kevandali Posted December 8, 2011 Author Share Posted December 8, 2011 How about 'Electric Step ll' The phantom brake lights. Just came in and noticed a red glow at the back of the van, brake lights are on! With mains on, they remain on, with mains off they are still on but go off when I turn the control panel selector switch to the middle position, I really do think I might just give up!! :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 kevandali - 2011-12-08 4:16 PMHow about 'Electric Step ll' The phantom brake lights. Just came in and noticed a red glow at the back of the van, brake lights are on! With mains on, they remain on, with mains off they are still on but go off when I turn the control panel selector switch to the middle position, I really do think I might just give up!! :-(B*gger.....just when you thought it would be safe to go back in the 'van.2 questions 1. Was the bridging wire still in place?2. With them otherwise "off" (as sorted above) - do the brake lights work as normal (i.e. on applying the footbrake)?I shan't be much use for the next two days, as I am "out of the office", but the above is making me wonder if the break we've diagnosed is either:1. the result of a wrongly plugged connection, or2. a bigger break in a loom that now has some "shorts" in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Not my field, so not trying to offer solutions, but.............. :-) The step used to work, now it does not. Kev, was any work carried out on the van, even a service, betwixt and between. It may well be a wire that has just come adrift, but that is a little unusual. Usually, they get pulled off while accessing something else. Things that suddenly stop working have usually suffered a failure, or been interfered with. Have you grounded the van anywhere, or do you recall anything making a sudden noise, possibly from underneath, while driving? Have you shifted a lot of stuff around in lockers that contain wiring? Finally, is there a relay anywhere that, if it failed, might cause these symptoms. The brake lights are being back-fed from somewhere, and the new link seems to have achieved that. Is the step return (earth) properly in place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 kevandali - 2011-12-05 7:36 AM ...recently had the lights sorted and the electrician found that the fuses that charged the leisure batteries needed replacing.(didn't have time to look at the step Kev, Was this at the same time that the step stopped working? Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevandali Posted December 8, 2011 Author Share Posted December 8, 2011 Going back to about 5 weeks plus ago, the reading lights in the rear u shapes lounge stopped working closely followed by the bathroom light and then main lights, called out a chap from Rhino installs (will contact him again to see if there could be a link) He found a break in a cable in the roof so ran in a new feed and everything was working ok. The step had stopped working quite some time previous to this but had not got round to sorting it as it worked on mains when in the vehicle position (as we all know! :-)) When I ran the bridging wire in and tested the step, the brake lights didn't come on, I only noticed them once I returned to the house and it was dark. Just spoke to the Rhino install chap and he has informed me that what he did was totally separate from the fiat lighting side of things, told him about the bridging wire and he said probably better off actually disconnecting the original wire that runs under the van as it could cause problems, as for the brake lights, said basically check the brake switch or as mentioned earlier, cold be a problem with a chaffed wire or break under the van. Having a wine now, stuff it for a while :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neillking Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 A left field piece of advice - set some mouse traps. (or those B&Q quick kill things). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 kevandali - 2011-12-08 6:21 PM........ as for the brake lights, said basically check the brake switch or as mentioned earlier, cold be a problem with a chaffed wire or break under the van. Having a wine now, stuff it for a while :-).....I don't want to bring false hope, but it occurs to me that I had at least one Ducato (can't remember if it was the 2002 or 2006) where the brake lights would work on pressing the pedal irrespective of the ignition being on or not. Since you think you managed to get them to go off by changing the panel switch, it seems unlikely that the problem is simple, but I would suggest you pump the brake pedal a few times, then see if you can replicate the lights staying on.If it's still there, then my money is on a chafed/broken loom combined with some "shorting", not a single broken wire, though this would only make sense if the vehicle and habitation wiring were combined into the same loom (and unfortunately, the wiring diagrams we have don't include the vehicle wiring). BTW, have one for me as well! ;-)Edit:I'd also check that, in jumping the plug in the bottom of the wardrobe, you haven't managed to make connection with more than just the green/brown wire (even with a few strands), though again, I can't think of how this would create a problem that could be fixed by moving the panel switch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Ah, so the step went first. The thing about the brake lights is that they work off the starter battery, and should only work with the ignition (and the brakes) on. So, you now appear to have a feed from the starter battery to the brake lights that by-passes the ignition switch and the brake light switch. What you did before this happened, was to connect what you thought was a live feed for the step, via a new wire, to the step. Somehow, that seems now to make a circuit of sorts to the brake lights. Since the ignition is off, and the brake pedal not depressed, that feed cannot be via the correct route. Most motorhomes have an "earth" wire from their rear light clusters to an earth point on the chassis, because the rears of most vans are GRP or similar, so non-conductive. It seems you have a current flowing via a very strange route, and I wonder if an