nuevoboy Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 When away in the 'van last week I discovered a small weep from one of the pipe fittings adjacent to the dump valve, under the offside seat. It appears as if it's an elbow joint connected directly onto the shoulder of the dump valve. I imagine these are just push fittings, so the questions are: 1. Do they just literally pull apart? 2. Is there any way of sealing them again? 3. Where do I obtain replacements? My 'van's due for a habitation service in a few weeks, so it could be done then, but I'd like to sort it myself if possible. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Not sure on that particular type, but most pushfit have a 'ring' or collar that needs pushing in to release them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flicka Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Hi nuevoboy Although not the same as those shown in your photo, there are some tips on this page, that may help. http://www.jgspeedfit.co.uk/Home/Technical-Support.aspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wooie Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Hi Brian, I had the same problem on a couple of the joints in my system. As Colin says there is a little collar that pushes in and that will release the pipe. From looking at the picture i noticed that the joints are not " Square or Straight ". The joint to the left of the " Drain valve " is not square...i.e. 90 degrees and the joint to the right of the valve is not straight either. I know in the ideal world that there should be some tolerance in the joints but in reality i found that by squaring and straightening everything up the leaks stopped. If you shorten the bottom long blue pipe a little and take out the 2 screws on the valve everything will square up and then replace the screws. It`s a little fiddly and time consuming with having to pressurise and the drain the system each time but might be worth it. If that fails then parts are readily available from the dealers. I`m sure there will be plenty of people on here disagree with me ( they usually do ) but all i`m saying is that it worked for me and it might be worth a try. In my opinion if the manufacturers took a little more time and effort then silly little things like this and the likes of screws, catches etc. etc. not connecting or even missing would not happen. Awaiting all incoming FLAK !! Regards. Graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 The photo is of a standard manually-operated Truma safety/drain valve http://www.leisureshopdirect.com/marine/home/product_31457/Safety_Drain_Valve_-_John_Guest_12mm.aspx It would be worth trying Graham's suggestions, though the joint that's leaking looks pretty 'square' to me. I'd be tempted to remove the two John Guest (JG) fittings (ie. the two black 90-degree fittings used to join the blue hose in the front of the photo to the drain-valve), separate the JG fittings and swap them over so that the JG fitting currently connected to the hose then connects to the drain-valve. If that doesn't fix the leak, a replacement drain-valve will probably be needed. Make sure that the JG fitting that pushes into the drain-valve is fully home. As long as the O-ring seal within the drain-valve's connection is OK, just removing the JG fitting, pushing it right back in, and giving it a firm pull backwards to 'set' the seal may fix the problem. In fact, just giving the JG fitting a firm pull away from the drain-vave may fix the leak without doing anything else. (There is also the possibility that the drain-valve has developed a crack and that's what's causing the leak.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Collings Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 I am with Brian. The joints look out of alignment to me. My first try before draining down would be to unscrew the valve and try to realign the pipe runs to remove any sideways loads on the connections. My guess is that the long blue pipe is constrained by the hole in the wall where it comes into the compartment at the lower right of the pic. Enlarging the hole downwards might do the trick. Dependant on access to both side of the hole it might be possible to drill another alongside then carefully using a padsaw cut into the existing hole. Handstands using power tols are such fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuevoboy Posted October 31, 2012 Author Share Posted October 31, 2012 Thanks for all your suggestions and comments. We've had the 'van for 2 years now and it's only just started weeping. I've never had anything placed over the top of it to disturb it and it occurred before the first frosts last week! I wasn't sure if the blue stepped shoulder either side of the dump valve was actually part of the valve fitting or extra connectors and it's hard to see if there are any collars between them and the elbows to release the fittings themselves. I've alreadt drained down the system so will try and take the fittings apart over the weekend and see what happens. Thank again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 There's a clearer picture of the drain-valve here: http://www.alde.co.uk/itemdetails.php?itemId=13 You will have realised by now that the valve's stepped shoulders are part of the valve's blue plastic main body. To disconnect the fitting on each side of the valve you push the black "collet" (that's visible in the end of each stepped shoulder) firmly into the shoulder - you may well have to use a tool like a wide-bladed screwdriver to do this. Then, while continuing to hold the collet firmly in the pressed-in position, you should be able to pull the fitting through the collet and out of the stepped shoulder. Similarly with the two black right-angled fittings - push in and hold in the collet, then pull the fitting (or blue hose) through the collet. Looking at your photo suggests that it might be easiest to begin by separating the black right-angled fitting (that's connected to the front blue hose) from the other black right-angled fitting where the two fittings join. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuevoboy Posted November 1, 2012 Author Share Posted November 1, 2012 Thanks Derek, that link really is a clear picture and thanks to that and your description I now understand what to expect. I was going to have a look at it this morning, but have done my back in getting out of bed and can't bend down to get anywhere near the damn fittings I'm afraid. *-) Will hopefully get down to it sometime soon. Much obliged, n'boy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuevoboy Posted November 3, 2012 Author Share Posted November 3, 2012 Well, I managed to get the fittings undone, after a lot of effort, as there wasn't any gap between the elbow and the collar that had to be moved back. I cleaned them up a bit and swapped them around. Refilled the fresh water system, and switched the pump on...... .....and the pump is operating slowly & quietly but will not refill (pressurise) the system. Going away in the 'van for a few days tomorrow, so looks like we'll be living out of a freshwater bottle. *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 ......you haven't left the valve open by any chance.....? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 nuevoboy - 2012-11-03 7:30 PM .....and the pump is operating slowly & quietly but will not refill (pressurise) the system. ) You may well have an airlock caused by - err - letting air into the system when you disconnected it all! One solution is to suck boldly on a tap spout (using a short bit of hose extension if your head is the wrong angle to get your mouth on t'spout!) whilst the pump is running and water in t'tank. That usually clears an airlock but often results in a face full of cold water too - and the reason for using a short bit of hose is that the water then continues to flow into the sink and not all over you and the carpet! Suck it and see! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuevoboy Posted November 3, 2012 Author Share Posted November 3, 2012 Hi chaps, firstly although it's a thing I'm quite capable of ;-) , I did remember to close the valve! Secondly, I had thought that it could be an airlock, but what's the difference me doing what I did and a general drain down, which if done correctly, would have led to air in the pipes anyway. I've done a couple of drain downs in the past and the pump's always managed to repressurise. :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 .....OK. There is a non-return valve in your original picture (blue, with the arrow on it). If you've had it apart, have you re-installed it in the same direction? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wooie Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 Hi Brian, If all else fails...... " Shoot The Bugger ".........LOL No seriously, i once had a problem re-pressurising my system. I tried everything and nothing worked. A friend said try a quick run out, a few miles should do it. I went out drove 5 or 6 miles maybe, pulled into a layby turned the pump on and after 30 seconds or so bingo ! I presume it was an awkward " Air Lock " that must have moved with the driving. Got home and there was still a little air in the system but that soon cleared with running the pump more. I know the pumps are supposed to be " Self- Priming " but............................ It`s only a thought and might be worth a try. Hope this helps Regards. Graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuevoboy Posted November 3, 2012 Author Share Posted November 3, 2012 Hi again, to try and rectify the small weep that I originally had, I removed the two 90 degree elbows from the dump valve, cleaned them up a bit and refitted them (but swapped around). I didn't remove the dump valve, which I didn't think was a non-return one. As mentioned, we're off for a few days tomorrow, so will see if the movement of the 'van has any effect when we get there. That actually worked when I had an airlock in the toilet flush previously (although it didn't solve the problem this time around, as that's out of action too!) Thanks again for your suggestions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 ....the non-return valve isn't in the dump-valve, but is the next blue fitment (you can see the directional arrow in your first picture) at the other end of the valve from the elbows you removed. If you haven't removed that, then it seems unlikely to be a suspect. :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuevoboy Posted November 3, 2012 Author Share Posted November 3, 2012 Well I guess I should've gone to Specsavers! Try as I might, I couldn't see the arrow you were referring to and even now it's only vague to me. Thanks to you, I have now learnt a little bit more about how the system works (or doesn't *-) ). Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 A bit late as you've now gone off for a few days, but... Modern submerged (submersible) water pumps will normally 'self prime' once they have been covered by water - but not always. If air bubbles form in the pump's casing an air-lock may occur preventing the pump from delivering water to the taps. If the submerged pump can be accessed (say it's in an Aquaroll-type container) giving it a good shake should cause the air bubbles to be released. That's probably why, when Graham drove his motorhome, the water sloshing about in the vehicle's fresh-water tank caused the air bubbles to be released from the pump. In your case, the simplest check would have been to open the drain-valve and then turn a tap on. This would cause the pump to operate and, as there would only be a shortish distance between the pump in the water tank and the drain-valve, this should give the pump a better chance to self-prime. If that didn't work, then the next step would be to remove the non-return valve and turn a tap on to start the pump. If the pump still won't prime with the non-return valve removed, and driving the vehicle doesn't produce a cure, then something is up with the pump. Sadly, just because a submerged pump has chosen to cooperate by self-priming in the past after a drained water tank has been refilled, doesn't mean it will continue to do so indefinitely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuevoboy Posted November 7, 2012 Author Share Posted November 7, 2012 Latest update... driving the 'van 65 miles on our recent trip didn't solve the problem by giving the pump a shake! I then tried Tracker's suggestion of trying to suck air through the pipes with the pump on. As I'm not a contortionist, I couldn't get my head round the sink taps, so removed the showerhead and used the hose instead. I couldn't get any air through, no matter how hard I sucked (and yes, I did have the control lever open). *-) Regarding Derek's recent posting and suggestions: I don't think my pump is classed as a "submersible" as it isn't housed within the freshwater tank, but is underneath the offside seat and above the fittings discussed (i.e. drain valve and elbows where the original leak occurred). I'm not sure if Derek's suggestions would work in my case, but it's worth a try. However, my 'van is booked in for a habitation service next week and I've notified the service department of the problem and will look at it anyway. Thanks once again for your comments and suggestions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 nuevoboy - 2012-11-07 6:14 PM I then tried Tracker's suggestion of trying to suck air through the pipes with the pump on. As I'm not a contortionist, I couldn't get my head round the sink taps, so removed the showerhead and used the hose instead. I couldn't get any air through, no matter how hard I sucked (and yes, I did have the control lever open). *-) In that case, and assuming the pump was running, it sounds like there is a problem with the non return valve sticking as even if no water comes through air certainly should when you suck - was the pump running - did you remove, check or alter the non return valve in any way? Best way to check a non return valve is remove it and suck/blow through it to ensure that it is neither blocked, stuck or fitted the wrong way round. It should allow water to flow uphill from the tank to taps but not downhill back to the tank - just in case anyone is wondering! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuevoboy Posted November 7, 2012 Author Share Posted November 7, 2012 Hi Rich, all that I did was to remove to two right-angled elbows (as shown in original photo) from the drain valve connector, clean them up and swap their positions around before refitting. I certainly didn't remove the non-return valve from the system at all. I'm getting a bit pushed for time ( visitors to collect etc.) before the hab service next week but if I can, I'll have a crack at removing the NRV and see if it appears blocked. Thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 I had assumed that the presence of a non-return valve (NRV) meant that a submerged/submersible pump had been fitted by Auto-Sleepers, but plainly that's not the case. A diaphragm pump should not only self-prime but, in principle, not require a non-return valve in the water system as the pump itself should prevent water from draining back into the tank. Logically, if there's a blockage 'upstream' of a diaphragm water-pump, sucking through the taps won't work - if the pump can't suck water (or air) through the blockage a human's lungs won't be able to. If the drain-tube from the drain-valve is accessible from beneath the motorhome, sticking the end of the drain-tube in a container of water, leaving the drain-valve open and running the water-pump should (may) confirm whether or not the NRV is the culprit. If te pump can pick up water from the container, there's probably a blockage on the tank side of the drain-valve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuevoboy Posted November 8, 2012 Author Share Posted November 8, 2012 Hello again, I managed to get a look at the NRV this morning. I removed it from the system and it is possible to blow down it one way and not t'other. ;-) Re-connected and still no joy. I even made sure there is enough water in the fresh tank to cover the amount required for the boiler. That's probably nonsense but getting desperate now. :-S What would be interesting (to me at least) would be to see a diagram of a typical water system within a 'van (similar to a wiring diagram for instance). Does anyone know of a simplified version anywhere? I guess it is the pump itself that has had it and it's just one of life's many mysteries as to why it should pack in at the same time as me trying to alleviate a minor problem elsewhere in the system. *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 nuevoboy - 2012-11-08 9:39 PM What would be interesting (to me at least) would be to see a diagram of a typical water system within a 'van (similar to a wiring diagram for instance). Does anyone know of a simplified version anywhere? Hi Brian, Have a look at page 41 of the Whale RV brochure for a simplified diagram... Link. Plus there is a lot of other useful info in there. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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