kevandali Posted December 7, 2011 Author Share Posted December 7, 2011 The multi plug that I found had several wires (about 5 in all) attached. One of them was the thin brown/green wire, not the thick one. I unplugged it, and tested continuity between that plug (the brown/green wire) and the end of the brown/green wire that goes into the back of the step switch and it was ok. That left the other side of the plug with all the wires, including the brown/green wire disappearing below the floor. I then tested for voltage at the brown/green wire pin but no voltage was found. So, that still leaves the thin brown/green wire disappearing under the floor into the taped up run with no other sign of any kind of split or plug under the van that is easily seen. The whole run goes downwards from the fuses, runs all the way under the van taped and fastened in place, some wires leave the main run and go to the plug behind the pots and pans compartment under the cooker, the run then continues and comes up at the back of the gas fire where the two large connection plugs were. Apart from the plugs behind the pots and pans drawer and those behind the fire I have yet to find any more plugs where the split might be. (I bet that is as clear as mud ;-)) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 Hi Robin, certainly sounds like you and Kev made a big jump forward wiith this. It is always extremely difficult to diagnose remotely and red herrings pop up all the time as well along with confusion. Must be very frustrating you and Kev could not find the other end of the brown/green wire feeding the switch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 kevandali - 2011-12-07 5:27 PMThe multi plug that I found had several wires (about 5 in all) attached.One of them was the thin brown/green wire, not the thick one.I unplugged it, and tested continuity between that plug (the brown/green wire) and the end of the brown/green wire that goes into the back of the step switch and it was ok. That left the other side of the plug with all the wires, including the brown/green wire disappearing below the floor. I then tested for voltage at the brown/green wire pin but no voltage was found. So, that still leaves the thin brown/green wire disappearing under the floor into the taped up run with no other sign of any kind of split or plug under the van that is easily seen. The whole run goes downwards from the fuses, runs all the way under the van taped and fastened in place, some wires leave the main run and go to the plug behind the pots and pans compartment under the cooker, the run then continues and comes up at the back of the gas fire where the two large connection plugs were. Apart from the plugs behind the pots and pans drawer and those behind the fire I have yet to find any more plugs where the split might be. (I bet that is as clear as mud ;-))Sorry, Kev, my bad! :-( Nothing wrong with what you posted, simply my interpretation (and a level of hope that drove me to jumping the wrong way - I thought you'd found the thicker wire down there). Shows the problem of trying to diagnose by correspondence.If the join is simply spliced, and wrapped in tape, then it is going to be a b*gger to find. Ultimately, you could still get a solution by a wire from the fuseholder and splicing into the thick green/brown wire at the bottom of the wardrobe (it would have to be a splice there, since you would be feeding the panel one way, and step switch the other).I'd suggest you keep looking for the join however (though maybe when the weather is a bit more clement :-) ) I really only have one more suggestion about this, now I've had a think.The automatic step retraction is, as we discussed, powered by the fridge relay and fuse. As you know, we found the split for this (thick and thin red/yellow wire) at a connector in the engine bay not far from the fuseholder. The thin red/yellow also goes to the step area (like the thin green/brown one), so if they've split this in the engine bay (well away from where it is going - and the fridge wiring is very accessible next to the step), then maybe the step-switch split is also much nearer the fuseholder end. We know it isn't in the engine bay, as I traced the wire, but it could be under the dash, just after the wire enters through the bulkhead grommet. (though you say they go down from the fuseholders, I traced the wires along through the bulkhead?) It's worth a look in there (though I know from experience that seeing up behind the dash is a contortionist's job!I think a live feed from the leisure battery to the step-switch feed would provide temporary releief, but I still think it would be better to try to reconnect around the failed section. Good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevandali Posted December 7, 2011 Author Share Posted December 7, 2011 Going to take a better look in the engine bay to make sure exactly which direction they go, they seemed to go downwards on closer inspection but now you have me doubting myself, but will wait for a spell of warmer weather. I could definitely see the large brown/green cable entering and leaving the large plug at the bottom of the wardrobe plus I took a look behind the control panel just in case but there is just a single plug breaking the large brown/green wire and then straight into the back of the panel. Time for a cuppa now and stay away from it for a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 Hi Kev, Glad to hear you're nearly sorted and hope that our 'words of wisdom' have given you the encouragement to persevere with your problem. Just think of the satisfaction you'll get telling people you sorted the problem out rather than just getting your cheque book (or credit card) out :-D Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 kevandali - 2011-12-07 7:35 PMGoing to take a better look in the engine bay to make sure exactly which direction they go, they seemed to go downwards on closer inspection but now you have me doubting myself, but will wait for a spell of warmer weather. I could definitely see the large brown/green cable entering and leaving the large plug