Strike sympathy , not me

[Bulletguy]

Big Momma - 2011-07-02 10:53 PM

I just pointed out that you were using examples that were hardly relevant as your 'freinds', now retired, were obviously not part of the modern education regime....

 

Considering they were both working in education until six years ago and completed thirty years service, i'd say they qualify to have been "part of the modern education regime". I doubt very much that in six years education has changed to such a significant extent that the statements I made in my post become irrelevant.

 

Unless of course school hours have become even less and the holiday quota increased.......neither of which would surprise me in the least.

[CliveH]

Robinhood - 2011-07-01 11:09 PM

 

BGD - 2011-07-01 1:27 PM

For pities sake mate -

 

Is it that you did not read my explanation, or that you did not grasp it?

 

I certainly did; and both of the above (though as usual you were inclined to go around the houses) ;-)

 

What's more, despite your condescending (and thus demeaning) comments in your later post, viz:

 

BGD - 2011-07-01 2:03 PM

Thus, as Robinhood has mentioned (in an understanding-of-the-detailed EU and UK law sense I suspect he's not quite totally grasped all of the many legal principles involved, but in practice his example is right):

[/Quote]

 

……I understand far more of this subject than you give me credit for (maybe that's why my summary was both succinct and correct?). The alternative view, of course, is that I simply cobbled a few phrases together and got lucky! :-)

 

BGD - 2011-07-01 1:27 PM

That is EXACTLY what I said, and how the Working Time Regulations, the Working Time (Amendment) Regulations and the Common Law of contract operates.

 

Jeez.

 

Well it's certainly approximately what you said this time (which is why I gave you credit for getting there)…….(lol)

 

In your earlier posts, however, (and along with Clive) your stated view was rather different, e.g:

 

BGD - 2011-06-30 4:10 PM

Please look back at my post Donna - that reference backs up exactly what I said.

I said in my post that the minimum is 20 days plus the 8 bank holidays

 

CliveH - 2011-07-01 1:27 PM

You try to make out that Bruce and I are wrong when it is clear that the minimum entitlement of 28 days INCLUDES the 8 days of Bank holidays.

 

CliveH - 2011-07-01 1:27 PM

But the statutory minimum is 20 days paid annual holiday with a further 8 days of BH's as and when the (sic) fall.

 

…which is why I did my summary, and quoted Clive’s continuing erroneous statement (simply because they were continuing).

 

You both appear to me to be attempting to rewrite history, (difficult when the thread provides an audit trail) but at least you, Bruce, have caught up with the facts in that re-write - (as your somewhat better phrased later statement evidenced): viz:

 

BGD - 2011-06-30 11:39 AM

“20 days plus 8 additional days to recognise Public Holidays"

 

As you’ve noticed, and taken up with him, Clive’s revision of history hasn’t quite reached factual status yet! ;-)

 

In her last post before this all kicked off, Donna stated:

 

donna miller - 2011-06-30 12:34 PM

As stated above, you are entitled to a minimum 28 days paid annual leave, it is at the employers discretion as to whether bank holidays are included in this allowance or paid extra.

 

So, after a protracted exchange, and a rather superfluous tour around employment law history, are we all agreed that, in fact, Donna was correct? :-)

 

 

 

Or put it another way - as bank holidays are statutory days holiday under the Banking Act 1971:-

 

A contract of employment can say a maximum of 20 days plus 8 bank holidays - which is what I have said all along. Under employment contract law this is perfectly legal and would hold up in any court in the land.

 

So as for my apparent - "....... revision of history hasn’t quite reached factual status yet! ;-)"

 

Well here is the "History"

 

"Bank holidays were first introduced by the Bank Holidays Act of 1871. This was replaced by the current statutory basis for bank holidays, the Banking and Financial Dealings Act 1971.

 

There are usually eight permanent bank holidays in England and Wales. By law the dates of bank holidays can be changed, and other holidays may be declared to celebrate special occasions. For example, a special bank holiday on Tuesday 5 June to celebrate the Queen’s Diamond Jubilee in 2012 had previously been announced.

