Strike sympathy , not me

[CliveH]

OK so the TUC says this

 

"UK workers have now gained better minimum holiday rights so that a full-time worker can get the European minimum of 4 weeks plus an extra 8 days - the number of bank holidays in most of the UK."

 

Which as I did, then this is the same as that which the TUC is saying - - Sorry Robin but you are trying to make out that the wording is all so subtle/not subtle/means this/means that and complicated and you understand it but others don’t - and it isn't and I think I do. Where an employer employs an individual to work Mon to Fri, the employment terms/contract minimum is 20 days plus Bank holidays.

 

And I say again - I picked up Donna point where she seemed to be indicating that 28 days plus bank holidays was more the norm. It isn’t.

 

The TUC wording is standard legal English - understandable by all and that is that the minimum requirement for an employers contract of employment or Term of employment is to offer 20 days (or 4 weeks @ 5 working days a week = 20 days) plus Bank holidays – a further 8 days.

 

The 8 bank holiday days = 1.6 weeks (based upon a 5 day week) therefore with 4 weeks from the employer together with the 1.6 weeks of BH's you get the 5.6 weeks.

 

 

As for any legal fallout by our advising people and firms on this - I look forward to someone giving it a try.

 

[Brian Kirby]

postnote - 2011-07-04 9:16 AM

 

It is nonsense that public sector workers should expect to be immune from the job losses, pay and pension reductions that the majority in the private sector have been suffering for years.

 

They have lived in a gilded cage and been insulated from reality for far too long, chiefly because Labour lacked the moral fibre to address the problem while at the same time pursuing a wanton spending spree.

 

Now that the worldwide financial crisis is forcing massive re-appraisal of all Government and industrial plans, the public sector need to bear their fair share of the necessary burden and realise we are all in this together.

 

Protesting and marching is not the answer and will gain little sympathy from the hard-pressed majority.

(?)

 

Simply, it is human nature to seek to protect what one has. When they all have a single, identifiable, employer, who chooses who shall go and who shall stay, they will either fall upon each other to protect their sectional interests, or coalesce around the issue to try to protect as much of their collective rights as possible. Were the threat from an external aggressor, and they had banded together for defence, we should call that same instinct noble. Because it is their jobs, and they are public employees, we say it is selfish. The protests, however much they may annoy, are fundamentally a sign of a civilised people conducting a dispute within a democratic framework. However much we may disagree with what they may say or do, we should, nevertheless, uphold their right to do so.

 

A little out of context, but not without its parallels (even to the protracted debate over how many days make 28! :-)). Dylan Thomas.

 

Do not go gentle into that good night,

Old age should burn and rage at close of day;

Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

 

Though wise men at their end know dark is right,

Because their words had forked no lightning they

Do not go gentle into that good night.

 

Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright

Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,

Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

 

Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,

And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,

Do not go gentle into that good night.

 

Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight

Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,

Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

 

And you, my father, there on the sad height,

Curse, bless me now with your fierce tears, I pray.

Do not go gentle into that good night.

Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

 

[donna miller]

CliveH - 2011-07-04 10:54 AM

 

And I say again - I picked up Donna point where she seemed to be indicating that 28 days plus bank holidays was more the norm.

 

 

Errr no She didn't.

Please read my original posts carefully.

 

That's my final word.

 

I'm not backing down, I'm not throwing my toys out of the pram, I'm not running away because I'm wrong. ( These are the usual comments), it's my final word because I'm past caring.

The employment contracts we give to our employees are written by Peninsular and are watertight, to protect both the employee and ourself, they are not composed by forum experts, and I am more than confident that the advice Peninsular give us is the correct one to follow.

People can read for themselves what I said on the matter, they can read what you and Bruce originally wrote, they can compare the two, and also compare it to what you claim I said and what you now say, they can then make their own mind up.

[CliveH]

Donna

 

I am quoting you exactly:-

 

"“Many private and public sector workers enjoy 40+ days leave especially if they get bank holidays in addition to the minimum 28 days required by law. If you equate 40 days to weeks that’s 8 working weeks a year plus all your weekends. Perhaps that will even out your misguided perceptions about the time teachers have off. .

Add all the above to the fact that they have to put up with abuse, violence, threats and a general feeling of helplessness in many cases, wouldn't you go on strike, I would.”

 

The specific point that I indicated was incorrect was the inference

 

"........if they get bank holidays in addition to the minimum 28 days required by law"

 

The 28 days or 5.6 weeks is minimum the employer has to provide - 4 wks - see TUC link above - plus the 8 days for the BH's. So the 28 days includes the BH's - as I have always said.

 

Whether you meant it or not - your sentence reads as if the Bank holidays can sit on top of the 5.6 weeks when in fact they are included within it. Where an employer is more generous then the extra days or weeks are added to the 4 weeks (or 20 days) figure in the wording.

 

We prefer using days rather than weeks because some employers have Terms and Conditions that allow an extra days holiday for every year worked up to a max of, usually, 6 weeks. So when this individual reaches the max, their annual holiday entitlement is 30 days plus the 8 BH's. Defining working days as a percentage or ratio of a working week is a nightmare. If you are talking days holiday then any legal bod in the land will recommend a contract that talks unit days. Simples!

 

Now before the pedantic amongst us start going on about shift work/w/e working/Scotland or NI - please note this is standard in England and Wales and assumes an average office type worker where the normal working week is 5 days and the offices close on all the Bank Holidays.

 

This is what our office works to and so to most of the accountants solicitors etc - probably the most common contract/ terms out there - certainly the most common we see..... Other offices have differing hours - such as estate agents

 

 

[CliveH]

 

Just had a look at what Peninsular states on their website:-

 

"Annual Leave

Under the Working Time Regulations all employees are entitled to annual leave. Full time workers have a statutory entitlement of at least 5.6 weeks’ paid annual leave (which equates to 28 days for someone working five days a week).

 

An employer can specify when holiday should be taken and whether Bank Holidays are included in the entitlement. There is a minimum right to paid holiday, but an employer may offer more than this.”

 

 

So it seems to be as I said :-

 

"An employer can specify ..... whether Bank Holidays are included in the entitlement."

 

So it follows that if an employer does specify that within the 5.6 weeks total the 8 days Bank Holidays ARE included then we are back to the 4 wks plus 8 days BH's – which is what the TUC state - or as most firms prefer for easy administration - 20 days plus the 8 BH's

 

I note that as soon as part-timers are covered by Peninsular – they also revert to days not weeks – Most firms we know works their holiday rotas in days - not weeks.

 

[Mel B]

Strewth ... and they say that WOMEN can 'talk'!!!!! 8-)

 

What a load of old men, babbling on and on, you must like to hear your own 'keys clattering'!!! (lol)

[CliveH]

Certainly agree it went on too long.

 

Days

 

If not weeks

 

anyone want to count them

 

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