at the bottom of the wardrobe plus I took a look behind the control panel just in case but there is just a single plug breaking the large brown/green wire and then straight into the back of the panel.Time for a cuppa now and stay away from it for a while.It may be my mistake again, Kev, as at the time I quickly followed the stuff in the engine bay, we hadn't traced the main loom at the other end to under the floor.The three leads went to the left (when facing) of the engine bay, the red/yellow split at the first inline (single) connector, giving the tee for automatic step retraction. The green/brown and blue/brown went to a double inline connector, but there was no tee at this one. Then back further into the engine bay, and I thought they then went up and through the grommet behind the servo (but logically, they should probably go down). I may have mistraced some leads.Also logically, if the red/yellow split at its first connector, then you might think that the brown/green should at its, and it might have lost the thin lead from the connector. This doesn't work for me, however, as the thin lead MUST still be connected somewhere with continuity to the charger/panel (power on, vehicle battery selected, and the step switch works!). I also tested the inboard end of that connector with the power on, vehicle battery selected, and the power wasn't getting that far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 I may be well of the mark, but is there a possibilty the 12 volt feed to the step switch comes directly from the leisure battery and not the starter battery circuits. I have a aquired a copy of a swift motorhome circuit diagram which shows the supply to the switch coming from the leisure battery 20 amp fuse and not the starter circuit. It may be the same 20 Amp leisure battery fuse you know about or a 2nd one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 But the feed to the switch is live when the battery selector switch is set to 'Vehicle' implying it is connected to the vehicle battery. If it was connected to the leisure battery then surely this would not be the case? Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Hi Kieth, I believed it only has 9.6 volts on it in that condition, not the full 12volts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 It could, of course, come from anywhere - the wiring diagram referenced above that I've been working from may not be the correct one (though it purports to be for the correct range and year, and maps to what we can see on the vehicle). If there was only the single problem (i.e. the lack of power at the step switch), I think it would be a leap of faith to assume where the feed comes from. The lack of a panel reading, the lack of vehicle battery charging from mains, and the lack of step power, however, all put the balance of probability in favour of a single break in the feed from the vehicle battery - and this is consistent with the most appropriate wiring diagram I can find. This conclusion is also supported by the fact that the step works when the onboard charging of the vehicle battery is attempted - this can also be understood if the break is forward of the joint. I'm not working on certainties here, but probabilities supported by the diagram. BTW, I've already said, I'm not sure how reliable the voltages quoted by Kev are, he had a level of variation, and the step switch wouldn't have been easy to get a decent earth to test to. I didn't have time to retake all voltages. The leisure batteries were exhibiting a higher state of charge than the vehicle one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Hi Brambles, Could the 9.6 volts be a phenomena of the charger with no load on it? Kev, Have you phoned or emailed Sargent to ask for help? They may be able to tell you how far down the loom the split is. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Keithl - 2011-12-08 6:13 AM But the feed to the switch is live when the battery selector switch is set to 'Vehicle' implying it is connected to the vehicle battery. If it was connected to the leisure battery then surely this would not be the case? Keith. As I understand it, Kev's step only operates via the manual step-switch when the control-panel's 3-way switch is in the Vehicle position AND 230V mains power is being supplied to the vehicle. Going back to Square One, and ignoring the problem and the wiring diagram(s), the logical scenario would be for the step to be operable from the manual step-switch irrespective of the position of the control-panel's 3-way switch, and certainly without any need for the vehicle to be connected to an EHU. (It might be useful if Kev can cast his mind back and say if he had to do any control-panel switching to get the step to operate before the present problem occurred.) Even if we assume that normal operation of the step on a Swift Suntor did involve the control-panel's 3-way switch, the expectation would be that the switch would be in the Leisure position not the Vehicle one, because "Leisure" would be the norm and "Vehicle" the exception. I'd also expect (as Brambles suggests) that 12V power to the step-switch would come from the leisure battery, not the vehicle battery. The Omnistep is a conversion addition and it would be odd to deliberately choose the vehicle battery to power it rather than provide a simple fused connection direct to the leisure battery that's another conversion element. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Derek Uzzell - 2011-12-08 8:48 AM Going back to Square One, and ignoring the problem and the wiring diagram(s), the logical scenario would be for the step to be operable from the manual step-switch irrespective of the position of the control-panel's 3-way switch, and certainly without any need for the vehicle to be connected to an EHU. (It might be useful if Kev can cast his mind back and say if he had to do any control-panel switching to get the step to operate before the present problem occurred.) Even if we assume that normal operation of the step on a Swift Suntor did involve the control-panel's 3-way switch, the expectation would be that the switch would be in the Leisure position not the Vehicle one, because "Leisure" would be the norm and "Vehicle" the exception. I'd also expect (as Brambles suggests) that 12V power to the step-switch would come from the leisure battery, not the vehicle battery. The Omnistep is a conversion addition and it would be odd to deliberately choose the vehicle battery to power it rather than provide a simple fused connection direct to the leisure battery that's another conversion element. ......you're all doing MY head in now, never mind Kevs. >:-( I believe Keith and myself are on the same page, the rest of you are going round the houses. ;-) IF the wiring were as the diagram, and there wasn't a break in the live feed, the step WOULD work all the time irrespective of any panel switch position, or whether the charger were on or off. The fact is that it CURRENTLY works with the power on, and the switch in the Vehicle battery position, but this WOULD NOT BE a requirement if there was not a wiring fault. The fact that it does work this way (and the other symptoms, remember) suggest (assuming the wiring diagram is correct) a break where we are suggesting. I don't know which wiring diagram Jon has, but the 2005 and 2006 diagrams on Sargent's site show the step switch feed being taken from the permanent Vehicle battery feed for ALL motorhome types. I know everyone is trying to help, but I think we should try to eliminate logically, and we have a diagram, three faults, and a set of measures that all point to a break in the permanent vehicle battery feed. Work the probabilities first! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 If the break was behind the control panel switches, the panel with the volt meter, then it makes sense. The the feed from the step switch could be joined to the vehicle battery supply behind the panel and both these connected to one side of the battery select switch. The break could then be between this junction and the vehicle battrey fuse (Fuse No 3). Now this makes sense. I can then see how a voltage appears at the step switch and the step works. The big clue is when using the meter to test battery voltages. When testing the vehicle battery there was no indication on teh meter. A break as I described explains this and also why the vehicle battery is not charging from the power supply. So the break has to be in cable from the battery select switch and the vehicle battery fuse. No where have I read the switch panel has been removed and checked behind for the Vehicle battey voltage on the Brown/Green cable. So it makes sense to check this regardless of whether the theory the step switch cable gets joined there or not and eliminate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevandali Posted December 8, 2011 Author Share Posted December 8, 2011 Had a look behind the control panel and could see the brown/green cable going into the switch, didn't test for voltage as assumed with the ameter not working, that no voltage was there, will go and check in a sec. (Just checked, no voltage) There was no sign of a small brown/green cable but didn't expect to see one as I have already found that the supply to the step switch comes from the loom of wires under the floor via a plug at the back of the cooker. Also have phoned and emailed sargent and they are going to respond to my email as well as send me the exact drawing for my van just in case its different. I have sent sargent a link to this forum so maybe they will have a look and let me/us know if we are on the right track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 kevandali - 2011-12-08 11:14 AMHad a look behind the control panel and could see the brown/green cable going into the switch, didn't test for voltage as assumed with the ameter not working, that no voltage was there, will go and check in a sec.....but was this the main brown/green permanent lead, or the smaller step-switch feed? When we looked yesterday (whilst not having the panel off), the only wire we could see going up in that general direction was the thicker, main lead.I made the same assumption as you here - we know the meter works, but it shows zero volts from anything that is on the Vehicle switch only.kevandali - 2011-12-08 11:14 AMAlso have phoned and emailed sargent and they are going to respond to my email as well as send me the exact drawing for my van just in case its different. I have sent sargent a link to this forum so maybe they will have a look and let me/us know if we are on the right track.... a good call (as I suggested originally ;-) ) , and I hope the additional info helps you pinpoint it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Brambles - 2011-12-08 10:41 AM If the break was behind the control panel switches, the panel with the volt meter, then it makes sense. The the feed from the step switch could be joined to the vehicle battery supply behind the panel and both these connected to one side of the battery select switch. The break could then be between this junction and the vehicle battrey fuse (Fuse No 3). Now this makes sense. I can then see how a voltage appears at the step switch and the step works. The big clue is when using the meter to test battery voltages. When testing the vehicle battery there was no indication on teh meter. A break as I described explains this and also why the vehicle battery is not charging from the power supply. So the break has to be in cable from the battery select switch and the vehicle battery fuse. No where have I read the switch panel has been removed and checked behind for the Vehicle battey voltage on the Brown/Green cable. So it makes sense to check this regardless of whether the theory the step switch cable gets joined there or not and eliminate it. Jon, The basic theory you set out is exactly what we've been working on. The join doesn't have to be behind or at the panel, however, it simply needs to be anywhere in line, but must be panel side of any break in the permanent feed from the vehicle battery to exhibit the symptoms. As the join wasn't near the underbonnet fuseholder, and the step is relatively near to the