over 3500kg issues

[Robinhood]

Mel B - 2012-08-26 9:22 PM

 

Bas - does that also apply to when it is being towed using the 'bar' that they make specially for it which raises the front wheels off the road, making it more 'trailer-like'?

 

....I think that was explicitly what he was referring to.......and I would agree with him. :D

[treborsiwel]

My motorhome is over 3500 (4250 7.5Mtr) and I have driven all over France. Including most of the scenic areas and barring very small lanes, where you would struggle with any sized motorhome. I have never encountered a single problem so I would not worry at all. At best just pay attention to your speed and look out for the 3.5 signs, and trust me i keep looking but they appear few and far between.

 

Also re speed limits in France if the size and speed of the numerous A class models that over took me are anything to go by i would not worry at all!! As I travel at mostly 75 (well that's what the Sat Nav tells me) and the A Class and other, oddly PILOTE motorhome drivers certainly rocked me as they shot passed.

 

I would not worry about the weight at all unless obvious licence restriction, and buy what layout suits your needs.

 

[Basil]

Thanks Robinhood, yes I guessed you were doing a tongue in cheek and did imagine someone using an 'A' however yes Mel that is exactly the method I was referring to, it is illegal under C&U Regs as the vehicle is fitted with brakes on the rear wheels, so when being towed they MUST work, but they don't!

 

Wikersham gave incorrect information on this a while back in MMM but when I asked for clarification and or an explanation of how it was legal from both him and the MMM editor I did not even get the courtesy of a reply from either!! Makes me wonder about the competence of the writers in MMM sometimes!

 

Bas

[Derek Uzzell]

Basil - 2012-08-26 11:19 PM

 

Thanks Robinhood, yes I guessed you were doing a tongue in cheek and did imagine someone using an 'A' however yes Mel that is exactly the method I was referring to, it is illegal under C&U Regs as the vehicle is fitted with brakes on the rear wheels, so when being towed they MUST work, but they don't!

 

Wikersham gave incorrect information on this a while back in MMM but when I asked for clarification and or an explanation of how it was legal from both him and the MMM editor I did not even get the courtesy of a reply from either!! Makes me wonder about the competence of the writers in MMM sometimes!

 

Bas

 

John Wickersham towed one of these microcars for years and photos of it used to appear regularly in JW's towing-related articles. I don't think JW ever claimed that it was a legal practice (though the implication was certainly there!) but there can be no doubt that it is not.

 

There are several Qpod-related earlier forum postings. In this 2006 thread Dave Newell points out that a Qpod's brakes make it a 'braked trailer' when being towed and, consequently, there must be a system to operate a towed Qpod's brakes.

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=5851&posts=3

 

Basil discussed the issue in some depth in 2009

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=16884&posts=31

[lennyhb]

Retread24800 - 2012-08-25 9:26 PM

 

In France many towns and villages ban all vehicles over 3.5T MGW (PTAC) so you will be barred from some of the most picturesque areas, some of the byways are also similarly limited.

 

We have noticed over the last couple of years the ban on vehicles over 3.5 tonne is spreading fast most of the villages in the Massif Central appear to have it.

[Robinhood]

lennyhb - 2012-08-27 12:14 PM

 

 

We have noticed over the last couple of years the ban on vehicles over 3.5 tonne is spreading fast most of the villages in the Massif Central appear to have it.

 

....though, as set out above, they may well be restrictions that do not affect motorhomes.

 

There are severalways of signing such limits, one example is (hopefully) shown on Google Streetview here (and it's in the Massif Central :-) ):

 

http://goo.gl/maps/miymn

 

...as the restriction is accompanied by the pictogram of a lorry, it does not apply to motorhomes. (see Roger's text and the French Ministry link I posted).

 

[Retread24800]

Robinhood - 2012-08-27 1:40 PM

lennyhb - 2012-08-27 12:14 PMWe have noticed over the last couple of years the ban on vehicles over 3.5 tonne is spreading fast most of the villages in the Massif Central appear to have it.

