Big Momma Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 postnote - 2011-06-30 7:35 PM What's Brian doing dropping into the Chatterbox forums. Thought he was the sensible one? :D Perhaps because he saw a sensible subject that was worthy of his views and comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted June 30, 2011 Author Share Posted June 30, 2011 If teachers working conditions , pay , pension pot , out of hours work etc are so terrible then leave , jack it in and do something else . Foreign workers make up a high percentage of our workforce these days and I am sure teachers from our European neighbours would jump at the chance to teach here and receive the package our lot get and in my recent experiences with the education system they might do it a little better too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Momma Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 antony1969 - 2011-06-30 7:49 PM If teachers working conditions , pay , pension pot , out of hours work etc are so terrible then leave , jack it in and do something else . Foreign workers make up a high percentage of our workforce these days and I am sure teachers from our European neighbours would jump at the chance to teach here and receive the package our lot get and in my recent experiences with the education system they might do it a little better too So using that principle of thought, the Government should say to all the electorate, we are making this decision or that decision and if you don't like it then leave the country, there are lots of people from foreign countries who want to come in and probably do it better. Great solution, you should sign up to be a politician :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliveH Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Brian Kirby - 2011-06-30 4:56 PM Randonneur - 2011-06-30 2:46 PM Brian Kirby - 2011-06-30 3:07 PM Er, and your actual point, Bruce? :-D I think the headline speaks for itself. Just been looking at Martin's old payslips and in 1988 he was paying 11.9% superannuation and left in 2000 with an annual pension of £10,000 plus his lump sum. So even back then the Police Officers were paying a higher percentage of pension deductions than most people. Yes, I understand that is true. However, they do, do they not, retire on average much earlier than most others (for perfectly good reasons), so need to accumulate their "pot" over a shorter time? Hence, the higher level of contributions? That is correct Brian. When a police officer reaches age 50 they accrue 2 years pension for every one years service. So by 55 most can retire as if they are at age 60. It is the same with some other jobs in the Public Sector such as Mental Health Nurses. The best one I ever came across was the judicial pension scheme (not quite the same now as this was eyewateringly good for the judges but VERY bad for the taxpayer) whereby they accrued 4 years pension for every year on the bench. So a full 40/80th pension with 3n/80th (where n = notional years service) Tax Free Lump sum achieved in just 10 years. As for Teachers Donna - it may well be "different" now - but I remember our Eurocamping family holidays where not only would we bump into Teachers that were on the site for 6 weeks or staying a couple of weeks on our site then travelling onto another. I wish I could have had that quality time with my kids with a full salary paid for by the taxpayer. Nice work if you can get it. And Bruce is correct - the holiday legal entitlement is 20 days and the 8 bank holidays - making a total of 28 days. One thing he did not mention was the other benefits set out in the "Burgundy Book" - after so many years service - sick pay is 100 working days full pay and then 100 working days half pay. Now this is interesting because usually the public sector sick pay is usually defines as 6 mths full pay and then 6 mths half pay. So why is the Burgundy book setting out days instead of months? Well it is because there are 365 days in the year and 5 days in each working week. So that is a total of 260 days. Now whilst we can have our 20 days holiday plus the BH's the teaching profession are recognised as having more and this is reflected in how their sick pay is calculated. Not 6 mths full pay and then 6 mths half pay - but 100 days full pay and 100 days half pay. That reflects the fact that Teachers enjoy circa 60 days more non-working paid days than the rest of us. That is the 12 weeks we all know they have as "holiday". 6 weeks Summer 2 weeks Easter 2 weeks Christmas 3 weeks @ one half term a term Total = 13 weeks Minus 5 days allowance for training days = 12 weeks But - thsi does not include the relatively new concept of "inset" days. Now I know Teachers do work at home marking books etc. and I am aware that the last government did some very peculiar things with the curriculum. But the truth is that Teachers DO get a hell of a lot more holiday, and a lot of us in the private sector work all of Gods hours. So please Donna - if you want empathy and sympathy for the Teachers and the other public sector workers - you have to appreciate that they will only get it when the Public Sector shows empathy and sympathy for the private sector who now earn less, have less employee benefits that the public sector and whose taxes pay for the benefits demanded as a right by the public sector - rights that the private sector have lost mainly due to the rules and red tape inflicted on the private sector by the Public sector! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Momma Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 CliveH - 2011-06-30 8:10 PM Public Sector shows empathy and sympathy for the private sector who now earn less, Would this be the same empathy and sympathy for the Public Sector when the Private Sector earned more *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted June 30, 2011 Author Share Posted June 30, 2011 Big Momma , I pointed out only If been a teacher is as we constantly are reminded by the profession is so difficult then leave . I wouldnt shed a tear and yes if foreign teachers stepped in and were bloody grateful for the package then so be it . Are we not in one big open EU job market these days . If I give a price to work on site building houses and I am undercut by a gang of Poles who do the job for less and to as good if not better standard how can I moan about it . At my secondary school we had a Russian lady teaching French an Australian teaching English and an Indian also teaching French and those 3 teachers were in my view 3 of the best in the school . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliveH Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 "Would this be the same empathy and sympathy for the Public Sector when the Private Sector earned more ----- Big Momma " ------------------------------------------------------- Nice try but the logic is flawed. The private sector had to earn more because we needed more to fund our own pensions. The public sector did earn less because they only contributed a very small amount of earnings into a "Rolls Royce" pension scheme funded out of taxes. What we have now is average salaries in the Public Sector being higher than in the Private Sector Pensions in the Private Sector in the main being Money Purchase not salary related Private Sector pension pots be taxed to the tune of £8Billion a year at the suggestion of the Public Sector to the then Chancellor - Gordon Brown. And some have the audacity to suggest that the Private sector should have empathy for and support the status quo whereby the Public Sector continue to get higher pay, far better pensions and employee benefits and all this paid for out of the taxes that whilst we all have to pay income tax, CGT etc. the Private Sector with is fund based pensions pays an extra dollop of tax to the tune of c. £8Billion a year which the Public Sector does not suffer because their is no fund. Public Sector pensions are paid out of taxes Public Sector defines the rules on pensions. Public Sector recommends rule that shafts Private Sector pensions rather than affecting their own. Spooky that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Momma Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 antony1969 - 2011-06-30 8:20 PM Big Momma , I pointed out only If been a teacher is as we constantly are reminded by the profession is so difficult then leave . I wouldnt shed a tear and yes if foreign teachers stepped in and were bloody grateful for the package then so be it . Are we not in one big open EU job market these days . If I give a price to work on site building houses and I am undercut by a gang of Poles who do the job for less and to as good if not better standard how can I moan about it . At my secondary school we had a Russian lady teaching French an Australian teaching English and an Indian also teaching French and those 3 teachers were in my view 3 of the best in the school . I understand your point. However, I would imagine that this would not resolve the issue. It is not all about pay and conditions but also about the way tearchers are treated in the schools. Even foreign teachers would not put up with the kind of treatment dished out, what do we say then, leave and we will find someone else to do the job. How many times do we keep saying that until we finally realise that the cause of the problem has to be addressed. Most teachers do this not merely as a job but a vocation, well at least the older generation of teachers. The younger ones who are coming in stay for literaly months and then get out pronto as you suggest. If this cycle continues, when the older generation depart then where is the experience to take over the reigns *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Talking of pensions :D...............had a letter today from the Pru to say they had been calculating my private pension wrong *-)......................So now I can expect £17.99 a week :-D I'm so glad I stopped wasting money by putting it into a private pension(lol) (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Momma Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 