michele Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Hubby has his mind set on the Bessacarr 799 I am still looking . Versatile rear bunks The 696 really shines when it comes to its rear bunks, though. The ladder to the top bunk is fixed to the wall – a welcome departure from having to mess around with removable ladders – and the lower bunk can be lifted and secured out of the way to create a tall load area in the rear. Swift's designers have included a sliding partition that cordons this area off from the rest of the rest of the 'van, effectively creating a rear garage. This is tall enough to swallow bicycles and can be accessed from an external door. All in all, this is a very flexible feature that will prove useful if you don't need all six of the Escape's berths. This would be great for us But my question is as we have wheelchairs that do not fold they are moulded around the children would the garage doors be wide enough to take them . I cannot seem to find a picture of this garage nor what they have done to store the bottom bunk when not in use has anyone seen this model at a show yet . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Hi Michele ( again). I think on the 696 as the bunks are across the back the garage door is quite narrow and small, I do not think it is as wide as the habitation door, it is certainly not more from memory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michele Posted February 3, 2012 Author Share Posted February 3, 2012 Thank you so much . My computer is on its way out I think I am having trouble at this end and can't seem to find anything . Now I can see a picture I think maybe I wouldnt fit moulded wheelchairs into that door .I cant get them through the last hab door so ..its looking like this model is out also . I will try to post a pic better still I will get my daughter to do it . *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michele Posted February 3, 2012 Author Share Posted February 3, 2012 Sorry about the mess . What a job to go these photos . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Leake Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Just a thought. It is obviously going to be difficult to obtain a motorhome that fits your requirements so why not consider towing a light weight enclosed trailer to take the wheel chairs thus freeing up more space inside. Not ideal I know but we used to tow one sometimes when our lads went racing. They tow very well and are so light that they are easy to handle on site and hook up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michele Posted February 3, 2012 Author Share Posted February 3, 2012 Colin , I have managed to fimd the Bessacarr 799 but I was just asking does anyone know of any others I have to have the DD to enable the kids to be strapped in with a Houdini harness which just basically keeps them in place and stops them falling /slipping . I think it was Flicka who e mailed me with this one ? and although if hubby gets his way it will be bessie which I don't mind at all , just didnt want to go for the only model WE know of .. As for towing the towing itself isnt a problem but I really could never get the hang of the jointed vehicle reversing and I cannot imagine having a big beast and finding out I have to unhitch it to fit into a gap etc etc .. We did think of it BUT went off the idea very quickly . Wheelchair I should of said the seat comes off the frame but the frames dont fold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Leake Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 You would have to unhitch to reverse because such trailers are much narrower than your motorhome which means you would not be able to see it. However such trailers are very light and well balanced making it possibile to remove and manoeuvre with one hand. May still be worth having a look at one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 If you could get folding wheelchair frames would it make life easier? Someone surely makes suitable folding frames and this would increase you scope for storage. No doubt costs a fortune though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michele Posted February 4, 2012 Author Share Posted February 4, 2012 Brambles thats the problem seemingly you get attached to aWheelchair service through the schools and you get what you are given . I so far have never queried how much they cost but this one isnt very good compaired to the old one this one tips when in the backwards sleeping position . So on the next appointment I will ask how much to buy it . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flicka Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Michele Get in touch with your local Hospital Wheelchair services. The children should have a proper professional assessment to ensure they get the RIGHT wheelchair for their needs. For my wife's Electric Wheelchair, the Spinal Injury Unit came up with 3 models. Also, we found that getting in an independant assessor, who was much more specific in determining the choice & identifying the correct seat & backrest cushions. If you decide to go independant (i.e your choice of wheelchair) they should still be entitled to a part payment. (although you may be restricted as to which suppliers you can use- depending on your local Health Authority) This way you can usually reduce delivery times considerably, Although I must add, there are some restrictions, (future ownership, etc..) & in the end we decided to go totally independant. Send me a PM if you need a contact for an independant assessor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Leake Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Many years ago when my lads used to race model cars all round the place one of the drivers had a son who was stuck in a push type wheel chair which meant he had no independence at all and because of his age the health service would not provide him with an electric one so we all clubbed together and bought him one. The difference that made to little John's life was most rewarding. During the lunch breaks he used to drive it round the track and we all used to stand and chair him on each time he finished a lap. Mind you even in those days they were mega expensive and it needed a few of us who had the means to chip in a bit extra to make it possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pheasantplucker Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 Hi Michele, I have heard of a company which could alter the size of your door possibly, depending on ther available width inside making it worthwhile. Also, someone we see occasionally has a specialised motorhome constructed in Italy. His wife is wheelchair-bound and the hab. door is very wide and the rear of the van becomes a wet-room with the carpet lifted out of the way. He has recently had a wheelchair lift fitted to save having to manually push up a ramp. Sorry I have no more detail but if this is of interest maybe someone could tell you more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
takeaflight Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 May be of no interest what so ever, but on occasions I tow a large box trailer, even empty you can just about push it by hand assuming it's on a flat tarmac surface. However loaded on any surface no way. Looked at a caravan mover, but you really need an independent battery and as I have several trailers ideally I only wonted to purchase one piece of kit. I came across camper trolley So for hitching up the trailer or just moving it around the barn it's proved very useful. Roy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolero boy Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 michele - 2012-02-03 4:42 PM Hubby has his mind set on the Bessacarr 799 I am still looking . Versatile rear bunks The 696 really shines when it comes to its rear bunks, though. The ladder to the top bunk is fixed to the wall – a welcome departure from having to mess around with removable ladders – and the lower bunk can be lifted and secured out of the way to create a tall load area in the rear. Swift's designers have included a sliding partition that cordons this area off from the rest of the rest of the 'van, effectively creating a rear garage. This is tall enough to swallow bicycles and can be accessed from an external door. All in all, this is a very flexible feature that will prove useful if you don't need all six of the Escape's berths. This would be great for us But my question is as we have wheelchairs that do not fold they are moulded around the children would the garage doors be wide enough to take them . I cannot seem to find a picture of this garage nor what they have done to store the bottom bunk when not in use has anyone seen this model at a show yet . Michelle, if you are interested in a large 700 series Bessacarr, surely the E789 or equivalent Swift 679 wiuld give you a huge garage under the transverse double - or do you need singles specifically? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 bolero boy - 2012-02-12 12:30 PM michele - 2012-02-03 4:42 PM Hubby has his mind set on the Bessacarr 799 I am still looking . Versatile rear bunks The 696 really shines when it comes to its rear bunks, though. The ladder to the top bunk is fixed to the wall – a welcome departure from having to mess around with removable ladders – and the lower bunk can be lifted and secured out of the way to create a tall load area in the rear. Swift's designers have included a sliding partition that cordons this area off from the rest of the rest of the 'van, effectively creating a rear garage. This is tall enough to swallow bicycles and can be accessed from an external door. All in all, this is a very flexible feature that will prove useful if you don't need all six of the Escape's berths. This would be great for us But my question