HWO Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 Hi all Just doing a few under bonnet checks before the start of the trip. Notice that the plated gross weight that both Fiat and Autotrail have put on is 4250Kg. All publications that I have seen put the weight at 4005Kg for my model. Arrr I think's that is useful as I am probably sweating a bit at 4005Kg. I then go have a look at the log book and sure enough the stated weight is 4005Kg. At moment I am guessing and think that the plates under the bonnet are correct!!! and Autotrail for some reason used a incorrect chassis( perhaps they had run out of 4005Kg chassis on my build day and have upgraded me) I spoke to the dealer today and he reckons that I just need to send the Logbook to Swansea and it can be changed on the paperwork. Is it that easy???? And secondly if I am stopped by the boy's in blue,is my weight as plated or do they have a copy of MMM or something at the weighbrige to give them the figures to work by. Just of to phone Autotrail to see if they can throw some light on it Anybody got any views HWO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 In respect to how easy it is(should be!)to sort with Swansea?..well,that seems to depends on who just happens to deal with it. We were given the real run around by 'em,when trying to correct the weight shown on our V5(showed 3.5t but plate showed 3.85t). After several months..loads conflicting info' from them and endless phone calls,emails,"in-person" visits to local office(..generally getting faffed about!)..I ended up contacting the manufatcurer HQ(Chausson in France)in order to get written confirmation to present to Swansea... This did sort it,so if I was you I would definately get something in writing from Autotrail,before you even start contacting Swanea... ;-) Edit: Just thought I'd add..You'll probably get some replies giving the same advice that I was given.. "..just write on the V5 what it should be and send it off mate,that's all I did.." and "..take a photo of the plate and vehicle and just send that in.." or "..take it to your local DVLA office..." but none worked in our case... *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 Sv Tech at Chandler House, Talbot Road, Leyland, Lancs. PR25 2ZF Phone No 01772 621800 will be able to advise you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 Hi Howard, Is your Savannah on a Fiat or Alko chassis? The latest AT brochure only shows a Savannah as being available on a Fiat '40 Heavy' chassis at 4,005 kg. The larger models on the '40 Heavy' with the Alko chassis extension are quoted at 4,250 kg. So it would appear to me that one of 2 things has happened, first your Savannah has been built on an Alko chassis and should then be 4,250 kg OR secondly it is on a Fiat chassis and has been incorrectly plated as though it where a heavier model. Either way something is wrong and needs correcting. Next question, did you buy it brand new from a dealer earlier this year? If so I would expect the supplying dealer to correct this anomaly, and at their expense if any cost is incurred. HTH, Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 If I understand, both the Fiat VIN plate, and the plate attached by Autotrail, say 4,250kg? These are the plates VOSA and/or the police will rely upon. On the other hand, the V5C registration ducument says 4005kg. Information for the V5C is provided by the dealer, when he registers the vehicle. So, dealer is a prat, who didn't check his facts! Whats new? V5C neds changing, but taxation class, and VED, will remain the same. Should be done to avoid complications, and should really be done by the supplying dealer assuming you bought new, just to teach him to read more carefully! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 But my point Brian was that HWO's Savannah should not have been available on a 4,250 kg chassis. It is possibly either a 4,005 kg Fiat chassis incorrectly plated or has been incorrectly built on an Alko chassis at 4,250 kg. I do stand to be corrected on this as it is only my understanding from reading the latest AT brochure. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 13, 2011 Share Posted August 13, 2011 Keithl - 2011-08-12 11:15 PM But my point Brian was that HWO's Savannah should not have been available on a 4,250 kg chassis. It is possibly either a 4,005 kg Fiat chassis incorrectly plated or has been incorrectly built on an Alko chassis at 4,250 kg. I do stand to be corrected on this as it is only my understanding from reading the latest AT brochure. Keith. Evidently HWO's Savannah is a current model bought new in March 2011. See http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=22689&posts=14 As you rightly say, all the Auto-Trail on-line information (2010 and 2011 brochures, Weight Calculator) indicates that the X/250-based Savannah is/was only available on a standard 4005kg MAM Fiat chassis and that there is no Auto-Trail option to upgrade the MAM or to have the model on an Al-Ko chassis. I would have thought that the chances approach nil that HWO's Savannah has been built on an Al-Ko chassis 'by mistake' as (if it had been) the result would not be a Savannah! However, it's simple enough to confirm visually whether or not HWO's motorhome is on an Al-Ko chassis as the latter has independent rear suspension, while the standard Fiat chassis has an ordinary dead rear-axle. Odd though that both the Fiat and Auto-Trail data-plates contradict the 4005kg shown on Auto-Trail's website, but a waste of time trying to guess which is correct. Hopefully Auto-Trail will confirm that 4250kg is right as, otherwise, usable payload may well be tight. A follow-up... See the following recent MHF thread-page that describes a similar scenario to HWO's, but relating to a Mohawk model rather than a Savannah: http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-102697-days0-orderasc-30.