Thurlestone Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 I am looking at installing refillable gas bottles for when I am travelling abroad and wondered if anyone had purchased and used either Gaslow or a new cylinder called Safefill. I like the lightweight alternative of this system and have priced it up against fitting a Gaslow system that would take a long time to regain the initial investment. The Safefill does look a good alternative but I have not seen any magazine or forum items report on this system. On its website it states that many garage forecourts don't allow filling cylinders but if kept and filled in situ has anyone had any problems with refusal on forecourts. Any advise would really be welcomed. Thurlestone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 This is a list of earlier forum postings that include a "Safefill" reference: http://tinyurl.com/bpk3d4f A GOOGLE search on Safefill will also be productive. If you want a brief Safefill-related summary, try this thread: http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Safefill-Bottles/26301/?posts=13 Within that thread I mention that the Safefill bottle (that is primarily aimed at UK caravanners) has potential safety problems when being refilled abroad in countries that do not use the UK-norm 'bayonet' connector for autogas pump-guns. I note that, on the current Safefill website, a pair of (expensive!) Continental filling adapters is being offered. The photos show what appear to be ordinary adapters as used when refilling a vehicle's autogas tank. This raises the question of how the adapters are attached to a Safefill bottle's outlet-valve that was originally designed to accept a UK-standard POL (propane) connector (see 1st entry on Safefill website's FAQ section). Unless Safefill has modified their original outlet-valve design (and there's nothing on the website to indicate they have), if you need to refill a Safefill bottle in, say, France, you'll need an adapter with a POL connection at one end that can be screwed into the bottle's outlet-valve (and doing this will override the bottle's safety non-return valve), with the other end threaded to accept the Continental adapter. An example of such an adapter is here: http://www.autogasshop.co.uk/safe-fill--american-rv-gas-bottle-filler-adapter-709-p.asp It's possible that Safefill have altered their original outlet-valve design by now, so that it will directly accept a POL connector or a Continental adapter. As you intend to travel abroad, you'd be wise to ask about this as, by the time you've added the cost of an intermediate adapter and Continental adapters to the price of the Safefill bottle itself, you'll be looking at close to £200. I'm not aware that any Out&AboutLive forum member uses a Safefill bottle, but many have refillable LPG systems with metal bottles. Everybody with a metal-bottle system seems to be very pleased with it. There are alternatives to Gaslow. For example: http://www.gasit.co.uk/index.php?_a=category&cat_id=26 http://www.autogasshop.co.uk/refillable-bottles-20-c.asp My advice would be to forget the Safefill bottle and opt instead for a metal refillable-bottle that can be refilled without removing the bottle from the motorhome. How the latter is achieved would be up to you and alternatives are shown in this Gaslow file. http://www.gaslow.co.uk/pdf/Filling-Instructions-2012.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeBR Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 As I understand it,the problem with ALL refillable bottle systems is where you have the filler cap. Ideally it should be on the coachwork and not in the gas locker-it has been known for forecourt attendants to refuse gas if they see you open the gas locker-they assume that you intend to fill bottles on the forecourt.They don't care what system you have and how safe it is. Another problem you can encounter (very rarely) is that LGP or GPL is sold on forecourts for propulsion and not for 'domestic' use (different VAT rates).Hence I get my gas first and diesel second-once it's in the tank they can't do much :-D I have a 40ltr underslung tank-that gives me extra storage sace where the 2 13k bottles used to go. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerC Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 We have the gaslow system fitted and can say it is brilliant. Yes it's expensive to begin with but it can either be transferred to another MH or sold as an optional extra (or include in the price if the MH goes 'as is') so recouping the outlay is made easier. Regarding the running costs. You get a contract form to fill out for 'Countrywide' and filling there is cheap as chips. Compare the cost of a refil at Countrywide to replacing calor bottles and you'll soon realise the Gaslow system really isn't that expensive.With Gaslow we also received all the necessary european adaptors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 MikeBR - 2013-02-13 5:53 PM As I understand it,the problem with ALL refillable bottle systems is where you have the filler cap. Ideally it should be on the coachwork and not in the gas locker-it has been known for forecourt attendants to refuse gas if they see you open the gas locker-they assume that you intend to fill bottles on the forecourt.They don't care what system you have and how safe it is. Another problem you can encounter (very rarely) is that LGP or GPL is sold on forecourts for propulsion and not for 'domestic' use (different VAT rates).Hence I get my gas first and diesel second-once it's in the tank they can't do much :-D I have a 40ltr underslung tank-that gives me extra storage sace where the 2 13k bottles used to go. Mike This is the most recent