is as we have wheelchairs that do not fold they are moulded around the children would the garage doors be wide enough to take them . I cannot seem to find a picture of this garage nor what they have done to store the bottom bunk when not in use has anyone seen this model at a show yet . Michelle, if you are interested in a large 700 series Bessacarr, surely the E789 or equivalent Swift 679 wiuld give you a huge garage under the transverse double - or do you need singles specifically? Perhaps I can answer for Michele on this, as we've discussed it off-forum. The challenge boils down to identifying motorhomes that offer a double-dinette (DD) with sufficient seat-belts, enough berths to sleep Michele's family and enough storage to carry two non-folding wheelchairs. There are Swift/Bessacarr models that can meet some of these requirements, but I don't think any single Swift/Bessacarr model meets all of them. A Bessacarr E-789 has the rear-garage storage capacity, but no DD. A Bessacarr 799 has a DD (though not enough seat-belts as standard), but the rear twin single-bed layout may well prevent the wheelchairs being stored in the space available beneath the beds. To obtain a genuine 'garage' with a rear twin single-bed layout requires the beds to be high-mounted, and an E-799's are not. If the DD, number of berths and wheelchair storage are 'non negotiable' requirements, then the motorhome nearest to meeting them so far identified is Auto-Trail's Frontier Chieftain, with some additional features from the Auto-Trail options list. It might be possible to amend the specification of a Bessacarr E-789 to provide the DD and belts, but I'm unconvinced that the end result would be better than the Auto-Trail equivalent. Michele's requirements suggest that a linear layout will be the logical solution - overcab design; DD at the front; rear high-mounted double-bed over garage; kitchen, bathroom and wardrobe(s) in the middle. This layout inevitably produces a long motorhome which, in turn, normally means a Fiat base with a tandem rear-axle chassis. As far as I'm aware all such motorhomes have similar maximum weight limits, so, if lack of payload is a feature of one manufacturer's vehicle, that's going to be equally true for other manufacturers' designs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michele Posted February 12, 2012 Author Share Posted February 12, 2012 Beautifully put Derek. Its getting harder as each day goes by . I have looked at all of them now until blue in the face and to be quite honest I am getting dizzy with it all. Up above someone has kindly posted a picture of a garage for me . I am hanging towards the AT commanche . OH does not think it is big enough but above the garage is taking a bike . The wheelchairs are no wider than a bike handles and certainly no taller . The only good thing that I can see is we will have the larger of the two chairs with us at Excel so I wonder do you think its possible they might try and let us put it into the garage on one of the display models . Everytime I look I get more and more confused *-) whilst thats not hard for me it is annoying for example Bessies gross weight seems to take more than AT 's commanche. I know I started this thread as a cheiftan and must be driving people dotty by now but I am really struggling with it all.I don't find swifts website to be very good at all and on most photos ATor swift they dont seem to want to show externally any vehicle on anything but the left hand side of it (view) so I cannot seem to get a picture of the garage . I am only guessing it will be quite tall . Shame really . What is a real shame and a non plus point is people are willing to buy these vehicles but you start to look and the photos dont stick to say a Bessie with a over cab bed and half dinnet and the exact bed for that model they divert off to show you another bed for another model. This drives me mad . When I ask for a catalogue I wish they would just show it as its was I understand that it costs fortunes and people waste the catalogue s but find it so bloody frustrating when I finally think I am looking at say the E799 only to find out that I am looking at half of one model and half of another . By the time I,ve been to the show and been dragged around in and out of loads of vehicles I am swamped with it all and brain overloaded. :'( .Can anyone see the photo above of Fred in her wheelchair , do youthink I would fit that in a garage of say the commanche or bessies equivilent . If not its back to teh Chieftan which I dont mindbut If I can help it I would rather stay smaller + these will fit on our drive and the Chieftan wont . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flicka Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Hi Michele For comparison between the Bessacarr & Autotrail models. (but all with the All the Bessacarr E700 Hi-Line models are:- Maximum Technical Permissable Laden Mass (A) 5,000kg (or MAM) Overall Length 8.56m Overall Width (Mirrors Folded) 2.35m Overall Height 3.08m E789 Mass in Running Order (B) 4,250kg Maximum User Payload (A-B) 750kg E799 Mass in Running Order (B) 4,195kg Maximum User Payload (A-B) 805kg Autotrail Frontier models - Commanche & Chieftain are 17cm or 7" longer than the Bessacarr E700's Commanche including option of Double Dinette with 4 seat belts MAXIMUM AUTHORISED WEIGHT: 5000kg Mass in Running Order(MRO): 4125kg MAXIMUM AVAILABLE PAYLOAD 875kg Length 8.73m (28.7') Width 2.31m (7.7') Heights inc. aerial (Hi Line) 3.07m (10.1') Chieftain including option of Double Dinette with 4 seat belts MAXIMUM AUTHORISED WEIGHT: 5000kg Mass in Running Order(MRO): 4050kg MAXIMUM AVAILABLE PAYLOAD 950kg Length 8.73m (28.7') Width 2.31m (7.7') Heights inc. aerial (Hi Line) 3.07m (10.1') Looking at the photo's on the Autotrail website, I think the Garage on the Commanche model will be too narrow for the Wheelchairs. They Garage on the Chieftail is shown wider. BUT as it may be difficult to take Freddie out of her chair at Excel, do take a tape measure to check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
747 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Derek Uzzell - 2012-02-12 2:19 PM bolero boy - 2012-02-12 12:30 PM michele - 2012-02-03 4:42 PM Hubby has his mind set on the Bessacarr 799 I am still looking . Versatile rear bunks The 696 really shines when it comes to its rear bunks, though. The ladder to the top bunk is fixed to the wall – a welcome departure from having to mess around with removable ladders – and the lower bunk can be lifted and secured out of the way to create a tall load area in the rear. Swift's designers have included a sliding partition that cordons this area off from the rest of the rest of the 'van, effectively creating a rear garage. This is tall enough to swallow bicycles and can be accessed from an external door. All in all, this is a very flexible feature that will prove useful if you don't need all six of the Escape's berths. This would be great for us But my question is as we have wheelchairs that do not fold they are moulded around the children would the garage doors be wide enough to take them . I cannot seem to find a picture of this garage nor what they have done to store the bottom bunk when not in use has anyone seen this model at a show yet . Michelle, if you are interested in a large 700 series Bessacarr, surely the E789 or equivalent Swift 679 wiuld give you a huge garage under the transverse double - or do you need singles specifically? Perhaps I can answer for Michele on this, as we've discussed it off-forum. The challenge boils down to identifying motorhomes that offer a double-dinette (DD) with sufficient seat-belts, enough berths to sleep Michele's family and enough storage to carry two non-folding wheelchairs. There are Swift/Bessacarr models that can meet some of these requirements, but I don't think any single Swift/Bessacarr model meets all of them. A Bessacarr E-789 has the rear-garage storage capacity, but no DD. A Bessacarr 799 has a DD (though not enough seat-belts as standard), but the rear twin single-bed layout may well prevent the wheelchairs being stored in the space available beneath the beds. To obtain a genuine 'garage' with a rear twin single-bed layout requires the beds to be high-mounted, and an E-799's are not. If the DD, number of berths and wheelchair storage are 'non negotiable' requirements, then the motorhome nearest to meeting them so far identified is Auto-Trail's Frontier Chieftain, with some additional features from the Auto-Trail options list. It might be possible to amend the specification of a Bessacarr E-789 to provide the DD and belts, but I'm unconvinced that the end result would be better than the Auto-Trail equivalent. Michele's requirements suggest that a linear layout will be the logical solution - overcab design; DD at the front; rear high-mounted double-bed over garage; kitchen, bathroom and wardrobe(s) in the middle. This layout inevitably produces a long motorhome which, in turn, normally means a Fiat base with a tandem rear-axle chassis. As far as I'm aware all such motorhomes have similar maximum weight limits, so, if lack of payload is a feature of one manufacturer's vehicle, that's going to be equally true for other manufacturers' designs. You have just described a Burstner 747 which also has a huge payload. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pheasantplucker Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 I understand the confusion aspect Michele. We didn't have a major requirement list other than an island bed and a garage large enough for a (mobility) scooter, but it took a few times looking to make sure we had the right one in our minds to order. Just a thought, but any which meet most of your needs, take some pics or video with your own phone or camera, most of which allow audio commentary or comment. Might pay to empty the memory card to give enough room if you plan to view a lot of vans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 747 - 2012-02-12 11:05 PM ...You have just described a Burstner 747 which also has a huge payload. There's a list of possibilities on http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=26471&posts=17 and you'll note that the Burstner Argos A747-2G was one of them. Regarding payload, no X250 Ducato-based motorhome has a maximum overall weight above 5000kg, so the available payload will depend on the vehicle's design, specification and construction. As it's improbable that any Ducato 5000kg MAM 3-axle motorhome can weigh much less than 4000kg empty, 'basic' payload can't be much above 1000kg, while 'realistic' payload for a 6-seat/6-berth model will be much lower. MMM's Buyers' Guide quotes, for the Burstner, a payload of 700kg, which seems about average for the breed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 pheasantplucker - 2012-02-12 11:40 PM.................Just a thought, but any which meet most of your needs, take some pics or video with your own phone or camera, most of which allow audio commentary or comment. Might pay to empty the memory card to give enough room if you plan to view a lot of vans. In fact, I don't think it is that difficult, because there are very few vans that have the load carrying capacity for Michele's requirement, as stated. Of these, there are only two, both variants on the same van, that will accommodate Michele's family requirement with ease, allowing sufficient margin that they would, basically, not have to worry about overload. These are the Dethleffs Globetrotter XXL-A 9000-2 6,700kg MAM, and the Dethleffs Globetrotter XXL-A 9800-2 6,700kg MAM. Both have a catalogue 1,490kg payload, and both are based on the Iveco chassis. Neither is particularly elegant, but both are functionally sound, rear wheel drive, motorhomes by a manufacturer with an excellent reputation for a quality product. They are also, apparently, one of the largest sellers to Scandinavia, because of the full winterisation packs available. Since Michele also has a certain penchant for snow, meaning mountain snow, meaning bleedin' cold :-), the XXL Globetrotter seems to me the best, almost the only, fit for her needs. All the other vans, with the possible exception of the Hobby Sphinx (also on Iveco, but the lighter 5,200kg MAM chassis), and with varying degrees of difficulty, require care in loading. However, Michele is attracted to the Auto-Trail, and it is clearly the winner on "beauty contest" grounds. My great reservation with the Auto-Trail is not that its overall payload is inadequate, although as a 6 berth 6 seat van I personally think it is right at its limit, but the great practical difficulty that is presented by the fact that the sum of its three axle maxima exceeds its MAM by only 100kg. In a van so long, this gives very little practical margin for load distribution, so that one or other axle is highly liable to reach its limit before the van overall reaches its MAM. In effect, the payload is limited by a factor that is very difficult to cater for in loading, raising the prospect of every trip having to be preceded by a trip to a weighbridge, followed by a certain amount of re-distributing load, and re-weighing, before the van is within its legal maxima. Added to this, is the particular difficulty of disabled children, who will grow and gain weight, and whose changing needs may require more, and heavier, support facilities in future. If I'm honest, I also think the A-T has a Mickey-Mouse heating system only suited to mild winters, and would be way out of its depth in harsh Alpine conditions. So far as I can see, it also has an underslung fresh water tank, and possibly underslung water and waste conduits, meaning that in practical terms it is a winter-wonderland non-starter - especially with front wheel drive, and with disabled children on board. So, it's beauty versus the beast! The beast wins on functional grounds, but beauty, ever in the eyes of the beholder, is the more tempting. Head versus heart. Classic dilemma! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 michele - 2012-02-12 4:39 PM Can anyone see the photo above of Fred in her wheelchair , do youthink I would fit that in a garage of say the commanche... Hi Michele, I've found a review of the AT Comanche on the AT website under 'News and Events' 'Road Test Reviews' entitled 'Which Magazine 2011'. It says that the garage locker door measures 630mm Wide by 840mm High. Is this big enough for Fred's chair? If not there is a review of a 2008 Chieftain on MMM Link. Although this doesn't state sizes it shows very good photos of RH side of MH. Hope this is of some use and good luck with your search, Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