earth conncetion somewhere is at fault. You say the lights are glowing, so I assume they are not at full strength. You have mentioned elsewhere some low voltages relative to actual battery charge state. I think you have a current finding its way via a very long path, or via some high resistance connection, resulting in a large voltage drop, so that the lamps just (presumably) glow dimly. Under the circumstances, I think I'd first disconnect your new wire asap, just in case something is getting hot and/or a battery is being flattened. I think you will probably then have to start taking readings at your fuses, but measuring Amps, not Volts, so that you can see whether current is flowing on circuits that should have no flow. However, I'm not going to venture any advice on that, as Jon, Keith and Bob are far better qualified in that respect than me. :-) Good luck, whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dshague Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 this was on the swift talk .Motorhome Step operation via EC400 PSUPosted by Sargent on November 24, 2011 at 4:54pm in Motorhome TechnicalA small number of customers may experience a problem with the motorhome step operation, due to a problem with a protective device (polyfuse, which is automatically resetting fuse) which provides the overcurrent and entrapment protection.Unfortunately a small number of these protection devices have been found to trip below their rated current,The failure manifests itself as the step moves only sporadically, but this should not be confused with the step being jammed or dirty which may produce similar symptoms.If any customers suspect that they may be affected by this problem then, if they would contact our technical support staff 01482 678981 or support@sargentltd.co.uk and we arrange for a replacement PSU to be supplied if one should be required Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevandali Posted December 8, 2011 Author Share Posted December 8, 2011 To my many viewers and long suffering helpers. Thought I would tell you a tale to make you smile.... picture the scene. Couldn't sit in the nice warm house so thought I would see if the brake lights worked in normal driving conditions, they do! Thing is, to keep the brake lights from going on permanently I have to have mains power off and the selection switch in the middle position. I pressed the brake but as I was sat in the drivers seat I noticed a light coming on, on the control panel, each time I depressed the pedal. As I could not see and couldn't put habitation lights on, because the switch was in the middle position it was hard to see what was happening...... so I got a broken broom handle and my head torch, stood in front of the panel and then depressed the brake with the broom handle, sure enough, it powers up the control panel each time the brake is pressed. At this point, the neighbour who is a stalwart neighbourhood watch volunteer appeared at the end of my drive, I waved and smiled but he just had to come in. (couldn't get up, the bloody step wasn't working) On a good note, in theory, if I turn the habitation lights on while driving, each time I come to some traffic lights and have to brake, the internal lights will come on giving my wife enough time to raid the onboard biscuit tin or other goodies to re-supply the driver!! :-) This thread is about as exciting as that quickly forgotten soap, Eldorado! I am truly apologetic, the end is in sight............ eventually :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Kev, if you can't replicate the brake light problem with the mains power on, and the panel switch to vehicle battery (but the bridging wire removed), then I am at a complete loss to explain how anything to do with the bridging wire (if correctly installed) can cause the problem. It is simply providing the equivalent power to the mains! :-( Edit, just seen the above - is the bridging wire still in place or not? If it is, I'd suggest you: 1. detach it from the fuseholder end and try to replicate the brake-light problem 2. If problem still there, detach it from the wardrobe end (just to make sure you haven't crossed any wires there). ....but do it in that order, and test after each. Once that's done and reported on, I'll peruse the wiring diagram again. (Edit: BTW, it wouldn't surprise me if the brake light problem occurred as before, but was now also curable by simply switching to the vehicle battery at the panel). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 neillking - 2011-12-08 7:17 PMA left field piece of advice - set some mouse traps.(or those B&Q quick kill things).I am beginning to think there may be some substance in Neill's idea :D :D :D Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Whilst the brake light circuit , in the main, is Fiat wiring and should be separate the high level light is not. It will be wired down to the main brake lights and the wiring quite possibly mixed in with Swift fitted harnesses. What is also not clear is if Swift extended the original Fiat harness or started again tapping into it at the front of the chassis and ran them together. This would be unusual unless an Alko Chassis. Even then it does not make sense to bundle the Fiat harness with the motorhome builders harness because of EMC issues. So the common link here is possibly and probably the high level brake light wiring. Tie this in with the problems you have had with interior lights and sounds very much like you have serious damage to a harness somewhere...and probably in the roof or rear. Have you had any additional equipment fitted at any time where a screw might have been put into a harness. A solar panel, TV antenna, roof box, rear cycle carrier ...anything. What about any smopke alarmsinside..could a screw innocently have punctured a harness. Whatever, something is shorting to the brake light feed and sound like it derives from the lighting circuit or power supply output. I think if it was an earthing problem like Brian sugggested there would be other rear cluster lamps coming on. I think my caution of good practice to always fitting a fuse in series with a bridging wire makes real sense now, and as Robin suggested the old broken harness must be cut at either end. This wiring