 

Employees’ entitlement

 

There has always been confusion about the status of bank holidays. It is important to note that employees do not have an automatic right to paid leave on bank holidays.

 

Although many employers do close down on such days or offer employees who work extra pay or a day off in lieu, they are not required to do so.

 

Any right to time off or extra pay for working on a bank holiday depends on the terms of the contract of employment.

 

The only legal obligation on an employer is to allow their workers the minimum annual leave laid down in the Working Time Regulations 1998 (28 days for a full-time worker).

 

Many businesses, such as those in the retail sector, open on bank holidays and need to maintain staff cover. Bank holidays are usually treated just like any other day therefore and employees have to make a request for annual leave in the normal way if they do not wish to work the bank holiday.

 

Where an employment contract provides for “twenty days holiday plus bank holidays” then an employee will be entitled to the royal wedding bank holiday next year in addition to the usual eight bank holidays."

 

OK - NOT SHOUTING - JUST USING UC FOR EMPHASIS!

 

"WHERE AN EMPLOYMENT CONTRACT PROVIDES FOR 'TWENTY DAYS PLUS BANK HOLIDAY'................."

 

SO PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!! note - the pedantic amongst us!!!

 

The minimum an employer need to offer is 20 days plus bank holidays.

 

You can play with the words as much as you like but I am telling you guys that in employment law - THAT is the minimum required. And that was what i said - and i stand by it having seen more contracts of employment than most people have had the proverbial hot dinners.

 

 

This one:-

 

"What is the annual leave entitlement?

Workers are entitled to 5.6 weeks paid annual leave every year. This includes bank holidays. Under the arrangements most employers allow full-time workers four weeks annual leave and eight days’ bank holidays. Part-time workers have the same rights on a pro-rata basis.

 

The payment for annual leave is calculated by reference to the worker’s normal week’s pay (based on the normal working hours fixed by the contract of employment). Overtime is not included unless the employer is contractually obliged to provide the worker with overtime.

 

Workers on long-term sick leave are entitled to paid holiday under the Regulations."

 

http://www.thompsonstradeunionlaw.co.uk/information-and-resources/working-time.htm

 

And here they quote "4 weeks annual leave and eight days' bank holidays"

 

So errrrrrr let me seee - another one that indicates employment contract law provides for 4 weeks (5 day working week = 20 days) and 8 bank holidays.

 

And the TUC states the same :-

 

"This is not the same as an entitlement to take bank holidays off work. While many contracts of employment do give an automatic right to take bank holidays off, some jobs have always required people to work during holidays. What it means is that you can take 4 weeks plus either bank holidays or time off in lieu for any bank holidays that you had to work."

 

http://www.worksmart.org.uk/rights/what_are_the_entitlements_to_annual_leave

 

We know this as a firm because many employers came to us asking if they had to give the Royal Wedding as a holiday - our response :-

 

Depends upon the individuals contract of employment of terms of employment. If is simply says so many days plus Bank holidays then the answer is no, as the RW was a public holiday not a BH.

 

But if it says so many days plus all public holidays then yes - the employee would be entitled to that day off.

 

So does anyone want to say that an employer whose contract of employment states that an individuals holiday entitlement is "20 days plus 8 bank holidays" is wrong?

 

That is EXACTLY what I said - and what I still say.

 

[Big Momma]

Bulletguy - 2011-07-02 11:16 PM

 

Considering they were both working in education until six years ago and completed thirty years service, i'd say they qualify to have been "part of the modern education regime". I doubt very much that in six years education has changed to such a significant extent that the statements I made in my post become irrelevant.

 

Unless of course school hours have become even less and the holiday quota increased.......neither of which would surprise me in the least.

 

It is quite obvious that 'your' chums obviously did not 'work' in education.

 

45 minutes lunch, provided you do not have an assigned duty and whilst the children at my OH's school start at 08:25am and finish at 16;10pm my OH goes in at 07:00 (although official start 07;30am) and finishes at 18:00pm (although official finish 17:30 unless other assigned after hours duty).