....though, as set out above, they may well be restrictions that do not affect motorhomes.There are several ways of signing such limits, one example is (hopefully) shown on Google Streetview here (and it's in the Massif Central :-) ):http://goo.gl/maps/miymn ...as the restriction is accompanied by the pictogram of a lorry, it does not apply to motorhomes. (see Roger's text and the French Ministry link I posted).

Furthermore it doesn't apply to Light delivery vehicles under 3.5t or heavier vehicles making a local delivery, It seems as if the intention is quite clear, we do not want HGV's using our town as a short cut, there's probably a perfectly usable alternative route. ;-)

 

On another post, I some times worry about the morality of a person who self-justifies law breaking when a guest in a foreign country, Try explaining to a gendarme! on the basis that  the locals do that,  ( Many A classes are under 3.5t and thus able to travel @90/110/130).

 

[Robinhood]

Retread24800 - 2012-08-27 1:35 PM

 

On another post, I some times worry about the morality of a person who self-justifies law breaking when a guest in a foreign country.......

 

......I quite agree with you; though given the regularity of such occurrences on here, I thought you might have become inured to them. ;-)

[peacock312]

well done buying an Adria 670 ours is an excellent van,now nearly 3yrs old,20kmiles,no real probs,BUT check WEIGHT,as reported by me on here before ,we thought ours was only 3500kgs.mgw,but it turned out to be 4000kgs.our model is S670SL special edition 3ltr 160bhp on large alloy wheels,it was sold to me as 3500kg,and we had awfull problems with DVLA getting it put right check,check again,dont trust any dealer,i did,it cost me dear,the Adria brochure for 2009/10 states it as 3500kg,i have only ever seen one other model exactly like ours and it has a white cab as opposed to our silver one,hope this may help you avoid all the hassle we had.Dave

[Mel B]

Basil - 2012-08-26 11:19 PM

 

Thanks Robinhood, yes I guessed you were doing a tongue in cheek and did imagine someone using an 'A' however yes Mel that is exactly the method I was referring to, it is illegal under C&U Regs as the vehicle is fitted with brakes on the rear wheels, so when being towed they MUST work, but they don't!

 

Wikersham gave incorrect information on this a while back in MMM but when I asked for clarification and or an explanation of how it was legal from both him and the MMM editor I did not even get the courtesy of a reply from either!! Makes me wonder about the competence of the writers in MMM sometimes!

 

Bas

 

It was due to Wickers doing it that confused me - not difficult at times! I knew he had one but as has been said, that didn't mean it was/is legal although I agree it did/does imply that ... *-)

[Derek Uzzell]

Robinhood - 2012-08-26 4:28 PM

 

Pete-B - 2012-08-26 2:50 PM

 

Sorry to steal your thunder on this but when I turned seventy I forfeited my C1 so I drive a 3500 Kg van which has a towbar, am I allowed to tow a small car with A frame on my present license?

 

...having relinquished your "grandfather rights", I believe you will be covered by the "Category B" rules, outlined here:

 

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/CaravansTrailersCommercialVehicles/DG_10013073

 

....which (given the weight of the motorcaravan) effectively means you will be limited to towing a trailer (or car on A frame) up to 750kgs MAM.

 

I'm deliberately sidestepping any questions around the use of an A frame. B-)

 

I believe the position for drivers with 'grandfather rights' that provide them with a C1 driving licence entitlement is that they will also have a "B+E" entitlement 'embedded' within their "B" entitlement.

 

When such a driver reaches age 70, although the C1 entitlement will normally be revoked, the B+E entitlement remains. On that basis, it should be legally permissible to drive a motorhome up tp 3500kg MAM towing a 'trailer' (eg. a small car on an A-frame) that has an over-750kg MAM. Obviously, the towing vehicle's maximum train weight could be a limiting issue, but that won't affect the driving licence entitlement.

