PeterJR Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I have a 1989 Autosleeper Trident Camper on a VW T4 chassis with a 2.5 L petrol engine. Apparently the 2.5 petrol was not produced in large numbers and the Distributor (from VW Germany) is now obsolete. Whilst driving, occasionally the engine dies, literally; not petering out as happens when running out of fuel but just stops firing. On the last occasion before taking it to my garage, which incidentally has very good mechanics, the engine died five times in two miles. When it dies, if left for about 5 mins., on turning the key, it starts again without trouble until the next episode. To summarise some of the episodes; eight times in 28 miles, then once on the return journey, two weeks on the road without fault and then the final straw mentioned above. The garage Mech. had it die once on his way taking it back to the garage. The fault first appeared very intermittently in mid-October 2011. Eventually I took it into my garage in early December – where it has effectively remained since (instead of being in S.Spain !!!) Subsequently they have fitted a new petrol pump, filter and sensor replacement; another sensor, coil and ignition mod., distributor cap and rotor arm, and the fuel pipe all replaced – on the assumption that when the engine ‘died’ (as opposed to spluttering to death as would normally happen with fuel starvation) the fault has to be an electrical ignition fault. Someone has suggested an earth short , someone else the alternator, (another person - Mice) but if the alternator were so then the battery would go flat and the engine would ‘die’ slowly. Since these have been done, and finding that juice was going into the distributor but not coming out to the plugs, the distributor has been sent off for test and found to have no fault. Whether this included vibration during the test is unclear – but probably not a factor since the engine died once whilst standing stationary outside my home and once at the garage - which is how they found out about the non-transference of juice to the plugs and were able to get a meter across it. The current attempt is to replace the ‘haws / halls’ Centre in the distributor. (Don’t know how it’s spelt - neither does anyone we’ve spoken to - but it’s a possibility) Now we begin to clutch at straws. I’ve had to cancel a booked trip to Spain (and fortunately got my Ferry fare refunded) and managed to get the insurance put into abeyance – but what do I do with an unexplained fault? At the moment the van is still in the garage, I can’t do anything with it until it’s repaired and even if I wanted to sell it (which I don’t) who would want to buy it? I daren’t tell my wife how much it’s cost me so far !! If anyone has suggestions as to possible cause or remedies, I will be pleased to hear of them. Many thanks, PeterJR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 PeterJR - 2012-02-07 5:32 PM The current attempt is to replace the ‘haws / halls’ Centre in the distributor. (Don’t know how it’s spelt - neither does anyone we’ve spoken to - but it’s a possibility) Hi Peter and welcome to the forum. I'll have a think and maybe post later regarding your main problem but in the meantime here is a link to Wikipedia to explain how a HALL EFFECT sensor works. Until later, Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterJR Posted February 7, 2012 Author Share Posted February 7, 2012 Thank you Keith, I'm looking forward to you 'think' PeterJR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 If you are now reduced to grasping at passing straws - here are a few - probably not of any use as my car electrics knowledge base began in the 50s - but I'll mention them just in case and run the risk of looking old fashioned and silly - again! I know nothing of how your distributor and ignition system works but if it has what used to be known as a condenser anywhere in the system I would certainly suspect that! I don't suppose it is anything as silly as a loose damaged or dirty ignition supply fuse overheating or intermittently making and breaking contact is it and then working again when it cools down? I don't suppose you can check to see if 12 volts is actually getting to the coil whilst it is not working mood as again an intermittent break in the 12 volt supply cable is a possibility - as are non connecting connectors - and the main HT lead? Obviously not plugs and individual HT leads as they (it) would cause a misfire rather than total cut out? All pretty basic stuff I know and probably already checked - but also easy to overlook maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobalobs Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Hi Peter. How your post brings back our early camping nightmare in the mid 80's in a VW Devon Moonraker. In France and without warning the engine would cut out ( sometimes when in the fast lane!!) and would not restart for minutes or hours. Spent a fortune on ignition parts only for it to be finally diagnosed in the UK as "mastic" in the fuel tank which was being sucked by the fuel pump to the outlet and then being held there by the vacuum until it was eventually released. The mastic got in the tank when a feed for an Eberspacher heater was fitted to the tank but anything in the tank can cause trouble. Worth a look if you can get to access to the tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