 

You did not say whether your 'chums' were primary school teachers or secondary school teachers. This may have a bearing on hours at school, lunches, additional duties etc.

 

From your last words of sarcasm, you clearly indicate your bias towards teachers and the real facts could come and slap you right in the face and you would still fail to accept that whilst people like your 'chums' may have had it easy, they are/were in the minority compared with how things are now.

 

So please do have the last word, as I am sure you must, but pointless taking this any further with you. Enjoy your weekend and stay out of the sun as your blood pressure is obviously high enough already 8-)

[CliveH]

Teachers may well be working more hours than before - in some ways this is good of course. But certainly just a few short years ago - we experienced teachers on holiday for far longer than we could take.

 

So yes it will take a long time for the average person to consider Teachers as "working long hours".

 

Only recently their unions were calling for a 35 hour week. For those of us who work considerably longer each week 35 hours would be nice.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/teachers-call-for-35hour-cap-on-working-week-1656168.html

 

And like it or not - so would those long long holidays (lol)

[Big Momma]

CliveH - 2011-07-03 3:24 PM

 

Only recently their unions were calling for a 35 hour week. For those of us who work considerably longer each week 35 hours would be nice.

 

And like it or not - so would those long long holidays (lol)

 

Me too :D

[donna miller]

Mandy&Andy - 2011-07-01 7:37 PM

 

Ohhh Donna come to Northants so I can hug you, really not interested in the thread as it has just filled it self with bores but just love your ability to stick to your guns and make many look just what they are, go girl !!! lots of us behind much of what you say but just don't have your amazing abilities. :-D :-D

Mandy

 

Thanks Mandy,

They can argue amongst themselves, it's getting boring, regardless of the subject, every time I say something, the same ones come back and try and batter me down, they twist what I say, they'll take what I say and attempt to convince everyone THEY said it.

I was once married to a pathetic bully who used to do the same, he didn't like being told he was wrong either, he resorted to fists as well as words, these forum members are no better except they use 'virtual fists', he didn't get the better of me, nor will this lot.

Once the "Donna's thrown her toys out" insults come, you know they are beaten and they've nothing more constructive to say.

Sad really,

 

 

Sorry I didn't reply Fiday as i was basking on the beach by 7pm, and no sly digs about whales.... :D :D

[antony1969]

Donna , luvvy , its like I tell my missus , youre only a woman after all . Its easier for everyone if you girls remember that :-D

[donna miller]

Of course Anthony, I fully agree with you *-)

 

 

let's just hope your daughters never hook up with a man like you then.

[CliveH]

Nice words Donna

 

Shame the bottom line was 20 days plus 8 days BH (lol)

 

But then you could live in Scotland (9 BH's) (lol) (lol)

 

Or NI (10 BH's) (lol) (lol) (lol)

 

 

 

 

 

 

[donna miller]

A wise old Chinese woman once told me " To truly appreciate the feeling of good health you must first experience serious illness"

 

I have yet to appreciate being correct.

[CliveH]

"I have yet to appreciate being correct."

 

 

Somehow that really does not surprise me (lol)

[Robinhood]

BGD - 2011-07-02 12:59 AM

Enough.

 

I simply cannot be arsed to keep explaining the actual law yet again.

Thank goodness :-)

 

BGD - 2011-07-02 12:59 AM

Read my earlier post. That is in fact the law in the UK, regardless of what Donna or Robinhood would have you believe.

I’m not at all sure what you think I would have anyone believe that is in conflict with the law of the UK. I posted a small set of simple, cohesive and relevant statements which you have already agreed (though it seems somewhat grudgingly) comprise a correct summary.

 

The original question (which led to disputed answers) was simple; the amount of paid leave one is legally entitled to; it appears to have gone a bit off-piste since then.

 

Before it all kicked off, Donna’s most recent post, (admittedly following a bit of a false start) in reply to a query by Josie, was:

 

donna miller - 2011-06-30 12:34 PM

Josie.

