C1 Driving Licence - Again

[Vernon B]

If anyone is in any doubt about the crass stupidity of the unaccountable law makers in Bruxelles, and the inability of our elected representatives in Westminster to do anything about it, take a look at pages 41 and 190 of the March edition of MMM (when you get it).

 

V

 

[Andy_C]

Vernon B - 2011-02-14 9:33 AM

 

If anyone is in any doubt about the crass stupidity of the unaccountable law makers in Bruxelles, and the inability of our elected representatives in Westminster to do anything about it, take a look at pages 41 and 190 of the March edition of MMM (when you get it).

 

V

Care to elucidate, for those of us that don't get MMM?

 

Andy

[Vernon B]

 

Hi Andy, I suppose the first thing to say is “well you should”. MMM’s a good read especially at this time of the year when most of us are off road.

 

Anyway, sorry if I was a bit vague. As the title of the post suggests, there are a couple of references to the changes in EU driving licence legislation that means car drivers who took their test after January 1 1997 no longer have an automatic right to drive vehicles over 3.5 tonnes and up to 7.5 tonnes – a category called C1.

 

The page 41 piece is an interview with a chap from Brownhills who explains how this will increasingly affect the trade as more and more potential owners fall into this category.

 

The second item on page 190 is a detailed account – too detailed to summarise here – of someone caught up in the change having recently purchased a 4.0t ‘van. She describes the tortuous process of trying to obtain the C1 licence under the new regulations. Among other things this involved a medical and taking an HGV driving test in a 7.5t lorry of all things – all at an outlay of £1,000 plus.

 

What is patently obvious is that when framing this legislation the powers that be had no comprehension of how it would impact the motorhome industry or mostly likely didn’t realise these things, mostly well below 7.5t but with many marginally above 3.5T, exist.

 

What is clear is that when the industry developed through self-build, motorcaravans, campervans, and today’s motorhomes, these vehicles were easily accommodated within the broad brush C1 category covering vehicles up to 7.5t. It’s my guess that this category was probably “invented” around the time of WW2 to allow Civies to drive military and agricultural vehicles. Notwithstanding that everything trundled along quite nicely until our lords and masters over there (so much for the outcome of the war by the way!) decided to start imposing a few more limitations on our human rights as far as what vehicle we’re entitled to drive – with the added attraction for them of adding another layer of bureaucracy to our lives and taking a few more bob from our pockets.

 

So that, from a very impartial, balanced and fair minded standard point, is what it’s all about Andy.

 

V

 

PS But you should get the full version and make your own mind up

 

 

[Andy_C]

OK thanks - nothing new then!

 

Andy

[Derek Uzzell]

Vernon B - 2011-02-14 5:48 PM

 

 

Hi Andy, I suppose the first thing to say is “well you should”. MMM’s a good read especially at this time of the year when most of us are off road.

 

Anyway, sorry if I was a bit vague. As the title of the post suggests, there are a couple of references to the changes in EU driving licence legislation that means car drivers who took their test after January 1 1997 no longer have an automatic right to drive vehicles over 3.5 tonnes and up to 7.5 tonnes – a category called C1.

 

The page 41 piece is an interview with a chap from Brownhills who explains how this will increasingly affect the trade as more and more potential owners fall into this category.

 

The second item on page 190 is a detailed account – too detailed to summarise here – of someone caught up in the change having recently purchased a 4.0t ‘van. She describes the tortuous process of trying to obtain the C1 licence under the new regulations. Among other things this involved a medical and taking an HGV driving test in a 7.5t lorry of all things – all at an outlay of £1,000 plus.

 

What is patently obvious is that when framing this legislation the powers that be had no comprehension of how it would impact the motorhome industry or mostly likely didn’t realise these things, mostly well below 7.5t but with many marginally above 3.5T, exist.

 

What is clear is that when the industry developed through self-build, motorcaravans, campervans, and today’s motorhomes, these vehicles were easily accommodated within the broad brush C1 category covering vehicles up to 7.5t. It’s my guess that this category was probably “invented” around the time of WW2 to allow Civies to drive military and agricultural vehicles. Notwithstanding that everything trundled along quite nicely until our lords and masters over there (so much for the outcome of the war by the way!) decided to start imposing a few more limitations on our human rights as far as what vehicle we’re entitled to drive – with the added attraction for them of adding another layer of bureaucracy to our lives and taking a few more bob from our pockets.