relevant UKLPG User Information Sheet: http://www.uklpg.org/uploads/DOC4E7749E87E660.pdf You'll note that the position of the filling-point on the vehicle is not mentioned. The advice is that an LPG bottle should be "connected to a fixed filling connector which is not part of the container". (This rules out the Safefill container that has its filling-point integrated into the bottle's outlet-valve.) When user-refillable LPG containers began to be aggressively marketed in the UK (by Gaslow primarily) a good few years ago, there was considerable resistance to the practice from LPG suppliers (particularly Calor) based on safety concerns. Service-stations selling LPG were advised to refuse to fill this type of container and, if it was apparent that vehicle drivers intended to fill such bottles, to forbid them from doing so. To combat this, Gaslow used to advise (and still does) that the LPG filling-point be remote from the locker in which the LPG bottles are stored so that service-station attendants will be unaware of what's being done. Although this is still the least controversial installation practice (as you say, the "ideal" installation method), the UKLPG is evidently not concerned about it. Although there were initially quite a few reports from motorcaravanners who were prevented from filling their gas-bottles at service-stations (or, unsurprisingly, when the service-station attendant refused to assist in the refilling), I don't recall reading anything recently about this. Needing to open the gas-locker door to refill bottles certainly may lead to a service-station attendant thinking that an 'illegal' bottle (a Calor exchange-only canister, say) is being refilled, but, if a motorcaravanner chooses to have the filler-point within the locker (and many do) that's a risk that will need to be accepted. Opening the gas-locker door is one thing, but the refilling practice shown on the Safefill Dutch website http://www.safefill.nl/onze-veilige-lpg-flesse/ just invites a confrontation with a service-station attendant. Use of refillable LPG bottles was virtually unknown for French motorcaravanners until recently, but, when such containers began to be marketed in France, there was serious argument over whether using a vehicle fuel for a leisure-vehicle's 'domestic' appliances was legal. As motorcaravanners still have no difficulties filling their bottles with "GPL" in France, I presume the argument was rejected or ignored. As far as I'm aware no UK service-station sells 'autogas' for other than vehicle fuel and that fuel will (currently) attract VAT at 20%. So, if you fill your motorhome's bottles (or tank) with autogas from a UK service-station, I can't see what relevance the VAT rate will have as you won't be able to avoid the vehicle fuel 20% VAT rate. If you have an account with an autogas supplier (eg. Countrywide) and you tell the supplier you will not be using the LPG as vehicle fuel, you may be able to purchase the LPG with the UK 'domestic' 5% VAT rate applied. But I've never heard of anyone obtaining autogas from a service-station to fuel their motorhome's domestic gas appliances and managing to buy the LPG with 5% VAT added rather than 20%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 Derek Uzzell - 2013-02-14 9:15 AM .... but the refilling practice shown on the Safefill Dutch website http://www.safefill.nl/onze-veilige-lpg-flesse/ just invites a confrontation with a service-station attendant. . Blimey! 8-) ..I see what you mean Derek. ..Shorts,sandles,no sleeves and no gloves...all whilst wrestling with a loose bottle and an LPG hose.... It's not showcasing a very good example,is it... :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 I notice that the Safefill bottle has been discussed on a Dutch motorhome website. Received wisdom seems to be that refilling a Safefill bottle at a Dutch service-station breaches Dutch LPG-related regulations due to the design of the bottle. Holland uses the same 'Dutch bayonet' connector for autogas pump-guns as the UK and (based on the Dutch forum comments) Dutch on-bottle propane regulators have the same POL connector as ours. This means that a Safefill bottle can be marketed in the UK or Holland with no modifications to the bottle's design being needed. Although the Dutch Safefill website advertises adapters for refilling the bottle outside Holland, I still don't understand how these can be attached directly to the bottle's outlet-valve. The Safefill bottle is made by the Swedish company "Composite Scandinavia". It's their "Passion" container http://www.compositescandinavia.se/sites/default/files/media/eng_folder_passion.pdf with a revised outlet-valve that makes it more suitable for user-refilling. Other 'see-through' bottles from this firm are the "Calypso" and "Viseo" bottles marketed for domestic use in France. Composite Scandinavia is now owned by the Norwegian company Ragasco who produce the BP Gas Light bottles http://www.ragasco.com/lpg-products/technical-specifications/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurlestone Posted February 16, 2013 Author Share Posted February 16, 2013 Thanks everyone for your information and thoughts. I have decided not to go ahead with the Safefill and am now seeking an alternative. I have seen an advert on ebay for a Stacko / GAS-IT bottle but can't find any information about Stacko on the net and want to ensure it is worth buying. . I think this would be good but if not I will look at a Gaslow that I can get for £114 + the filling kit at about £48. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 Thurlestone - 2013-02-16 4:57 PM I have seen an advert on ebay for a Stacko / GAS-IT bottle but can't find any information about Stacko on the net and want to ensure it is worth buying. David, They are STAKO and not Stacko, probably why you can't find any info. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 Thurlestone - 2013-02-16 4:57 PM Thanks everyone for your information and thoughts. I have decided not to go ahead with the Safefill and am now seeking an alternative. I have seen an advert on ebay for a Stacko / GAS-IT bottle but can't find any information about Stacko on the net and want to ensure it is worth buying. . I think this would be good but if not I will look at a Gaslow that I can get for £114 + the filling kit at about £48. Presumably this is the e-bay advert http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GASLOW-GAS-IT-STAKO-REFILLABLE-BOTTLE-/121063598385 The STAKO factory is based in Poland. http://www.stako.pl/index.php?id=profil&lang=en I believe STAKO bottles were the first refillable canisters to be marketed in the UK for leisure-vehicle use. They are '4-hole' bottles, built to a high specification, with a well-engineered mechanical contents-level gauge. Consequently, they were never cheap. GAS-IT used to market STAKO bottles, but I not sure if they still do. The company now offers its own-branded range of 4-hole refillable canisters, but I don't know who makes them. The GAS-IT equivalent to the bottles on e-bay is this one: http://www.gasit.co.uk/index.php?_a=product&product_id=74 If you wanted to save weight, you might consider an ALUGAS cylinder http://www.autogasshop.co.uk/alugas-lightweight-refillable-lpg-cylinder-with-gauge-3-hole-405-p.asp (STAKO bottles were normally red, so the bottles on e-bay may be pretty old and been repainted to disguise rusting.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurlestone Posted February 17, 2013 Author Share Posted February 17, 2013 I am new to motorhoming and bought our van in August last year after gaining a lot of useful knowledge from members of the forum that helped to decide on the van. We are really indebted to everyone who shares their knowledge and hope we can offer assistance as we have toured with a caravan for forty years. After considering the situation have decided with the advise received to go for a Gaslow bottle from Hamilton's and then at least we know it is new and will last us through our dotage. Thanks again everyone, David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timndelia Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 We had Gaslow refillables on our previous 'van with an external filler. We've fitted German Alugas refillables to our new 'van (a year old) as they are much lighter than the Gaslow, but had to have the filler inside the gas locker. Not had any problems filling up anywhere. We bought the cylinders and kit through the Alugas website. Very pleased with the set up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneDLR Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 hi folks we use safefill on our company caravan. its brilliant, never had any problems filling at shell or jet garages. highly recommended for the price Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 The Safefill bottle is advertised at £149.99 (plus at least £14 carriage charges) whereas a 'direct fill' Gaslow 11kg bottle (carriage inclusive) is available at £156, with the 6kg version at £141. As I said earlier, by the time you've added the cost of the intermediate adapter necessary for refilling a Safefill bottle in countries that don't use the UK's Dutch bayonet autogas pump-gun connector, you'll be looking at £200. I note too that there are recent-ish on-line reports by owners of Safefill containers saying they have been prevented from refilling their bottles at some autogas-supplying outlets. This may also be worth reading: http://www.gasit.co.uk/index.php?_a=product&product_id=102 The Calor link on that webpage doesn't seem to work, but this one does... http://tinyurl.com/cq28ex9 ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 An update on the Safefill bottle... Safefill have told me that the two Continental filling adapters shown on their website http://www.safefill.co.uk/continental-filling-adaptor.html are specific to Safefill bottles (hence the price of the adapters) and can be screwed directly into a Safefill bottle's LH-threaded POL inlet/outlet valve. A prototype adapter has also been produced to handle refilling Safefill botteles in Spain at autogas service-stations that have pump-guns with the "Euro Nozzle" connector. It has yet to be decided whether this adapter will be marketed, as the projected number of sales is imited and the cost of the adapter would be high. As I've said previously, it would be possible to use this type of adapter-set with a Safefill bottle http://tinyurl.com/d5qq4k9 and thus be able to refill the container anywhere in Europe, but that would add £80 to the bottle's basic price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 Thurlestone - 2013-02-16 4:57 PM Thanks everyone for your information and thoughts. I have decided not to go ahead with the Safefill and am now seeking an alternative. I have seen an advert on ebay for a Stacko / GAS-IT bottle but can't find any information about Stacko on the net and want to ensure it is worth buying. . I think this would be good but if not I will look at a Gaslow that I can get for £114 + the filling kit at about £48. Stako are widely used in mainland Europe the big advantage over Gaslow is they have accurate level gauges that measure the full contents of the bottle. Myself and several other members of the forum have them and I think everyone is pleased with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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