As stated above, you are entitled to a minimum 28 days paid annual leave, it is at the employers discretion as to whether bank holidays are included in this allowance or paid extra.

 

This is fundamentally correct, and I perceive, Bruce, that this is the gist of your latest set of statements (albeit you need the services of a good editor to make it obvious ;-) ).

 

How you say the number arose may also be correct, but I admit I rather lost the will to wade through every bit of the history lesson to check my memory for correctness :-)

 

….but if it is what you meant to say when you first picked up on Donna, (and it may have been) then that was not apparent (I sometimes think yours and Clive’s posts are so convoluted you lose track of what you’ve posted, and what you’ve said).

 

So:

 

BGD - 2011-06-30 4:10 PM

Please look back at my post Donna - that reference backs up exactly what I said.

I said in my post that the minimum is 20 days plus the 8 bank holidays.

 

Did you really meant to phrase it this way, because you did better later?

 

BGD - 2011-07-02 12:59 AM

Sorry if it's boringly complex. But Employment Law is very, very complex. It is not simple. It is not at all easy

….well, it only gets boringly complex for mere mortals if one departs from the premises of the original point at question, and thus start adding to the complexity. It can start to look a little like a smokescreen. ;-)

 

I agree that if one digs further down, then it is complex, which is why I introduced the example referenced previously that I did.

 

An even easier one to consider would be for someone working in Scotland on a fairly standard contract, which one ostensibly might think would mean “20 days plus the bank holidays” are the minimum (but as Scotland has 9 Bank Holidays, would not be the case).

 

BGD - 2011-07-02 12:59 AM

Robinhood has quoted handbooks/other sources rather than demonstrating any core understanding of the underlying Statute and Regulations, and their effects on Common Law employment contract terms.

I can see why you’ve rubbed people up the wrong way – you just can’t resist a dig can you. First the original condescending comment, now this. ;-)

 

I can assure you the input, insight and wording are entirely my own (you know little, if anything about me, so why would you feel you could state otherwise?). I’ve simply kept to the nub of the question, rather than going around the houses.

 

BTW if you’re looking for uninformed quotation, “Googling” and cutting and pasting in threads, then I would suggest there are better, repeat, suspects plainly evidenced in this thread. :-O

 

BGD - 2011-07-02 12:59 AM

To anyone else who employs people in the UK I can only say: choose which explanation of the law to follow with great care.

Because despite what Robinhood asserts, it really does matter that the 28 days is made up of the original 20 days, plus 8 further days in recognition of there being 8 Bank holidays.

He would have you believe that it is simply "28 days" without any further qualifying detailed definition. I can only say again, that this is wrong in law.

Not at all, the basic entitlement is clearly 28 days, and that is what I’ve stuck to.

 

The implementation of that entitlement can be pretty complex, depending on an individual’s circumstances – I touched on that from the beginning to demonstrate the flaws in thinking it was simply “20 days plus the 8 Bank Holidays”, and I’ve added another example above.

 

The implementation, however, didn’t really seem key to the nub of the original question, and as you say, it is “boringly complex”, so I chose to largely ignore it for the sanity of the forum members, whilst you don’t appear to have been able. ;-)

 

Whatever, whether all parties agree or not, I think we are now all roughly “on the same page” (with the possible exception of Clive ;-) )

 

 

Buenas noches

[Robinhood]

CliveH - 2011-07-03 9:55 PM

Shame the bottom line was 20 days plus 8 days BH (lol)

 

But then you could live in Scotland (9 BH's) (lol) (lol)

 

Or NI (10 BH's) (lol) (lol) (lol)

 

 

Only your bottom line, Clive, 'cos 20 days plus 8 days BH ain't the answer to the original question ;-)

 

So what is the entitlement in Scotland where there are 9 Bank Holidays, then?

[Robinhood]

CliveH - 2011-07-03 9:24 AM

A contract of employment can say a maximum of 20 days plus 8 bank holidays - which is what I have said all along.