 

So that, from a very impartial, balanced and fair minded standard point, is what it’s all about Andy.

 

V

 

PS But you should get the full version and make your own mind up

 

 

Vernon,

 

What you've said is nonsense.

 

There has been no 'changes in the law' - the situation in the UK today regarding driving-licence entitlement is exactly the same as it has been since January 1, 1997.

[Keithl]

And did the big clubs not predict this would happen 14 years ago?

 

Edit in addition to Dereks comment.

 

Unfortunately it's only now that a lot of people who've passed their test after Jan 1997, and who were probably 17 or 18 at the time, are now turning to MH'ing (or even dare I say tugging large caravans).

 

Keith.

[Vernon B]

Sorry if I touched a nerve Derek. It wasn't my intention to suggest that this was a new change but simply to convey what the articles were talking about. Truth is it's a mess and is typical of where things are going.

 

V

[Brian Kirby]

It does seem very top heavy, doesn't it?  What seems to be needed is the creation of an exemption, or a special category of vehicle, to allow less onerous standards to be applied in order to gain the license.

It always seemed to me odd that anyone holding a car license, and possibly never having driven anything larger than a small hatchback, could suddenly sally forth in even a 3.5 tonne motorhome, leave alone a 7.5 tonne truck.

That extra weight does require some modification of technique.  It is also odd that one retains these rights (providing one passed the test before Jan '97) until age 70.  We all deteriorate with age, but at differing rates and in differing ways.  I think we must recognise that, and that vehicles have become larger, heavier, and generally more powerful, year on year, and that traffic levels, and general speeds, have increased year on year.  So, as each year passes, driving becomes more demanding.

Given all that, I don't think the requirement for an additional test to drive vehicles heavier than 3.5 tonnes is, in and of itself, unreasonable.  It is only the procedure surrounding the learner phase, and the actual test, that seem unduly onerous.  I feel sure the UK government, if it wanted, could relax the test requirements, without prejudicing road safety, in respect of driving motorhomes. 

For example, where a driver is intending to drive a motorhome, which does not require a tachograph, it does seem unreasonable to insist the test vehicle must have one.  Ditto the requirement that an accompanying driver must have passed the C1 test, and cannot hold that category on a grandfather's rights basis, seems unreasonable.

As to the size of vehicle in which the test is to be taken, on the basis that one can take one's B test in a Smart car, and then climb straight into the driving seat of a 3.5 tonne motorhome, it seems a bit unreasonable to lay down such strict rules for the C1 test vehicle.  It seems to me more reasonable to accept that very few motorhomes (and LCV derivatives) have MAMs exceeding 5 tonnes, and create a license category for such vehicles, on the basis of a test taken in any vehicle in that weight category.

Then the test conditions could be relaxed as to tachograph (in the case of motorhomes), but also as to vehicle weight and size, so that any vehicle (or motorhome) with a MAM between 3.5 and 5.0 tonnes would be a suitable test vehicle.

It should then become possible for any holder of a category C1 license to accompany the learner, or possibly for a category B license holder who has held their license for more than three years to drive unaccompanied, subject to displaying "L" plates until the test is passed.

I assume there must be widespread lobbying all across Europe on this issue, not just from motorhome manufacturers, but also from manufacturers of LCV derivatives that exceed MAM 3.5 tonnes, but fall below MAM 5.0 tonnes.  Perhaps the European motorhoming press should begin to raise the profile of this issue in conjunction with all affected manufacturers to gain the necessary, and fairly minor, modifications that would allow motorhomes and larger panel vans and their derivatives, to be driven without having to leap such onerous licensing hurdles.

Fulminating alone won't work.

[Derek Uzzell]

This is a 14-year old UK regulation reflecting plain commonsense. France imposed a 3500kg limit in the 1970s (which is why the market in France for motorhomes over 3500kg MAM is tiny). As far as I'm aware all EU countries have now standardised the basic 'car' driving-licence to 3500kg MAM maximum.