 

This is discussed here

 

http://www.caravantalk.co.uk/community/topic/41837-driving-licence-at-age-70/

[Robinhood]

....after a quick review, Derek, I think you're correct - though the B+E category is effectively a "grandfather right" much like others for "historic" licence holders, I can only find reference to the removal of C1 and D1 (unless specifically continued under the appropriate conditions) at age 70. :-S

 

(To be fair, I did check the Directgov site before my OP. I was misled by the same wording being used on the specific page for the towing rights as used elsewhere for the "over-3500kg" rights., viz

 

Car licences held before 1 January 1997

 

All drivers who passed a car test before 1 January 1997 retain their existing entitlement to tow trailers until their licence expires. This means they are generally entitled to drive a vehicle and trailer combination up to 8.25 tonnes MAM. They also have entitlement to drive a minibus with a trailer over 750kgs MAM.

 

(as with "over-3500kg" the expiry and re-issue occurring at 70)

 

It would appear that there is a drop back to the equivalent of B+E, not a removal. Not the easiest of sites to get consistency from ) :-S

[Derek Uzzell]

The 2nd part (MMM December 2004) of Mel Eastburn's guide "It ain't heavy - It's my motorhome" contains a section headed "Driving licences and getting to the age of seventy". This includes the statement

 

"You may retain entitlement to B and, if you have it, to B+E (so you can tow trailers over 750kg MAM) without a medical certificate..."

 

Mel E tended to be obsessive about the accuracy of what he wrote (though he wasn't always right!) and there is enough other (credible) on-line stuff to suggest that he was correct in this instance.

 

However, I've not been able to find any clear 'official' statement on the lines of "At age 70, a driver with a B+E driving licence entitlement can retain this without providing a medical certificate". I'm sure that's what happens, but (as there seems to be so much confusion about this in the towing community) it would be nice if all doubts were removed.

 

There is an earlier thread about this on the "Caravan Chat" forum

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=24823&posts=6

 

2009 Caravan Club advice is here

 

http://www.caravanclub.co.uk/media/1022874/drivers-licences-mo.pdf

[Brian Kirby]

So the answer to PeteB is not "no" as I incorrectly said, but "probably". Providing the towed vehicle remains within any stated towing restriction on his van, and the van + towed car remain within his GTW, he should be able to tow as he intends, or possibly by mounting his car on a trailer - which would be "safer" from a legal standpoint if he intends going abroad.

 

I searched all over the government websites, and on several forums, looking for anything official in support of Derek's statement, because I had previously understood that all Grandfather rights were lost at 70 - unless the D4 is completed, and medical tests taken every two years to maintain those rights. I found only one statement that, from its style, appeared to have come from a government document - but the poster had reproduced it without link or credit, so its value was dubious. However, that statement was very clear that B+E would be retained and only the C and D categories are lost. It was the only thing that appeared clear, authoritative, and convincing. Elsewhere, all I found was fog and great confusion! :-)

 

AFAIK, the only restrictions on B+E are that the trailer must not exceed the unladen (note, not MIRO) weight of the towing vehicle, the GTW must not be exceeded, and the combined weight of the outfit must not exceed 8.25 tonnes. The most onerous condition with most 3,5 tonne and lower MAM motorhomes will be GTW.

 

So, sorry Pete, if I initially depressed you (but it would be wise to check what your new licence categories actually are, as there have been reported instances of 70+ licences being returned showing the wrong categories), and thank you Derek for spotting something I had not appreciated. An interesting wrinkle that seems to have caused immense confusion on a number of towing related forums, and which is still the subject of animated discussion on them! We lives and we learns! :-)

[Keithl]

A quick quote from Direct.Gov for now...

 

"For driver licensing purposes there are no vehicle/trailer weight ratio limits for category B+E"

 

So, unlike for category B, the trailer can be heavier than the towing vehicle as long as permitted against plated weights.

 

I'll look for more info re age 70 later.

