should work on any OBDC2 vehicle. The vendors reply was: "Hi, it should then work ok. If not can be returned. Thanks" So no explanation as to why the advert says, "not suitable for vans" Maybe safer to find another vendor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Microblackcat Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 Update to my posting that started back last year !! Microblackcat - 2017-03-19 4:25 PM Microblackcat - 2016-12-23 5:17 PM Hi Nick, I know this is an old chestnut, but your name keeps coming up and I think you might be able to advise me. Fiat Ducato 2.3 - 2013 I have a wireless OBD2 device and the app tells me the code is P0124 - "Throttle/Pedal Position Sensor/Switch "A" Circuit Intermittent", and I clear the error code before each start up. The engine warning light continues to come on despite me adding an additional braided strap as suggested in a number of postings over the years. I'm convinced this IS the issue as there are no other symptoms suggesting poor running, lack of power or reduced revs etc. The new earth strap runs from the -ve earth stud by the bonnet to a convenient stud on the engine (i'm fairly confident it's connected directly to the engine as my meter shows zero ohms resistance when touching the engine stud with other parts of the engine). However, when I measure the resistance from the -ve earth stud to the engine, I can't get it to zero ohms .. it consistently reads 0.1 - 0.2 ohms. Is this enough resistance to make a difference, that would fool the sensor to think it's voltage is too low ? Curiously, due to another issue, I flattened the battery recently and had to jump start from my wife Golf. Guess what .. NO warning light illuminated !!! Once back on it's own starter battery, the dreaded warning light now reappears. Can you shed any light on these symptoms please ? Is it just a case of finding a better earth ? Thanks in anticipation. Brian Knight So .. some months on and building up a bit of familiarity with what's what under the X250 2.3 bonnet. My P0124's have disappeared and replaced themselves with P2454 & P2002, now suggesting DPF, but having thrashed it for 20 miles maintaining 3000+ rpm, no DPF regeneration was prompted, followed by 230 miles up the motorway and back this weekend with same errors. So, I plucked up courage to try and change the chassis/gearbox earth strap, first removing the air filter top & filter itself (but not the body .. looked a bit trixy) and after removing the dead mouse and orange filter crumbs, I managed to remove the earth strap (with difficulty). I had to pop off a cable/pipe connector near the gearbox end to access the hex screw. Thought I'd share a few photos for those attempting this as it might seem obvious for those in the know but a bit daunting for me .. Shots show air filter removed and both end connections .. one on gearbox (8mm hex screw) and the other on a chassis stud (8mm nyloc nut). I replaced the existing braided cable with 50mm2 pvc sheathed cable about 210mm long eye-to-eye. The existing cable actually has one 8mm crimped lug & and one lock-washer (gearbox end) with a 10mm crimped lug, but actually 8mm on both ends of the replacement cable would be better. I guess they use a 'standard' cable that's also used elsewhere. I used soldered lugs. I cleared the OBD error codes and it started up without further error, but I'm not confident it has solved the issue. I'll let you know how it goes ! Edit: Can't post the photos .. 100k limit .. what's the best way to share these ? --------------------- So .. I gave up trying to solve the Engine Management Warning light issue, and finally booked it in to Fiat Professional at Portsmouth. They determined it was a defective DPF Sensor. This was replaced and so far (early days), the issue seems to have been resolved :-) Even better news is that Fiat picked up the bill for this (after four years .. although it's been defective over a year now), but I did have some other minor paid work done at the same time. Thanks for all those that have assisted me .. in this instance it seems it wasn't an earth or alternator issue but I've learnt a lot along the way !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 A complete misunderstanding why shear bolts are used on side mirrors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 The original earth strap on my 2008 model was plain copper. My understanding is that tinned copper is beter because its less susceptible to corrosion. If you want to replace it you need a short (9" is ample) strap with 8mm holes both ends. 25mm is adequate - link: Link But thicker cable is always better, link: Link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbo Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 John52 - 2017-07-14 1:47 PM The original earth strap on my 2008 model was plain copper. My understanding is that tinned copper is beter because its less susceptible to corrosion. If you want to replace it you need a short (9" is ample) strap with 8mm holes both ends. 25mm is adequate - link: (see original post) But thicker cable is always better, link: (see original post) Can't read unfortunately - is it possible for the OP to shorten the long links ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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