really does sound quite a mess, but if only the brake light is a problelm now, it may not be far away from total fix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Jon, I was about to post again, and my thoughts at least dovetail with yours. I'd like Kev to remove the bridging wire and do the tests I set out above, as I want to eliminate the new (bridged) supply, and any possible stray wires from the bridge, from the new problem (and I think it will, though I also think he will then be able to extinguish the brake lights with the selector switch to vehicle battery). I can rationalise the new symptoms (as presented) in only one way. There must be a short between the brake light circuit and one or more of the OUTPUT circuits from the panel (this would include the lighting circuits you highlight, but there are others - though those that are switched at the panel could be eliminated quite quickly if the switches are off). With the bridging wire in place, there is now power into the panel in all Input selector switch modes, EXCEPT when the switch is in the centre AND the mains are off. This provides power to the output circuits, and if there is a short on one of them, will illuminate the brake lights. In this one circumstance, however, of the brake lights not being fed by the panel, (switch centred, mains off), if the brake pedal is then pushed, the brake lights will be illuminated as normal, but the short will also supply the panel in the reverse direction down the shorted output wire, and the panel will light for the duration of braking). This is entirely consistent with the brake light/panel symptoms exhibited. It also occurs to me that, with the brake lights permanently illuminated, the circuit within which the short exists can be found by successively pulling and replacing the DC fuses protecting each circuit until one makes the brake lights go out. (They're in the EC200). So, actually not too difficlut to diagnose (but still may be difficult to find the actual short). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevandali Posted December 8, 2011 Author Share Posted December 8, 2011 Thanks again for all the info, the bridging wire was only in place for a few minutes just to test to see if the step worked when the break was bridged. I didn't notice any problem with the break lights at the time. I think the brake light issue is due to a separate problem but I could be wrong, again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Kev, If the bridging wire is no longer in place, then I'm surpised you can't stop the brake light problem by putting the panel switch to vehicle (unless the previous break in circuit has magically corrected itself ;-) ) Both Jon (Brambles) and myself have the same thoughts about the brake light problem. I think if you follow my last post before this one, you should be able to confirm our thoughts, and also possibly identify which habitation circuit is shorted to the brake lights. (though it will not, unfortunately, tell you exactly where in that circuit). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 Robinhood - 2011-12-08 10:39 PM Kev, If the bridging wire is no longer in place, then I'm surpised you can't stop the brake light problem by putting the panel switch to vehicle (unless the previous break in circuit has magically corrected itself ;-) ) ....strike that comment! It had been a long day. With mains on the charger supplies input power with the switch in ANY position (which is why you have to turn the mains off to extinguish the brake lights). I'll restate the next test you should do with some more detail: With the brake lights permanently illuminated, (i.e. mains power on, switch in any position) the circuit within which the short exists should be found by successively pulling and replacing the DC supply fuses protecting each circuit until one makes the brake lights go out. (They're in the PSU2007, not the EC200 as I stated earlier - simply misread the picture). Given the problems you've already had with rear lighting, my money is on the removal of fuse 2 causing the brake lights to extinguish - but if it doesn't try the rest (though 8 looks as though it can be missed out). Picture and fuse designation below. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevandali Posted December 9, 2011 Author Share Posted December 9, 2011 Found the brake and the short, all sorted and working, details later :-) :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 kevandali - 2011-12-09 2:26 PM Found the brake and the short, all sorted and working, details later :-) :-) ........I can't wait! (lol) BTW, I should employ a good script editor before you try to sell the film rights. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevandali Posted December 9, 2011 Author Share Posted December 9, 2011 Took a good look in the engine bay to see if I could see a break, snipped off a few tie wraps and part of the cable sprang into place that had been hiding underneith the battery tray. Cleaned it all up, re joined and voila, easy peesy!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevandali Posted December 9, 2011 Author Share Posted December 9, 2011 The break and short was hiding underneath the engine battery tray!! (ooops, couldn't delete) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 ......looks a bit like acid damage to me. I'd check your battery out, as it may have overflowed, and I'd certainly lift it and clean the battery tray well and truly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 OMG What a mess :'( Glad you're all sorted now, but out of curiosity had the harness rubbed through on something or what had caused the damage? Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 Glad you have found the damage. Well done, been a hard week for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 I reckon this must be one of the Forums real success stories in remore fault finding and assistance. Usually ends up you get almost there but ends up really only pointing in the right direction. This has been a real challenge especially for you Kev, and of course not forgetting Robinhood. Bet you feel really satisfied now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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