 

It's blindingly obvious that, as time passes, there will be less and less people with a driving-licence entitlement permitting them to drive vehicles over 3.5t MAM. If the UK motorhome industry and UK motorcaravanners are unable to understand that and sales - new and secondhand - plummet in the near future, then they have only themselves to blame.

 

It isn't "a mess" and it isn't "typical of the where things are going".

[Vernon B]

Wise words as usual Brian. Let's hope it happens for the next generation.

 

V

 

[John J Thompson]

Vernon B - 2011-02-14 5:48 PM

 

Hi Andy, I suppose the first thing to say is “well you should”. MMM’s a good read especially at this time of the year when most of us are off road.

 

 

There are those of us who are overwintering abroad who cannot get to see a copy. Getting MMM in Spain is a no no. WE will be back in the UK in May.

 

John

[Vernon B]

I'll tell you of one unintended consequence of this mess Derek - more unsafe overweight motorhomes on the road. And they're already out there with French and German drivers.

 

V

[colin]

I fail to see why any extra catogories etc should be made, it is straight forward, want to drive a vehicle between 3.5 and 7.5t then take a test in the approipriate vehicle, you could split it down to small amounts, 3.8t only just over have a 4t test, 4.5t tag axle not a lot more have a 5t test, 5.5t RV only a little more have 6t test.

If you need to be given leasons then a person who has actualy been shown to have experiance, by passing the test, gives it. This makes sence, otherwise you could have someone who's only ever driven a mini jumping in a 7.5t truck to give leasons.

[Vernon B]

Hi John J. Sorry you're missing your MMM but I'd be willing to swop mine for where you are right now.

 

V

[John J Thompson]

Brian Kirby - 2011-02-14 6:49 PM

 

As to the size of vehicle in which the test is to be taken, on the basis that one can take one's B test in a Smart car, and then climb straight into the driving seat of a 3.5 tonne motorhome,

 

You quote exactly the situation I was in in 1960 Brian.

 

I rode a motorbike from 16. At 17 I took lessons on an Austin A40. When I passed my test my employer got me to drive a Ford Thames 3.5t unladen mobile shop with a crash gearbox. This was about the size of a large motorhome. Two days with another driver and I was on my own. I had to squeeze it through back streets etc.

 

Now at 68 I drive a similar sized Motorhome and can get it into places that have confounded others in smaller vans.

 

John

[brubell]

Hii All.. this article did give me food for thought.. I have been planning to buy a car trailer suitable for a small car. to take with us when we over winter in somewhere much further south..however... since the dreaded 3 score and ten is rapidly approaching.. I am now wondering if my ( hopefully extented for another 3 years) licence will permit me to tow a braked trailer with a MAM of over 750 kilos... I passed my test in the very early 60's and I still have a paper licence showing that I am permitted to drive groups 'A' 'D' and 'E'............. no mention anywhere of C1...... currently own a M/home with MAM of 3,500 kilos... so I have no need to be driving a heavier vehicle.. just the question of whether I can TOW a heavy trailer... does anyone have any ideas?.. I have searched the gov and dvla web sites but cannot find the answer to that one anywhere.. ( I have however e-mailed the dvla.. and I am waiting for their reply.. I am glad that this article was there for me to read this month because without it I might happily have gone a spent loads of dosh on a nice sparkling new trailer.... I would not have been a happy bunny if withing 6 months I could not use it..

[Derek Uzzell]

brubell - 2011-02-15 12:16 AM

 

Hii All.. this article did give me food for thought.. I have been planning to buy a car trailer suitable for a small car. to take with us when we over winter in somewhere much further south..however... since the dreaded 3 score and ten is rapidly approaching.. I am now wondering if my ( hopefully extented for another 3 years) licence will permit me to tow a braked trailer with a MAM of over 750 kilos... I passed my test in the very early 60's and I still have a paper licence showing that I am permitted to drive groups 'A' 'D' and 'E'............. no mention anywhere of C1...... currently own a M/home with MAM of 3,500 kilos... so I have no need to be driving a heavier vehicle.. just the question of whether I can TOW a heavy trailer... does anyone have any ideas?.. I have searched the gov and dvla web sites but cannot find the answer to that one anywhere.. ( I have however e-mailed the dvla.. and I am waiting for their reply.. I am glad that this article was there for me to read this month because without it I might happily have gone a spent loads of dosh on a nice sparkling new trailer.... I would not have been a happy bunny if withing 6 months I could not use it..