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted August 13, 2011 Share Posted August 13, 2011 Well,if it's a relatively new vehicle,then indeed it should be the dealer who rectifies it....however,we all know how long winded it could turn out,if it's left in their hands "..he's not in today.." / "..she's not at her desk.." / "..he's in a meeting..he'll call you back.."... etc etc *-) Pester them by all means..but as I said earlier,I'd alsobe contacting Autotrail direct,with all the relevant details(vin/build no etc..)and asking for written confirmation of what the vehicle IS actually rated at..(..this is the approach that worked for us ;-) I wouldn't think this is an issue where the likes of SV tech need to be involved(..at least, not unless you end up wanting to "uprate" it"..) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flicka Posted August 13, 2011 Share Posted August 13, 2011 IMO you need get the Dealer to verify the corrct information from Autotrail & obtain a new Certificate of Conformity. This is not difficult, I had V5 showing only 2 Passenger (belted) seats & got a new Certificate from Swift's legal dept. for our Autocruise. This was forwarded to DVLA with the V5 & a correctewd V5 received within 10 days. The manufacturers C of C is the document DVLA require. Should be simple in your case as it does not involve a change of Vehicle class. Most problems occur when opgrading weight from 3500kg or lower to above 3500kg MAM or downgrading from >3500kg to <3500kg MAM. Is the Plate you refer to on the vehicle, Fiat's original or one added by Autotrail after conversion.? If it is the original Fiat plate, have a look for an Autotrail plate for comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWO Posted August 13, 2011 Author Share Posted August 13, 2011 Hi all On the road for a couple of weeks now . The dealer was not very helpful yesterday afternoon, and Autotrail are shut dinnertime on Friday I am on the Fiat chassis not ALKO so I suppose that means that the plates under the bonnet are wrong. Them extra 250Kg would have been very useful. Tempted to just to forget about it. I will have to contact Autotrail and dealers when I get home TKS for all the info HWO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 Does it 'Really' matter ?? the plates fitted to the vehicle are what a roadside check will be looking at. AND as they are in your Favour , I would leave well alone. The Logbook is only required at MOT time anyway. Enjoy the break and the unexpected windfall of extra loading capacity. Leave the Academic details to those who worry about those things. ( that doesn't mean i am 'Careless' about Overloading either). And who carries their V5C around with them ?? I certainly never do. Ray ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 In an earlier posting I provided the following link to a MotorHomeFacts thread: http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-102697-days0-orderasc-30.html This contains the following relevant (summarised) May 2011 postings: "After several months of what can only be described as a roller coaster ride I've signed the cheque and taken delivery of our brand new Autotrail Mohawk super lo-line... As a point of interest, Autotrail's literature shows the maximum permissible weight to be 4005kgs, giving a payload of about 500kgs. I noticed that Fiat's weight plate under the bonnet shows the MPW to be 4250kgs. Autotrail's plate (under the bonnet) also shows the MPW to be 4250kgs. I had previously wondered, considering the axle weights of 2100kgs and 2400kgs, if it could be uprated to 4250kgs. This, of course, doesn't make any difference to the driving licence required or the taxation class. It appears that both Fiat and Autotrail have already plated it as such. Would be interested to hear if all recent Mohawks (and Cherokees etc.) have been given the same treatment. This provides a very useful payload of about 750kgs, which is a lot more than I'll ever need. Mike" "Hi Mike, I spoke to Autotrail today - apparently FIAT have somehow uprated the new chassis so your new MAW of 4250 is correct... Cheers, Menis" "Menis, Thanks for that information. I thought that was the case. Checked all of the chassis numbers on all the paperwork for mine today to make sure there was no mix-up. All is OK. Even the certificate of conformity shows 4250kgs. Interestingly, I received the registration document from DVLA today (that was very quick... only registered last week). The revenue weight shown on that is 4005kgs, so it appears that even though Fiat have uprated the chassis they don't seem to have amended the V55 (the document used to first register a new vehicle) unless I'm missing something? I think that the taxation class and cost is the same whether it's 4005kgs or 4250kgs. Its a bit of an unexpected bonus getting a 245kgs more payload to play with. Mike." When a new motor vehicle is to be first registered in the UK, certain information needs to be provided to the DVLA by the applicant to allow registration to take place. If Form V55/4 is used