CliveH - 2011-06-30 8:36 PM "Would this be the same empathy and sympathy for the Public Sector when the Private Sector earned more ----- Big Momma " ------------------------------------------------------- Nice try but the logic is flawed. The private sector had to earn more because we needed more to fund our own pensions. The public sector did earn less because they only contributed a very small amount of earnings into a "Rolls Royce" pension scheme funded out of taxes. What we have now is average salaries in the Public Sector being higher than in the Private Sector Pensions in the Private Sector in the main being Money Purchase not salary related Private Sector pension pots be taxed to the tune of £8Billion a year at the suggestion of the Public Sector to the then Chancellor - Gordon Brown. And some have the audacity to suggest that the Private sector should have empathy for and support the status quo whereby the Public Sector continue to get higher pay, far better pensions and employee benefits and all this paid for out of the taxes that whilst we all have to pay income tax, CGT etc. the Private Sector with is fund based pensions pays an extra dollop of tax to the tune of c. £8Billion a year which the Public Sector does not suffer because their is no fund. Public Sector pensions are paid out of taxes Public Sector defines the rules on pensions. Public Sector recommends rule that shafts Private Sector pensions rather than affecting their own. Spooky that. The bottom line as we all know is that this country cannot continue on its current financial path. Both the Private and Public Sectors will have to face pain and discomfort. At the moment it is the Public Sector because they are being hit in a number of directions all within a short space of time, not just pensions. When this is accepted, as it will have to be when all the shouting and sabre rattling dies down, then more cuts will come into effect that will effect all of us and then more shouting and sabre rattling and it will not be a case of Public and Private Sectors as it will effect us all the same. We have to accept that these things will be, no matter what debates and counter debates are offered. I think that the biggest sense of frustration is that there are very large pots of tax payers money being handed out to foreign countries that have not been cut, indeed, most have been increased at the expense of all british taxpayers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Momma Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 pelmetman - 2011-06-30 8:46 PM Talking of pensions :D...............had a letter today from the Pru to say they had been calculating my private pension wrong *-)......................So now I can expect £17.99 a week :-D I'm so glad I stopped wasting money by putting it into a private pension(lol) (lol) So how come you get such a 'Gold Plated' pension eh ! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted June 30, 2011 Author Share Posted June 30, 2011 Momma , I take in your view also and you could talk to me till Huddersfield Town win the champions league about the teachers sufferings but my view would not change . Good salary , pension , sick pay etc the list goes on . Its not a bad life is it ? , they could be roofers instead and trust me that really is the pits . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Big Momma - 2011-06-30 8:57 PM pelmetman - 2011-06-30 8:46 PM Talking of pensions :D...............had a letter today from the Pru to say they had been calculating my private pension wrong *-)......................So now I can expect £17.99 a week :-D I'm so glad I stopped wasting money by putting it into a private pension(lol) (lol) So how come you get such a 'Gold Plated' pension eh ! :D Just as well I have discovered the joy of thrift :D..................Its a bit like the joy of sex..........except I only get breathless if I have to open my wallet (lol) (lol) (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Momma Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 antony1969 - 2011-06-30 9:18 PM Momma , I take in your view also and you could talk to me till Huddersfield Town win the champions league about the teachers sufferings but my view would not change . Good salary , pension , sick pay etc the list goes on . Its not a bad life is it ? , they could be roofers instead and trust me that really is the pits . It's being different and having different views that makes life interesting otherwise what a boring self-contented world we would live in.....boring or what :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Momma Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 pelmetman - 2011-06-30 9:18 PM Big Momma - 2011-06-30 8:57 PM pelmetman - 2011-06-30 8:46 PM Talking of pensions :D...............had a letter today from the Pru to say they had been calculating my private pension wrong *-)......................So now I can expect £17.99 a week :-D I'm so glad I stopped wasting money by putting it into a private pension(lol) (lol) So how come you get such a 