 

It sounds like you have a very old 'paper' driving-licence indeed.

 

Like you, I passed my car driving test in the 1960s and I've still got a paper driving-licence. However, my licence was reissued in 1993 when we last moved house.

 

My licence is a green and pink document conforming to the European Communities standardised format (I believe earlier paper UK-issued driving licences are no longer legally acceptable outside the UK). It lists and describes vehicle categories A, B, B1, C, C1, D, D1 and E in the pink section and indicates which of those categories I have an entitlement for. In my case these are A, B, C1, D1(not for hire/reward), F, K, L, N and P.

 

I THINK (although my licence doesn't specifically say so) that I've also got the 'old' UK sub-category C1+E that would allow me to use a vehicle over 3500kg MAM to tow a trailer over 750kg MAM as long as the towing-vehicle's Gross Train Weight is not exceeded and the GTW of the towing-vehicle + trailer does not exceed 8250kg.

[Derek Uzzell]

Brian Kirby - 2011-02-14 6:49 PM

 

...I assume there must be widespread lobbying all across Europe on this issue, not just from motorhome manufacturers, but also from manufacturers of LCV derivatives that exceed MAM 3.5 tonnes, but fall below MAM 5.0 tonnes.  Perhaps the European motorhoming press should begin to raise the profile of this issue in conjunction with all affected manufacturers to gain the necessary, and fairly minor, modifications that would allow motorhomes and larger panel vans and their derivatives, to be driven without having to leap such onerous licensing hurdles...

 

In fact there was serious and prolonged lobbying from French camping-car-related organisations a few years ago seeking to have the 3500kg MAM limit of the "B" driving-licence entitlement raised for motorcaravans. If I remember correctly, the argument used was that, as a "B" licence-holder could legally drive a 3500kg MAM vehicle towing a 750kg trailer, it would be 'a good idea' to have an extra category (say "CC") for motorhomes with a MAM up to 4250kg (3500kg + 750kg) but excluding towing a trailer.

 

Funnily enough, when France implemented a 3500kg-maximum basic driving-licence rule on 20/01/1975 (that's 22 years before the UK got round to it), drivers who had passed their car driving-test before that date apparently retained 'grandfather' rights to drive heavier vehicles.

 

This was finally admitted officially by the relevant French authorities in 2009 and (if they so choose) those drivers can now have their driving licences annotated to show an entitlement permitting them to drive unlimited weight motorhomes. And "unlimited weight", means exactly that - not just 4250kg or 7500kg - the French regulation just states a vehicle overall weight exceeding 3500kg with no top limit.

[Rayjsj]

Derek Uzzell - 2011-02-14 7:00 PM

 

This is a 14-year old UK regulation reflecting plain commonsense. France imposed a 3500kg limit in the 1970s (which is why the market in France for motorhomes over 3500kg MAM is tiny). As far as I'm aware all EU countries have now standardised the basic 'car' driving-licence to 3500kg MAM maximum.

 

It's blindingly obvious that, as time passes, there will be less and less people with a driving-licence entitlement permitting them to drive vehicles over 3.5t MAM. If the UK motorhome industry and UK motorcaravanners are unable to understand that and sales - new and secondhand - plummet in the near future, then they have only themselves to blame.

 

It isn't "a mess" and it isn't "typical of the where things are going".

 

There will still be an awful lot of Motorhomes over the dreaded 3500kgs

trundling around, and until all of us 'Grandads' have shuffled off this mortal coil a lot of us will be driving them, whether this law is 'Common Sense' I beg to differ. With Load margins perilously close to maximum on even relativey new vans, the Idea of a simple 'upgrade' will always beckon.

Whether folk will be legal is another matter.