 

…Ah….but Clive, that isn’t what you’ve said all along. As I’ve already posted in response to Bruce, I think you guy’s posts are so convoluted you lose track of what you’ve posted, and what you are saying. ;-)

 

You clearly challenged Donna with a different statement

 

CliveH - 2011-06-30 8:10 PM

And Bruce is correct - the holiday legal entitlement is 20 days and the 8 bank holidays - making a total of 28 days.

 

..........which is part of what “kicked it off”.

 

I think every post now, including Bruce's, has told you this is wrong, but you continue (even in your latest posts) to try to taunt Donna with your errors.

 

CliveH - 2011-07-03 9:24 AM

So does anyone want to say that an employer whose contract of employment states that an individuals holiday entitlement is "20 days plus 8 bank holidays" is wrong?

 

Well conventionally, I think it would be considered the employees contract of employment, but ….absolutely not (assuming amongst other things that the employee, is subject to English Bank Holidays, is paid for the Bank Holidays and would normally work them, etc., etc. - as Bruce says, the implementation of the entitlement is complex) – such an arrangement might be seen as one very common example of a contract that would meet the minimum legal requirement. As only a single example however, it does not define or demonstrate understanding of what the legal requirement is, and would give little or no guidance in defining the holiday entitlement of say, my example used previously – someone who works an otherwise normal five-day-week, but Wednesdays to Sundays (and therefore would normally not work on a number of Bank Holidays).

 

This is why your continuing assertion from the same post:

 

CliveH - 2011-07-03 9:24 AM

The minimum an employer need to offer is 20 days plus bank holidays.

 

You can play with the words as much as you like but I am telling you guys that in employment law - THAT is the minimum required. And that was what i said - and i stand by it having seen more contracts of employment than most people have had the proverbial hot dinners.

 

……..is fundamentally incorrect, as it wouldn’t, for the example set out above, meet the minimum legal requirement (and is why the law doesn’t require 20 days plus 8 days bank holiday, but requires 28 days against which bank holidays can be (discretionally) set under controlled circumstances (which may differ significantly for different individuals).

 

BTW, my advice to Bruce about retaining the services of a good editor could easily be applied to your good self, and in your case, I would also advise contacting a good memory coach. :D

[francisgraham]

I went across Striding Edge today in my ascent of Helvellyn and I'm almost wishing that I'd fallen off! Any chance of knocking this on the head for 20 days and 8 bank holidays? :-D :-D :-D 

[Brian Kirby]

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[602]

Hi,

 

Divide and Conqer!

 

A 35 hour week, is 5 days of 7 hours. Does that include lunch breaks?

 

When I was a civil servant, lunch breaks were paid. Not a good idea! Talking in round figures, a salary of £400 per week for 40 hour, gave £10 per hour. But for 35 hours, it gave £11.42 per hour. Guess which figure was used for calculating overtime.

 

602

[CliveH]

Oh Good Lord! Robinhood accuses others of being convoluted and others "losing track" of what they said and then posts the equivalent of Tolstoy’s "War and Peace" to make his point.

 

And somewhere in all that verbal irrelevance he accuses me of not saying-

 

"20 days plus bank holidays" was the minimum an employer had to offer

 

He does not quote my offending "bit"

 

So I wait in exited anticipation to have explained to me how my quoting 20 days plus the eight days bank holiday consistently throughout is incorrect because it isn't. Stating that in an employment contract would be fine and dandy - perfectly legal where I sit in England.

 

Because as I have already stated - Scotland has 9 BH and NI 10. and of course the law of England and Wales is different to the Laws of Scotland and also to Northern Ireland especially contract law. So the contracts we oversee state clearly where the contract is being signed and what particular law applies.

 

However getting back to the point - What Donna actually said was this:-

 

“Many private and public sector workers enjoy 40+ days leave especially if they get bank holidays in addition to the minimum 28 days required by law. If you equate 40 days to weeks that’s 8 working weeks a year plus all your weekends. Perhaps that will even out your misguided perceptions about the time teachers have off. .

Add all the above to the fact that they have to put up with abuse, violence, threats and a general feeling of helplessness in many cases, wouldn't you go on strike, I would.”