 

Keith.

[Robinhood]

As posted above, I can find DVLA text that implies that gradfather towing rights are lost when the licence expires (paralleling similar wording for the "weight" rights), but the advice on renewing at 70 only covers the weight categories, and not towing, in regard to the medical requirements.

A bit of a mish-mash.

Having said that, it seems most likely that B+E can be retained without a medical (albeit it isn't clear to me whether this would be automatic).

As the OP has a reissued license, the truth (for him at least) will be evidenced by what codes it has.

[Brian Kirby]

But elsewhere, as I quoted, they say that for licences gained before 1/1/97, B+E is limited to 8,25 tonnes!

 

So, FWIW, I've e-mailed them and asked them to clarify which is right, and to clarify what is the position on B+E with licences gained before 1/1/97, when the licence holder reaches age 70.

 

Not easy, is it! :-)

[Derek Uzzell]

And just when it seemed that a degree of clarity had been achieved

 

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/DG_201202

[Pete-B]

Brian,

 

Just checked my license and it states I have categories B, BE, FKLNP, G.

[Robinhood]

Pete-B - 2012-08-28 7:15 PM

 

Brian,

 

Just checked my license and it states I have categories B, BE, FKLNP, G.

In which case, to all practical extents you will be limited only by the GTW or maximum towing weight of your motorcaravan. This may well allow towing of a car on an A-frame (ignoring any of the ongoing debate over their legality).

There are absolute limits on weight imposed by the BE category being discussed above, but these will almost definitely be higher than the technical limit imposed by your vehicle.

(....and as I'm posting this by 'phone from France, I'll leave the continuing research to others ;-))

[Brian Kirby]

Pete-B - 2012-08-28 7:15 PM

 

Brian,

 

Just checked my license and it states I have categories B, BE, FKLNP, G.

As Robin says above, and its "au revoir" from him! :-) Just check the van's GTW.

[thebishbus]

My wife has just renewed hers at 70, it covers her for B,BE, f,k,i,n,p. I think the small print may be provisional only.

Brian B.

ps mine at seventy with a medical covers B, BE C1, C1E,D1,D1E. f,k,i,n,p.

[Robinhood]

Brian Kirby - 2012-08-28 8:58 PM

 

Pete-B - 2012-08-28 7:15 PM

 

Brian,

 

Just checked my license and it states I have categories B, BE, FKLNP, G.

As Robin says above, and its "au revoir" from him! :-) Just check the van's GTW.

 

It's Robin, alledgedly, not Ronnie ;-)

 

.....and heading for Deutschland, I prefer tschüss. :-)

[Brian Kirby]

Brian Kirby - 2012-08-28 6:06 PM

 

But elsewhere, as I quoted, they say that for licences gained before 1/1/97, B+E is limited to 8,25 tonnes!

 

So, FWIW, I've e-mailed them and asked them to clarify which is right, and to clarify what is the position on B+E with licences gained before 1/1/97, when the licence holder reaches age 70.

 

Not easy, is it! :-)

 

So, I emailed the DVLA on 28/8/2012 as follows:

 

Dear Sirs

 

Could you please clarify an apparent contradiction on the Directgov website. Please use the following links to the pages in question.

 

First, http://tinyurl.com/2f4tao where, under the section entitled “Car licences held before 1 January 1997” it states “All drivers who passed a car test before 1 January 1997 retain their existing entitlement to tow trailers until their licence expires. This means they are generally entitled to drive a vehicle and trailer combination up to 8.25 tonnes MAM.”

 

Second, http://tinyurl.com/c3cjsx where, under the section entitled “Category B+E: Vehicles up to 3.5 tonnes MAM towing trailers over 750kgs MAM” it states “For driver licensing purposes there are no vehicle/trailer weight ratio limits for category B+E.”

 

Does this imply that only those drivers who passed a test before 1 Jan 1997 are subject to the 8.25 tonnes MAM limit, or that one, or other, of the two statements is incorrect?