by the applicant, then the vehicle's Maximum Permissible Mass (MPM) must be entered in Field 23 of the form. For vehicles with a MPM over 3500kg, an entry in the form's Field 21 ("Revenue Weight (kg)") must be made and a "weight certificate" must to be attached to the Form. Form V55/4 will be used by private individuals (it's what I used in 2005 when I UK-registered my imported Hobby), but motor traders may use a more streamlined, secure scheme. See: http://www.vca.gov.uk/vca/additional/files/enforcement-and-research-activities/secure-registration/v55-secure-registration.pdf "Mike" says on the MHF forum that his Mohawk's Certificate of Conformity (relating to the vehicle's Type Approval) and the vehicle's Fiat and Auto-Trail data-plate all specify a MPM of 4250kg. The implication therefore is that the "weight certificate" for his motorhome has 4005kg on it and this has resulted in the 4005kg figure turning up on his Mohawk's V5C registration document ('log book'). A vehicle's Revenue Weight is defined by the DVLA as follows: "Goods vehicles are taxed according to their "Revenue Weight". This is the confirmed maximum weight (i.e. gross weight or gross train weight) for vehicles that are subject to plating and testing. For non-testable vehicles, the revenue weight will be the maximum weight at which a vehicle can lawfully operate under construction and use limits (i.e. the design weight)." Everything points to HWO's Savannah's weight maximum being 4250kg not 4005kg. It's possible (I guess) that earlier Mohawks and Savannahs had a weight maximum of 4005kg and that this was only recently increased to 4250kg. This might explain why Auto-Trail's brochures and website show the lower figure for Mohawk and Savannah models - basically, because the brochures/website are now out of date. For practical purposes, while IWO operaties his Savannah in the UK, the anomaly on the V5C probably doesn't matter. It will be the 4250kg figures on the vehicle's data-plates that count if VOSA make a roadside overweight-check, and the UK VED taxation class and driving-licence entitlement requirements will be the same for 4250kg as for 4005kg. But it might matter if the vehicle were driven outside the UK and it's noticed that there's an apparent contradiction between the V5C and the data-plates. As the Mohawk mentioned on the MHF forum and HWO's Savannah share the same weight-datum quirk there's clearly something odd going on, presumably at the Auto-Trail end. If it were me, I'd e-mail Auto-Trail about this and demand they tell me what I should do to get the DVLA to alter the 4005kg to 4250kg. In order to get a V5C's Revenue Weight figure altered, a revised design weight certificate may be needed (that's what the on-line advice says) and presumably Auto-Trail would have to provide this. It may well be the case that IWO's dealer is correct in saying that IWO (now that he is the Savannah's registered owner) will need to take up the matter himself with the DVLA, but I'd expect the dealer to be pro-active in getting the matter resolved. After all, it was the dealer that registered IWO's motorhome and, as it's evident something cock-eyed has happened, it should be the dealer who endeavours to put matters right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWO Posted August 15, 2011 Author Share Posted August 15, 2011 hi Thanks for that Derek your input very useful as usual. I did'nt have time to read all your post fully on saturday night. I was just back from a barbie with the family and a bit too much vino. All looking good for me weight wise , I will be able to load some more wine in on the way home. On the phone to Autotrail when I get home All the best &thanks HWO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted August 15, 2011 Share Posted August 15, 2011 Rayjsj - 2011-08-14 4:35 AM Does it 'Really' matter ?? the plates fitted to the vehicle are what a roadside check will be looking at. AND as they are in your Favour , I would leave well alone. The Logbook is only required at MOT time anyway. Enjoy the break and the unexpected windfall of extra loading capacity. Leave the Academic details to those who worry about those things. ( that doesn't mean i am 'Careless' about Overloading either). And who carries their V5C around with them ?? I certainly never do. Ray ;-) If stopped by a Gendarme the first thing they usually ask for is the V5, if you have a theft from the vehicle foreign police will not issue a crime report you need for your insurance claim without seeing the V5. My V5 & insurance certificate live permanently in the van. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWO Posted August 30, 2011 Author Share Posted August 30, 2011 Hi all Finally spoke to autotrail today. Yes Fiat has upgraded the 4005 chassis to 4250(exellent). Seems that they kept it a bit of a secret when,why, and how, but they have The man from AutoTrail is sending me a covering letter to send to DVLA, with my log book to be changed. Part of our last trip was to the Malvern Show, and I did a bit of a survey of similar Autotrails Some were 4005 some 4250 One chap had his plated at 4250 by Fiat and 4005 by Autotrail, God knows how he gets on. Any how them extra bottles of wine will soon be completely legal. All the best HWO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 Excellent..Glad to hear that worked out in your favour... ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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