 

And I picked up that Donna’s inference that “if they get bank holidays in addition to the minimum 28 days required by law” was incorrect – BECAUSE THE MINIMUM IS 20 DAYS PLUS BANK HOLIDAYS!

 

What Bruce actually said was this:-

 

“Private sector.....20 days paid holiday minimum. NOT 28 days.

Most places give between 20 and 25, plus 8 bank holidays (or time off in lieu if required to work on a bank holiday)....how many bank holidays are teachers required to work?....oh yes, none. So let's say about 6 weeks total on average.

Teachers... in excess of 13 weeks paid holiday per year. College and University lecturers: in excess of 22 per year.”

 

And I fully concur.

 

Even the Unions concur that the minimum an employer needs to offers is 20 days or 4 wks plus BH’s.

 

 

 

 

[CliveH]

francisgraham - 2011-07-03 11:32 PM

 

I went across Striding Edge today in my ascent of Helvellyn and I'm almost wishing that I'd fallen off! Any chance of knocking this on the head for 20 days and 8 bank holidays? :-D :-D :-D 

 

(lol) (lol) (lol)

[Robinhood]

As Francis appears to be ready to throw himself from a high place, (which would indeed be a sad loss ;-)), I’ll make this my last reply to you on this subject Clive (and keep it as short as I can).

 

You can take a horse to water, but you can’t make him think!

 

CliveH - 2011-07-04 7:59 AM

And somewhere in all that verbal irrelevance he accuses me of not saying-

 

"20 days plus bank holidays" was the minimum an employer had to offer

 

I wonder about both your reading skills and your cognitive powers, Clive, because in fact, my post both includes and comments on the quote where you said that, viz.

 

CliveH - 2011-06-30 8:10 PM

And Bruce is correct - the holiday legal entitlement is 20 days and the 8 bank holidays - making a total of 28 days.

 

It still is, however, quite simply, wrong!

 

A contract that offered this would, in many cases, be in line with the legal entitlement, but in other cases, it would not (it would depend on the particular working practice of the individual under his/her contract of employment).

 

It is NOT, therefore, the minimum legal entitlement to paid leave – though a contract drafted on that basis would meet the minimum requirement in some circumstances.

 

This is because, as I have always maintained, the legal minimum requirement is 28days, against which, at the employers option, paid Bank Holidays may be set (assuming that the Bank Holidays are taken and paid for). The legislation is worded this way to cover all circumstances, and to ensure that people who do not have the common working pattern of a 5 day, Monday to Friday week with all Bank Holidays off are treated equably, and still get the minimum 28 days entitlement.

 

If you can’t differentiate between the actual legal requirement, and simply one common way of implementing it contractually that would meet the requirement for some people but not for others, then I hope you never find yourself trying to defend your position in an employment tribunal.

 

CliveH - 2011-07-04 7:59 AM

What Bruce actually said was this:-

 

“Private sector.....20 days paid holiday minimum. NOT 28 days.

 

You’re just not keeping up Clive (I told you yours and Bruce’s post were convoluted ;-) )

Bruce subsequently rephrased his thoughts much more accurately in a later post to that which you reference above (which is what I complimented him on, though he seemed to take it the wrong way :-S).

 

He also at the same time took you to task for your continuing misunderstanding; viz

 

BGD - 2011-07-01 2:03 PM

Sorry to be such a pedant Clive, but even that is NOT what the law says

.

.

.

……..for most laymen it matters not whether one regards the minimum as simply "28 days" or as the, (to be completely accurate) "20 days plus 8 more days in recognition of the number of Public Holidays in England and Wales".

But there are detailed employment/shift pattern/industrial relations circumstances where not understanding the accurate legal basis would lead an Employer down the wrong, and potentially a very expensive, path.

 

You may wish to re-read the entirety of Bruce's post , as it is quite apposite, and a first step down the potentially very expensive path would be to continue to believe that the legal entitlement is encapsulated in the phrase “20 days plus (8) Bank Holidays”.