panel, it became a good target for the join being at that end, BUT, though we could see the main green/brown wire in the loom going up to the panel, we couldn't see the smaller, similarly coloured, step switch feed. As a result, I downgraded the probability that it was there. As Kev has now had the panel off, I'd be interested to see which green/brown wire(s) he has found behind it (My bet is that it is only the thicker one - but if I'm wrong, it might ease any resolution). All the wiring (both to the panel and to the step switch) comes up through the floor, but in two separate positions, and it is tape wrapped as a loom, so tracing individual wires is difficult. It still needs Kev, either by tracing back from the step switch, or getting info from Sargent, to find where the tee to the step switch actually is - as any break in the permanent live must be between that and the vehicle battery/fuseholder. The key is finding that join, but I restate, the join doesn't have to be behind or at the panel, however, it simply needs to be anywhere in line, but must be in panel side of any break in the permanent feed from the vehicle battery to exhibit the symptoms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Derek Uzzell - 2011-12-08 8:48 AM I'd also expect (as Brambles suggests) that 12V power to the step-switch would come from the leisure battery, not the vehicle battery. The Omnistep is a conversion addition and it would be odd to deliberately choose the vehicle battery to power it rather than provide a simple fused connection direct to the leisure battery that's another conversion element. Derek, further to my previous which addressed the other points in your original post, If Swift are being consistent, and have thought through the situation, there is a very good reason why the step wouldn't be wired to the leisure battery. Their handbook states that (whilst they recommend otherwise) that it is quite acceptable to use the vehicle without a leisure battery fitted (I know, I know......), letting the onboard power supply provide 12V habitation power. Under these circumstances, one would expect the switch position to be in the middle, and if wired by the leisure battery, the step would not work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevandali Posted December 8, 2011 Author Share Posted December 8, 2011 It was the thick brown/green wire coming into the panel and attaching to the 3 way selector switch, now going to wait for any extra info from sargent before continuing to hunt for the break/split/plug etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Kev, I would suggest that is sensible! (my typing fingers are beginnig to hurt!) :-D It appears to me that (if the wiring diagram is confirmed as correct), if you ultimately can't find the join, the definitive way of fixing it is to run an additional wire from the bottom fuseholder underneath the van (taped/cable tied to the existing loom) and pass it up through the hole in the wardrobe floor. Then split and strip the thick green/brown at the bottom of the wardrobe, and rejoin them, at the same time teeing in the new permanent feed. (I'd suggest a scotchlok as the easiest way, but I don't like them, and would rather use one leg of a 15amp connector block, and then wrap with insulating tape). Unless the step switch feed is upstream (panel end) of the new feed, and at the moment it doesn't look like it, then this should resolve all problems without having to find the join. You could test it non-destructively if you can get onto the back of the green/brown wire in the muti-connector at the bottom of the wardrobe, by running your long test wire from that to the bottom fuseholder. If you do that, then (with power off) test the vehicle battery volts at the panel, a positive reading should confirm all is OK. Let's see what Sargent say, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Can I just add if you do add a bridging wire it is good practice to always add an inline fuse to the bridging wire for safety should an unforseen error be made. I should add, I do not see you having a problem as all the circuits are fused, just saying it is good practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevandali Posted December 8, 2011 Author Share Posted December 8, 2011 Robinhood - You could test it non-destructively if you can get onto the back of the green/brown wire in the muti-connector at the bottom of the wardrobe, by running your long test wire from that to the bottom fuseholder.If you do that, then (with power off) test the vehicle battery volts at the panel, a positive reading should confirm all is OK.Let's see what Sargent say, though. Did as above, control ameter swung into yellow, nearly onto green, step worked both in leisure battery position and vehicle battery position with mains power off. Only doubt was that it worked quite slowly but before I connected my bridging wire to the back of the plug where the brown/green large wire was, I measured the volts at 10.9v? So, overall, chuffed that it actually worked and the ameter told me I had power to the control panel but not sure about the 10.9volts. Will definitely keep away now until I hear from sargent. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 ....well, I'm 99.9% sure you've confirmed the diagnosis. :-) Can only hope that your low readings are simply a relatively poor connection with, or resistance in, the temporary wire, and/or not a particularly good earth when you checked with the voltmeter. (and not the symptoms of some other issue :-S ) I think (hope) you're nearly there. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Well done people. Classic forum job. The suspense has been killing me! :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Brian Kirby - 2011-12-08 3:40 PM Well done people. Classic forum job. The suspense has been killing me! :-) It's been so succesful at the box-office that Kev is thinking of releasing "Electric Step Problems II, The Step Wire Strikes Back". ;-) No No No No No No No! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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