 

With reference to the first link above, could you also please clarify what is the case when a driver who passed their test before 1 January 1997 reaches 70 years of age, when their licence expires and must be renewed, with respect to category B+E? I understand this “grandfather right” is not automatically lost, but which of the two above statements would then become applicable? As you will see, the position post age 70 is not addressed on the web pages.

 

Many thanks, and kind regards

 

Brian Kirby

 

Their reply: on 29/8/12, states:

 

Dear Mr Kirby

 

Thank you for your email received on 28/8/12. Your email reference number is 1013622.

 

I can confirm that drivers who passed their car test before 1st January 1997 have entitlement to drive 16 passenger seat minibuses (not for hire or reward) and vehicles up to 7.5 tonnes and to attach a trailer to these vehicles. These entitlements will be retained by these drivers until their licence is next renewed, normally this will be on the drivers 70th birthday or if they have a medically restricted licence every 1 or 3 years.

 

Drivers who renew their licences at age 70 or are renewing a medically restricted licence, and wish to retain their entitlement to drive a minibus up to 16 passenger seats (not for hire or reward) and vehicles between 3.5 and 7.5 tonnes, (with or without a trailer) have to meet higher medical standards.

Please see the list provided below with information on driving licence entitlements:

 

Cars with and without trailers:

Category B - Motor vehicles with a Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM) not exceeding 3500kg having not more than eight passenger seats with a trailer up to 750kg. Combinations of towing vehicles in category B and a trailer, where the MAM of the combination does not exceed 3500kg and the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen mass of the towing vehicle (minimum age 17*).

 

Category BE - Combinations of vehicles consisting of a vehicle in category B and a trailer, where the combination does not come within category B (minimum age 17).

 

Medium sized vehicles with or without trailers:

Category C1 - Vehicles between 3500kg and 7500kg with a trailer up to 750kg (minimum age 18*).

 

Category C1E - Combinations of vehicles where the towing vehicle is in subcategory C1 and its trailer has a MAM of over 750kg provided that the MAM of the combination thus formed does not exceed 12000kg and the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen mass of the towing vehicle. (If you passed your category B test prior to 1.1.1997 you will be restricted to a total weight not more than 8250kg)(minimum age 21*).

 

Minibuses with or without trailers:

Category D1 -Vehicles with between nine and sixteen passenger seats with a trailer up to 750kg (minimum age 21*).

 

Category D1E - Combinations of vehicles where the towing vehicle is in subcategory D1 and its trailer has a MAM of over 750kg, provided that the MAM of the combination thus formed does not exceed 12000kg, and the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen mass of the towing vehicle (minimum age 21*).

 

Do not reply to this email. If you wish to contact us again about this response then please use our Reply Form or copy and paste the following URL in to your browser:

 

https://emaildvla.direct.gov.uk/emaildvla/cegemail/directgov/en/reply_form_drivers.html

 

When filling in the form the email reference number 1013622 will be required.

 

Regards

 

T Rowe

Customer Enquiries Group

DVLA

 

So, I e-mailed back on 29/8/2012.

 

Please refer again to my attached question, which relates to retained B+E rights post age 70.

 

Unfortunately, your reply did not address this, and I should be grateful if you would clarify this point.

 

Could you please also address my question regarding which of the two versions of the Directgov website, as quoted in the attached, is correct; both before, and after, age 70?

 

It seems both cannot be right.

 

Kind regards

 

Brian Kirby

 

Their further response, on 30/8/2012, states:

 

Dear Mr Kirby

 

Thank you for your email received on 29/8/12. Your email reference number is 1014691.

 

For further assistance with your enquiry please phone our Enquiry Unit.

 

Tel: 0300 7906 801

 

Monday to Friday 8.00am to 7.00pm

 

Saturday 8.00am to 2.00pm

 

 

So, I phoned on 31/8/2012, and the advice given was:

 

When you reach 70 years of age and renew your licence you retain category BE which allows you to tow a trailer. It was stated that BE, and B+E, are one and the same thing.