:-S

[Robinhood]

francisgraham - 2011-07-03 11:32 PM

 

I went across Striding Edge today in my ascent of Helvellyn and I'm almost wishing that I'd fallen off! Any chance of knocking this on the head for 20 days and 8 bank holidays? :-D :-D :-D 

 

Oh Francis, with all the rest of the Lakes (and Scotland, etc.) to savour and you're feeling suicidal - I feel that in the interests of your continued enjoyment I need to desist. :-D

 

....and frankly, if Clive can't "get it" in the simple terms it is now laid out, then there is little point in trying more. B-)

 

I did nearly fall of Striding Edge many moons ago, in unexpected snow conditions, and this was followed by an epic walk out via Dollywagon Pike.

 

During the next week I invested in both Ice Axe and Crampons (and new underpants) :D

 

They are now much-used, (stop sniggering at the back, I refer to the ice-axe and crampons) but despite many further ascents of Helvellyn via Striding Edge, never again there.

[postnote]

It is nonsense that public sector workers should expect to be immune from the job losses, pay and pension reductions that the majority in the private sector have been suffering for years.

 

They have lived in a gilded cage and been insulated from reality for far too long, chiefly because Labour lacked the moral fibre to address the problem while at the same time pursuing a wanton spending spree.

 

Now that the worldwide financial crisis is forcing massive re-appraisal of all Government and industrial plans, the public sector need to bear their fair share of the necessary burden and realise we are all in this together.

Protesting and marching is not the answer and will gain little sympathy from the hard-pressed majority.

(?)

[CliveH]

Oh dear Robinhood – you seem to be a bit of a sore loser Robin – cos I do get it – I feel it is you that has a) failed to show me where I said anything that does not concur with that which the TUC quote and believe me they have some of the very best legal representation on contract and employment law!

 

“Thanks to trade union campaigning, the government has now closed this loophole. UK workers have now gained better minimum holiday rights so that a full-time worker can get the European minimum of 4 weeks plus an extra 8 days - the number of bank holidays in most of the UK.”

 

What I get is that there is some SERIOUS word wriggling going on here!!!!!!!!!!!(lol) (lol) (lol)

 

[postnote]

CliveH - 2011-07-04 9:43 AM

 

Oh dear Robinhood – you seem to be a bit of a sore loser Robin – cos I do get it – I feel it is you that has a) failed to show me where I said anything that does not concur with that which the TUC quote and believe me they have some of the very best legal representation on contract and employment law!

 

“Thanks to trade union campaigning, the government has now closed this loophole. UK workers have now gained better minimum holiday rights so that a full-time worker can get the European minimum of 4 weeks plus an extra 8 days - the number of bank holidays in most of the UK.”

 

What I get is that there is some SERIOUS word wriggling going on here!!!!!!!!!!!(lol) (lol) (lol)

The more holiday the better, I only get 5 months a year holiday at the moment and any increase is welcomed.

:D :D

[Robinhood]

There certainly is some word wriggling going on :-).

 

Your continued posting, even with the example you've quoted, indicates you still don't get it.

 

I have no problem with the TUC example, which doesn't suport your ongoing argument of

 

"20 days plus bank holidays"

 

but does support my argument on the entitlement of 28 days (and further clauses defining how Bank Holidays play against this - or not).

 

The wording is the key. There is a significant, and not very subtle, difference between these two, reflected in the TUC wording you quote, which you don't seem to understand, but could lead you into a legal minefield with your stance.

 

As it appears I still can't make you understand that, and I've posted once more than I promised Francis (was that a dull thud I heard 8-) ), I'll now desist.

 

I would advise you, however, to try to understand the difference.

 

If you don't, or don't perceive there is a difference, then let us agree to disagree.

 

As to whether I'm a sore loser or not, frankly, it worries me not, I simply intervened in a debate on "facts" that was being used to "beat up" Donna. Given that the core issue seems relatively simple to me, I'm rather surprised, and disappointed, that it has gone on so long.

 

I'll leave the forum (if anyone else has bothered to get to this point) to judge the merits as they will.