'Gold Plated' pension eh ! :D Just as well I have discovered the joy of thrift :D..................Its a bit like the joy of sex..........except I only get breathless if I have to open my wallet (lol) (lol) (lol) Aah ! now I see your problem, you were not supposed to 'enjoy sex' it was supposed to be a duty. And another thing, what's this 'wallet' thing you mention, I hand my money over to the OH and she has something called a 'bottomless Pit' or a 'purse' she puts it into :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Dwight Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Well my teachers pension is under £200 a Month. So I was over paid, lazy and had lots of Holiday, I cant remember when that was. I had six wseeks holiday a year and worked most weekends and up till 10.00 pm at least 5 days a week!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OH and I left the NUT because they were a load of trouble makers! David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted June 30, 2011 Author Share Posted June 30, 2011 Big Momma - 2011-06-30 9:46 PM antony1969 - 2011-06-30 9:18 PM Momma , I take in your view also and you could talk to me till Huddersfield Town win the champions league about the teachers sufferings but my view would not change . Good salary , pension , sick pay etc the list goes on . Its not a bad life is it ? , they could be roofers instead and trust me that really is the pits . It's being different and having different views that makes life interesting otherwise what a boring self-contented world we would live in.....boring or what :D True and if we didnt differ in opinion we would all agree with Brian Kirby , what a god damn hellhole that would be :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
postnote Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 antony1969 - 2011-06-30 10:00 PM Big Momma - 2011-06-30 9:46 PM antony1969 - 2011-06-30 9:18 PM Momma , I take in your view also and you could talk to me till Huddersfield Town win the champions league about the teachers sufferings but my view would not change . Good salary , pension , sick pay etc the list goes on . Its not a bad life is it ? , they could be roofers instead and trust me that really is the pits . It's being different and having different views that makes life interesting otherwise what a boring self-contented world we would live in.....boring or what :D True and if we didnt differ in opinion we would all agree with Brian Kirby , what a god damn hellhole that would be :-D What have pensions and sex and Brian got to do with strike sympathy. Look if the lambs want to follow their union leaders, well let them. It only ends in tears anyway and who can feel sorry when blindly lead like the miners were.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donna miller Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 CliveH - 2011-06-30 8:10 PM 1...As for Teachers Donna - it may well be "different" now - but I remember our Eurocamping family holidays where not only would we bump into Teachers that were on the site for 6 weeks or staying a couple of weeks on our site then travelling onto another. I wish I could have had that quality time with my kids with a full salary paid for by the taxpayer. Nice work if you can get it. 2...And Bruce is correct - the holiday legal entitlement is 20 days and the 8 bank holidays - making a total of 28 days. 3...So please Donna - if you want empathy and sympathy for the Teachers and the other public sector workers - you have to appreciate that they will only get it when the Public Sector shows empathy and sympathy for the private sector who now earn less, have less employee benefits that the public sector and whose taxes pay for the benefits demanded as a right by the public sector - rights that the private sector have lost mainly due to the rules and red tape inflicted on the private sector by the Public sector! 3 points to reply to, then I shall leave you to it, so please leave me out of your future posts. 1. What relevance has what happened dozens of years ago got with todays action, back then was back then, today is today. Teachers from 30 years ago would not survive in the modern schools of today, and that is a quote from one of my old teachers i stay in contact with. 2. You, just like Bruce are wrong, I gave a link to the gov. website, it is as clear as day, and as an employer, I deal with it on a day to day basis. The legal minimum entitlement for anyone who works 5 days per week is 28 days paid annual leave, this can, at the employers discretion include bank holidays. You are not entitled to be paid on a bank holiday, however 99% of employers will pay you and take the day from your annual entitlement. If you insist on proving me wrong, then please provide a link to an official government site where it states that the legal entitlement is 20 days, and that an employer is legally bound to pay an employee an extra 8 days for bank holidays. 