 

It was stated that although this category is limited to towing combinations up to 8.25 tonnes combined MAM on existing “grandfather rights” licences (3.5 tonne MAM vehicle towing 4.75 tonne trailer [3.5t + 0.750t = 8.25t]), it becomes “unlimited” as to trailer weight post age 70 on the renewed licence. It was claimed that there is, therefore, no conflict between the two statements as quoted above from the Directgov website. Make of that what you will!

 

It was further stated that the above “unlimited” trailer weight for BE licence purposes is subject to the trailer MAM not exceeding the unladen weight of the towing vehicle. I asked where this was stated, as it was not referenced on their website, although I had seen it elsewhere. I was told if I wanted such detailed answers, I should write to DVLA setting out my queries. I explained I had already written via their e-mail system, as provided by their website, and had been expecting a written response. I was informed that e-mail doesn’t count for this purpose, and only a paper letter would gain such detailed replies.

 

I pointed out the desirability of changing the advice on the Directgov website, to remove the considerable confusion that exists on this matter, and was told DVLA management had decided making such a change was not commercially justified.

 

So, having consulted the horse’s mouth, and finding the reply came from its nether end, I looked on the Caravan Club website, and then phoned to them. Their document dated April 2009 can be accessed here: http://tinyurl.com/9qrtrv4 under “DRIVERS LICENCES IN A NUTSHELL”.

 

This states:

 

“YOUR DRIVING ENTITLEMENT ON RENEWING AT THE AGE OF 70

On reaching the age of 70, drivers will retain their driving entitlement for Category B and Category B+E (provided Category B+E was held prior to the expiry date of their driving licence).

 

Category B+E entitles drivers to drive a motor vehicle (ie car, van or 4x4) not exceeding 3.5 tonnes Maximum Authorised Mass* (MAM), drawing/towing any weight trailer/caravan within the prescribed maximum towing weight.

 

The maximum towing weight will be specified in the technical data section of the vehicle manufacturer’s handbook. However, Club recommendations on weight ratio between trailer and towing vehicle remain at 85%. *The terms ‘Maximum Authorised Mass’, ‘Gross Weight’ and ‘Permissible Maximum Weight’ all have the same meaning, ie the weight of the vehicle plus the maximum load the vehicle may safely carry.

 

When drivers of any vehicle over a MAM of 3,500kg reach 70 years of age and their driving licence expires they must pass the D4 Medical Test and pass the required standard eyesight test at 20.5 metres/67 feet with glasses used when driving. This legislation became effective from 1 January 1998.”

 

I then asked if they knew where the above stated requirement for trailer MAM not to exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle came from. They explained that my DVLA informant was wrong, and this requirement applies only to those who had taken their car test after 1 Jan 1997, but had not taken the additional towing test. The further (unstated by DVLA) restriction for these licence holders is that the combined MAM of tow vehicle + trailer must not exceed 3,500kg.

 

In practise, and this is the important bit for those whose licences already show category BE, or B+E, these categories will be retained when they renew their licences at 70, and the only constraint on what they can tow will be the GTW of the motorhome.

 

By contrast, anyone driving a motorhome plated at 3,500kg whose licence shows only category B, should be guided by the following, taken from DVLA factsheet INF30 “Driving Licensing Requirements for Towing Trailers in Great Britain, which states:

 

“Category B vehicles may be coupled with a trailer up to 750kg MAM (allowing a combined weight up to 4.25 tonnes MAM) OR a trailer over 750kg MAM provided the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle, and the combination does not exceed 3.5 tonnes MAM.”

 

Clear? :-D

[747]

I am greatly surprised that this subject was not more widely known on here.

 

It seems that I am a bit ahead of the game. When I reach 70, I will either downsize my van or swap to a 5th wheel. It all depends on my health, wealth and outlook on life. :D