747 Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 It is the front axle that runs close to maximum on all AlKo chassis tag axle vans Brian. There is plenty of spare capacity on the 2 rear axles. They are rated at 1500 Kg each and 2000 Kg on the front. After putting mine on a weighbridge I redistributed the load. Luckily with a false floor, there is a huge storage capacity from front to back. The downside for Michele might be the extra step up into the van hab area because of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michele Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 Brian, If I'm honest, I also think the A-T has a Mickey-Mouse heating system only suited to mild winters, and would be way out of its depth in harsh Alpine conditions. So far as I can see, it also has an underslung fresh water tank, and possibly underslung water and waste conduits, meaning that in practical terms it is a winter-wonderland non-starter - especially with front wheel drive, and with disabled children on board. WEll it is the very thing that has us real worried although I am sure if we like it we can get around it somehow (?) (?) 8-) 8-) 8-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michele Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 747 - 2012-02-12 11:05 PM Derek Uzzell - 2012-02-12 2:19 PM bolero boy - 2012-02-12 12:30 PM michele - 2012-02-03 4:42 PM Hubby has his mind set on the Bessacarr 799 I am still looking . Versatile rear bunks The 696 really shines when it comes to its rear bunks, though. The ladder to the top bunk is fixed to the wall – a welcome departure from having to mess around with removable ladders – and the lower bunk can be lifted and secured out of the way to create a tall load area in the rear. Swift's designers have included a sliding partition that cordons this area off from the rest of the rest of the 'van, effectively creating a rear garage. This is tall enough to swallow bicycles and can be accessed from an external door. All in all, this is a very flexible feature that will prove useful if you don't need all six of the Escape's berths. This would be great for us But my question is as we have wheelchairs that do not fold they are moulded around the children would the garage doors be wide enough to take them . I cannot seem to find a picture of this garage nor what they have done to store the bottom bunk when not in use has anyone seen this model at a show yet . Michelle, if you are interested in a large 700 series Bessacarr, surely the E789 or equivalent Swift 679 wiuld give you a huge garage under the transverse double - or do you need singles specifically? Perhaps I can answer for Michele on this, as we've discussed it off-forum. The challenge boils down to identifying motorhomes that offer a double-dinette (DD) with sufficient seat-belts, enough berths to sleep Michele's family and enough storage to carry two non-folding wheelchairs. There are Swift/Bessacarr models that can meet some of these requirements, but I don't think any single Swift/Bessacarr model meets all of them. A Bessacarr E-789 has the rear-garage storage capacity, but no DD. A Bessacarr 799 has a DD (though not enough seat-belts as standard), but the rear twin single-bed layout may well prevent the wheelchairs being stored in the space available beneath the beds. To obtain a genuine 'garage' with a rear twin single-bed layout requires the beds to be high-mounted, and an E-799's are not. If the DD, number of berths and wheelchair storage are 'non negotiable' requirements, then the motorhome nearest to meeting them so far identified is Auto-Trail's Frontier Chieftain, with some additional features from the Auto-Trail options list. It might be possible to amend the specification of a Bessacarr E-789 to provide the DD and belts, but I'm unconvinced that the end result would be better than the Auto-Trail equivalent. Michele's requirements suggest that a linear layout will be the logical solution - overcab design; DD at the front; rear high-mounted double-bed over garage; kitchen, bathroom and wardrobe(s) in the middle. This layout inevitably produces a long motorhome which, in turn, normally means a Fiat base with a tandem rear-axle chassis. As far as I'm aware all such motorhomes have similar maximum weight limits, so, if lack of payload is a feature of one manufacturer's vehicle, that's going to be equally true for other manufacturers' designs. You have just described a Burstner 747 which also has a huge payload. WE have had your very beautiful Burstner although it was our Hobby to us . Beautiful van for two of us but I felt very hemmed in at the back . It is lovely but we are very restricted to getting Fred onthe back bed she weighs a ton 8-) And if she is ill which is often we have a real problem with the seating arrangement we are very closed in and really looking for a bit more lounging comfort . For us two its fine but not what we are liking with the kids .Thanks you anyway for your help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.