everhopeful Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Am I right in assuming we are dealing in good old-fashioned technology rather than computer controlled stuff? If the garage have correctly found that it is an ignition fault, there isn't much left that could cause such a fault apart from the distributor, coil or earthing. Don't assume that having something "sent off for testing" is a definitive answer. Substitution is a far safer way to prove an intermittent fault. I've come across garages that haven't a clue about electrics. If there isn't a computer interface to tell them where the fault is they resort to guesswork! So, do you trust that your garage really saw power at the distributor with nothing coming out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Good thought - is the earth strap doing what it is supposed to? Although that would probably affect starting and charging too? Can we assume that the coil is properly earthed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pheasantplucker Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 A very rare one - two actually- although I presume yours is air-cooled and this one won't apply but once on a Ford Corsair and again on a Alfa Romeo I had a very small hole in the radiators which sprayed such a fine stream of water it was first detected at night by torchlight (at the roadside) straight onto the coil. The Ford used to misfire, the Alfa cut out. The other was a car which had the old contact breaker (or points) in the distributor which open by cam on the distributor shaft and somehow the shaft was getting hot enough to melt the plastic attached to the points so they wouldn't open. When cooled enough the plastic hardened and seemed OK apart from the points needing adjusting. Just suggestions for when all else has failed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Brown Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Hi If it is pre computer then look at the following in this order. Condenser. They used to get hot and stop working until they cooled down. Only remedy - replace. Coil. This had similar charactistics, not necessarily associated with heat, they just decided to have a rest then come back to life. I agree with above that it does not seem to be fuel as lack of fuel strangles the engine rather than killing it. The culprit would seem to be electric. Bad earth should affect starting but bad connection from the coil HT should be looked at as that is immediate kill but I wouldn't expect it as time does not heal - it is intermittent but if it kills then unless you play with the leads it stays dead - just thinking out loud. The VW does not have any additional feature inserted in the ignition circuit does it? Lots of bits on the electric side can close down with over heat then come back to life when cooled. Not familiar with VW but do remember an oddball on Vauxhalls which caused problems from time to time. Your description would indicate an overheating problem. That's overheating of an electric circuit not the engine. When cooled it works again. There are obviously many other things which could cause your problems and I, together with others on this forum, would be interested to hear what the solution eventually is. If your model has a computer brain box then completely disregard the above, get your mat out and pray. They were, I am sure, designed by the motor trade to totally confuse everyone, including the motor trade and enable them to charge what they wanted to arrive at a solution. Best of luck Art Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flicka Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I wouldn't rule out the HT Leads. At that time I think many vehicles were still using Carbon track HT Leads & there were problems if the carbon started to break down causing the type of fault you are experiencing. If still the original leads they are now over 20years old & well past their Sell By Date. Simple to rectify with new HT Leads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Collings Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 This engine has the digifant fuel injection sytem. A quick wizz around the internet suggest there have been problem with poor earthing of the digifant ECU ( electronic control unit) . Intermittent heat related problem in the ECU might shut off fuel supply totally until the unit cools off. I will check further. tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Collings Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 After some more research on the net. Re the ECU earthing problem. There is an earth bond from the ECU usually to somewhere close typically a bolt on the transmission housing. If a bad connection the voltage finds alternative paths that can damage internal ECU components. If the ECU is suspect this company may be useful. http://www.atpelectronics.co.uk/pages/contact.html A bit of guesswork but It appears the system picks up engine speed data info from the Hall effect unit to determine ignition timing. The ECU delivers an electronically controled presumably 12v pulse to the ignition transformer generating a high voltage for delivery to the conventional distributor. A look at a number of VW wiring diagrams shows that normally the ignition switch supply is unfused. this powers up a fuel pump relay and another master relay for the digfant system, There is a fuse between the pump relay and the pump. This fuse would be top of my list for checking and cleaning. This fault is almost certainly age related when corrosion of connectors and internal wire breakdown begins to occur. Ask at your local taxi rank for the best auto electrician in your area. Impartial advice is well worth a decent drink. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dikyenfo Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 I think it easier to just buy a complete kit of electronic ign. which will have a new hall effec switch and make new connections everywhere. some now are so powerful you can jump a spark in multi-form over an inch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laimeduck Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 bobalobs - 2012-02-07 7:55 PM Hi Peter. How your post brings back our early camping nightmare in the mid 80's in a VW Devon Moonraker. In France and without warning the engine would cut out ( sometimes when in the fast lane!!) and would not restart for minutes or hours. Spent a fortune on ignition parts only for it to be finally diagnosed in the UK as "mastic" in the fuel tank which was being sucked by the fuel pump to the outlet and then being held there by the vacuum until it was eventually released. The mastic got in the tank when a feed for an Eberspacher heater was fitted to the tank but anything in the tank can cause trouble. Worth a look if you can get to access to the tank. Yes - I had very similar symptoms in an old Jaguar XJ6, I had put fuel treatment into the tank to clean the injectors & it had loosened all the crud in the tank itself which then proceded to block the fuel pump intermitantly. I was lucky as my local garage chap is a magician and he was able to get the pump out of the tank without dropping the rear subframe to replace it. Problem then solved! I don't know where the petrol pump is on your VW, but its worth a look ;-) Also I drive a 1986 Citroen 2CV, and I concur about the Coil and the Condenser (& therefore points) - all of these, if duff, can cause very poor starting & cut outs. I replaced the lot last year & have had no further problems. :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul- Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Keithl - 2012-02-07 5:42 PM PeterJR - 2012-02-07 5:32 PM The current attempt is to replace the ‘haws / halls’ Centre in the distributor. (Don’t know how it’s spelt - neither does anyone we’ve spoken to - but it’s a possibility) Hi Peter and welcome to the forum. I'll have a think and maybe post later regarding your main problem but in the meantime here is a link to Wikipedia to explain how a HALL EFFECT sensor works. Until later, Keith. I was going to say the crankshaft sensor would be worth trying before spending too much (halls sensor) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Hi Peter, I hadn't forgotten your request and have been reading other replies with interest and Paul's post immediately above has jogged my memory of a link that was posted a while ago on this forum. It is to Pico Technology who manufacture diagnostic oscilloscopes for diagnosing just such problems as you have. Have a read of the case studies this guy has cured and then possibly see if you can find someone near you who has access to this kind of equipment. Or, it may even lead to a cure for your problem, eg the Hall effect sensor which was mis-aligned to the teeth it was meant to be sensing. Hope this helps (even a little), Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterJR Posted February 11, 2012 Author Share Posted February 11, 2012 Gentlemen, Thank you very much for your assistance and interest. I received 10 messages on the same day that I posted, and a further 5 the next day. I have collated all of your replies and sent them by ‘e’mail to my garage and hopefully I will get a response soon. Preferably a note to say that the ‘van has now been repaired. I will keep you posted of the eventually diagnosed fault, and remedy (Hopefully !!!) Thank you again, Peter R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 Thanks for the update Peter and I hope it gets sorted. It's always good when someone takes the trouble to thank others for trying to help as courtesy does seem to be a dying art these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 flicka - 2012-02-07 10:50 PM I wouldn't rule out the HT Leads. At that time I think many vehicles were still using Carbon track HT Leads & there were problems if the carbon started to break down causing the type of fault you are experiencing. If still the original leads they are now over 20years old & well past their Sell By Date. Simple to rectify with new HT Leads. Just what I was going to suggest, especially the HT lead from coil to distributor cap, which works hardest. The carbon gets moved within the lead until a gap opens that the spark can't jump, but when the engine is turned off, the carbon migrates back enough for it to fire again. Replace, if possible, with copper core HT leads - though I think you may then need to check radio suppression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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