3.Nowhere, have I shown or implied empathy or sympathy for public sector workers, I have however defended my daughter and her chosen proffession from the accusations posted by the OP, and others who have obvious misconceptions about teaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted June 30, 2011 Author Share Posted June 30, 2011 I dont have any misconseptions concerning teaching or teachers , none at all and all the hard luck teacher sob stories wont change what I see and hear , and there are teachers at my old school still " teaching" who taught my brother whos 47 , 30plus years ago if my maths is correct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donna miller Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 antony1969 - 2011-06-30 9:18 PM . Good salary , pension , sick pay etc the list goes on . Its not a bad life is it ? , they could be roofers instead and trust me that really is the pits . Roofer, you mean the profession where you do don't work in the rain, don't work in the snow or ice, don't work in the dark, don't work when it's too hot. And you have the cheek to critisize others for the time they have off. All I can say is if teaching is such an easy life, and being a roofer is so hard, maybe you should go into teaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Momma Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 It was the PRIVATE sector that got the economy into this mess, and the Government are using the PUBLIC sector to bear the pain to bail this country out of it *-) The strike today was not just about teacher's, it was about PUBLIC Sector cuts of which the teachers are but a small part of. The Medical profession will be out with their 'sob stories' soon as will the 'Council workers' folowed by.............. Look at it this way, how many times do you see the Private Sector supporting anything that the Government does, but this time it is in their interests to do so. Hyping up the Public Sector takes the real cause of the problem, the Private Sector, out of the limelight. The Public Sector pension is not the biggest drain on the public purse, in fact the cost is decreasing, not a quote from me but from an independent financial analyst on the news tonight. Discuss :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 antony1969 - 2011-06-30 9:18 PM Momma , I take in your view also and you could talk to me till Huddersfield Town win the champions league about the teachers sufferings but my view would not change . Good salary , pension , sick pay etc the list goes on . Its not a bad life is it ? , they could be roofers instead and trust me that really is the pits . Well, here's a suggestion. Antony changes career to become a teacher. Gets him off roofs, and frees up one teacher to pursue a career elsewhere. Sorted! :-) Ooops. Sorry Donna, you beat me to it! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted July 1, 2011 Author Share Posted July 1, 2011 donna miller - 2011-06-30 10:50 PM antony1969 - 2011-06-30 9:18 PM . Good salary , pension , sick pay etc the list goes on . Its not a bad life is it ? , they could be roofers instead and trust me that really is the pits . Roofer, you mean the profession where you do don't work in the rain, don't work in the snow or ice, don't work in the dark, don't work when it's too hot. And you have the cheek to critisize others for the time they have off. All I can say is if teaching is such an easy life, and being a roofer is so hard, maybe you should go into teaching. Dont know how many roofers you know Donna but if I dont work then I dont get paid ( unlike some professions ! ) So if its snowed you shovel the snow off , if its icy you throw salt on to thaw the ice , too hot ? where do you live ? and if its dark its bleedin dark init and ya have the cheek to say I have misconceptions on others professions . On yours and Brians comment on me being promoted into the teaching profession , lets say my local college invited me to teach building , roofing etc then I would honestly not think twice , £30 grand , weekends off , EASY life , where do I sign Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliveH Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 donna miller - 2011-06-30 10:13 PM CliveH - 2011-06-30 8:10 PM 1...As for Teachers Donna - it may well be "different" now - but I remember our Eurocamping family holidays where not only would we bump into Teachers that were on the site for 6 weeks or staying a couple of weeks on our site then travelling onto another. I wish I could have had that quality time with my kids with a full salary paid for by the taxpayer. Nice work if you can get it. 2...And Bruce is correct - the holiday legal entitlement is 20 days and the 8 bank holidays - making a total of 28 days. 3...So please Donna - if you want empathy and sympathy for the Teachers and the other public sector workers - you have to appreciate that they will only get it when the Public Sector shows empathy and sympathy for the private sector who now earn less, have less employee benefits that the public sector and whose taxes pay for the benefits demanded as a right by the public sector - rights that the private sector have lost mainly due to the rules and red tape inflicted on the private sector by the Public sector! 