[Robinhood]

brubell - 2011-02-15 12:16 AM

 

Hii All.. this article did give me food for thought.. I have been planning to buy a car trailer suitable for a small car. to take with us when we over winter in somewhere much further south..however... since the dreaded 3 score and ten is rapidly approaching.. I am now wondering if my ( hopefully extented for another 3 years) licence will permit me to tow a braked trailer with a MAM of over 750 kilos... I passed my test in the very early 60's and I still have a paper licence showing that I am permitted to drive groups 'A' 'D' and 'E'............. no mention anywhere of C1...... currently own a M/home with MAM of 3,500 kilos... so I have no need to be driving a heavier vehicle.. just the question of whether I can TOW a heavy trailer... does anyone have any ideas?.. I have searched the gov and dvla web sites but cannot find the answer to that one anywhere.. ( I have however e-mailed the dvla.. and I am waiting for their reply.. I am glad that this article was there for me to read this month because without it I might happily have gone a spent loads of dosh on a nice sparkling new trailer.... I would not have been a happy bunny if withing 6 months I could not use it..

 

I also have a paper licence with the old groups on it (just A and E for me as I never got round to taking a motorbike test).

 

The DVLA information on this is relatively straightforward to find (BUT...), and is on the following page, where the groups are mapped to the current categories (e.g. an old group A maps to several current categories).

 

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/WhatCanYouDriveAndYourObligations/DG_180694

 

...the BUT, however, is there because it isn't specific about towing with a sub 3500kg vehicle (even though it is specific about towing with one over 3500kg!)

 

I think this is flawed as the Group A should include the B+E category, (but this is probably logically subsumed under the C1E on this particular page, as it only really becomes relevant at 70, when you potentially lose some automatic rights).

 

There is, however, more specific information on another page:

 

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/CaravansTrailersCommercialVehicles/DG_4022564

 

where the following appears:

 

"All drivers who passed a car test before 1 January 1997 retain their existing entitlement to tow trailers until their licence expires. This means they are generally entitled to drive a vehicle and trailer combination up to 8.25 tonnes MAM. They also have entitlement to drive a minibus with a trailer over 750kgs MAM."

 

So you are most certainly currently covered.

 

On renewal at 70, all things are up for grabs, and retaining the C1 right to drive a vehicle over 3500kg may be subject to a medical.

 

However, opinion (and the question is common in the 'tugging' fraternity) seems undivided that (as long as you are sure you ask, and make sure it makes it onto your renewed licence) you will retain your B+E entilement on renewal at 70, without a medical.

 

It will certainly be best to await the answer from the DVLA, but there are people out there in similar circumstances to yours that have done it.

 

HTH

[Vernon B]

Derek do you happen to know why the very sensible suggestion by the French for a CC category was "apparently" rejected?

 

V

[Derek Uzzell]

I expect it was felt that, as motorhome ownership is not enshrined in the EU Constitution and (in the case of France) 99% of camping-caristes had managed to survive for 30 years with vehicles limited to 3500kg MAM, there was little justification for special-case modification to the existing EC-wide driving-licence regulations.

[Vernon B]

Derek Uzzell - 2011-02-15 3:07 PM

 

I expect it was felt that, as motorhome ownership is not enshrined in the EU Constitution and (in the case of France) 99% of camping-caristes had managed to survive for 30 years with vehicles limited to 3500kg MAM, there was little justification for special-case modification to the existing EC-wide driving-licence regulations.

 

Oh I see - glad it makes sense to you Derek.

 

V

[colin]

Vernon B - 2011-02-15 12:16 PM

 

Derek do you happen to know why the very sensible suggestion by the French for a CC category was "apparently" rejected?

 

V

 

Why would it be sensible to have a sepperate weight catagory for motorhomes? All the MH's I can think of are commercial vehicles with a whole load of weight permanently fitted in the back and I see no reason why they should be considered different to the base vehicle.

[eljay]

Derek,

 

Being a member of a French club I am aware of a number of members who have taken advantage of this law change and up-sized their camping cars, including one with a tag-axle Hymer, and another who is definitely over 70 years of age.

 

J