3 points to reply to, then I shall leave you to it, so please leave me out of your future posts. 1. What relevance has what happened dozens of years ago got with todays action, back then was back then, today is today. Teachers from 30 years ago would not survive in the modern schools of today, and that is a quote from one of my old teachers i stay in contact with. 2. You, just like Bruce are wrong, I gave a link to the gov. website, it is as clear as day, and as an employer, I deal with it on a day to day basis. The legal minimum entitlement for anyone who works 5 days per week is 28 days paid annual leave, this can, at the employers discretion include bank holidays. You are not entitled to be paid on a bank holiday, however 99% of employers will pay you and take the day from your annual entitlement. If you insist on proving me wrong, then please provide a link to an official government site where it states that the legal entitlement is 20 days, and that an employer is legally bound to pay an employee an extra 8 days for bank holidays. 3.Nowhere, have I shown or implied empathy or sympathy for public sector workers, I have however defended my daughter and her chosen profession from the accusations posted by the OP, and others who have obvious misconceptions about teaching. OK - so it looks like I have upset you Donna simply by having views different to yours and have had the temerity to post them (lol) As for my "leaving you out of future posts" - as far as I am concerned - I speak to God every day so if I want to comment on something you have posted then I will do. If you don't like what I say - either ignore it or converse in an adult manner. Anyway the rules on holiday in the UK are clear so dealing with point 2:- http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employees/Timeoffandholidays/DG_10029788 And this is the relevant section:- “There is a minimum right to paid holiday, but your employer may offer more than this. The main things you should know about holiday rights are that: • you are entitled to a minimum of 5.6 weeks paid annual leave - 28 days for someone working five days a week (capped at a statutory maximum of 28 days for all working patterns) • part-time workers are entitled to the same level of holiday pro rata (so 5.6 times your usual working week, eg 22.4 days for someone working four days a week) • you start building up holiday as soon as you start work • your employer can control when you take your holiday • you get paid your normal pay for your holiday • when you finish a job, you get paid for any holiday you have not taken • bank and public holidays can be included in your minimum entitlement • you continue to be entitled to your holiday leave throughout your ordinary and additional maternity leave and paternity and adoption leave” So the minimum including Bank Holidays is 28 days - so that is 8 bank holidays and 20 actual holiday days. You said in your previous post:- “Many private and public sector workers enjoy 40+ days leave especially if they get bank holidays in addition to the minimum 28 days required by law. If you equate 40 days to weeks thats 8 working weeks a year plus all your weekends. Perhaps that will even out your misguided perceptions about the time teachers have off.” You try to make out that Bruce and I are wrong when it is clear that the minimum entitlement of 28 days INCLUDES the 8 days of Bank holidays. As for point 1 - I mention it because it is relevant because a) it was not that long ago and b) the rules on sick pay as set down in the Burgundy Book refer to the circa 200 days teachers work rather than the 260 rest of us do. Re the 3rd point - Teachers are on strike because they are public sector workers. They are striking alongside other public sector workers – so I hardly think it unreasonable to talk about Teachers AS public sector workers – because that is what they are! You have every right to defend your daughter and her profession - my point would be that professions do not strike. I think the Teachers and the other public sector workers are wrong to strike. The strike was called and balloted for before negotiations had even started. So that tells us all that the strike was politically motivated by those with an agenda - they should get round the table and compromise. The public sector, including teachers have lost sympathy by going on strike. And lets face it when they want sympathy from those that do not have anything like the pay and conditions the public sector (including teachers) enjoy and who foot the bill for the public sector, then striking is hardly the way to achieve it. Finally Donna – I do think it unreasonable of you to try to dictate that I should “leave you out of future posts” – sorry – not going to happen. You have every right to express your views and every right to disagree with what I and anyone else says. Please accept the fact that others have the same right of free speech. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.