help with engine management light problem

[tonyishuk]

Further to Brambles reply regarding connections

 

Our previous Fiat had to have the dashboard out and every connector checked and or re crimped.

 

Fine after that, absolute bu@@er before.

 

Rgds

[rupert123]

Tracker - 2013-02-24 6:33 PM

 

Dave Newell - 2013-02-24 6:09 PM

personally I never got past mechanic grade.

 

D.

 

Now that I can understand given your own inability to respond to anything you disagree with without antagonism.

Let me just remind you that it was you that chose to start this spat and bring up whatever history you felt would strengthen your own lack of justification for not replying objectively and with courtesy.

I was not rude to you to start with so why did you feel the need to be rude to me?

Are you unable to put your own point of view without feeling the need to be aggressive, which in turn leads to an aggressive response where none would otherwise be?

I don't ever show any hostility to you if I initially disagree with what you post so why should you?

 

Actually Rich it was not, you did by your remarks about garages, if i had a garage still I to would take exception to them. What is wrong with Dick, surely a common abreviation of your name. Their are many good garages 'out their' including main dealers. The modern electronics in a vehicle these days make the whole thing much more complicated as do some sensors which ofter record several possible problems. The old 'back street garage' often cannot deal with them unless they have a computor and are willing to pay a pretty large sum to have the analyse program updated on a regular basis.

[Tracker]

Fair comment those who have commented.

 

I accept that I may have over reacted to Dave's posting and I apologise to him for this.

 

Notwithstanding his views many of us do share a similarly low regard for many main dealers and whilst I also use a local family owned and run independent garage for servicing etc they do not always have the diagnostics, code readers or interpreters and tools needed for some of the complex fault finding which, according to them, is due in no small part to the reluctance of manufacturers to impart such info. That said, they are very experienced with both cars and commercials and usually get to the bottom of any problem and I do have faith and trust in their ability and integrity.

[Champstar]

After 70 miles of driving on motorway the problem has returned..the diagnostic has shown another 5 codes...now garage thinks it maybe an electrical or wiring problem...so have to see what comes up

[silverback]

Brambles - 2013-02-25 9:30 PM

 

That is a lot of sensors showing a fault which may indicate an earthing or voltage problem. I would check the main earth lead connection to the engine block from the chassis as well as a precaution as may have corrosion and high resistance.

 

 

 

 

note this post by Brambles

jonathan

[Champstar]

I did note this and another possible on another forum suggest the wire from the pedal to the position sensor in the engine bay....will keep everyone updated.

 

This is what I like about forums where people you have never met will genuinely try and help by posting their knowledge and experiences.

[Dave Newell]

Tracker - 2013-02-26 10:37 AM

 

Fair comment those who have commented.

 

I accept that I may have over reacted to Dave's posting and I apologise to him for this.

 

Notwithstanding his views many of us do share a similarly low regard for many main dealers and whilst I also use a local family owned and run independent garage for servicing etc they do not always have the diagnostics, code readers or interpreters and tools needed for some of the complex fault finding which, according to them, is due in no small part to the reluctance of manufacturers to impart such info. That said, they are very experienced with both cars and commercials and usually get to the bottom of any problem and I do have faith and trust in their ability and integrity.

 

Fair enough Richard, apology accepted.

 

D.

[Guest peter]

You now have to appologise to dick, Dave. :D

[euroserv]

Hi Champstar,

 

I have been reading this thread and keeping out of the arguments and speculation about this problem because though we run a lot of Fiats, your 2.2 engine is not one that we have much to do with.

 

However, having looked under the bonnet of one today I can't see why yours will not be affected by the same problem that many of ours are.

 

On our 2.3 and 3.0 Fiats we have had vans failing to start, mysterious instrument readings,and multiple warning lights (including alternator failure) that have always been resolved by the fitting of an additional earth strap between the chassis and gearbox end cover. It is a fix that has been sanctioned by Fiat for dealers during the warranty period and is a standard operation thereafter for strange electrical issues.

 

If you have a variety of warning lights or fault codes that would be my first port of call.

 

The reason for the problem is that the vehicle ECU depends on the earth that is nearest to it and if there is any interruption or degradation to this earth, any signals generated by devices around the engine will be 'less than expected' and therefore deemed to be a problem. All that the ECU can do is report each of these faults and take action where possible to avoid any damage or prevent safety systems from being compromised.

 

Now, don't get me wrong; there are a number of other possible causes of your problem but since this is the easiest, most common and cheapest remedy to act upon, you really should consider it first.

 

Good luck and let us know how you get on.

 

Nick

[Tracker]

Interesting point Nick - would/could an earth fault cause the engine to go into limp home mode do you know?

[bolero boy]

'All that the ECU can do is report each of these faults and take action where possible to avoid any damage or prevent safety systems from being compromised.'

 

Rich, looks like Nick is suggesting that the ECU will follow through on error codes detected and do, in effect, it's job - react accordingly which, in some cases, might be to restrict the engine to limp-home mode even thought the errors detected might be generated incorrectly.

 

 

[Tracker]

bolero boy - 2013-02-26 5:50 PM

 

'All that the ECU can do is report each of these faults and take action where possible to avoid any damage or prevent safety systems from being compromised.'

 

Rich, looks like Nick is suggesting that the ECU will follow through on error codes detected and do, in effect, it's job - react accordingly which, in some cases, might be to restrict the engine to limp-home mode even thought the errors detected might be generated incorrectly.

 

 

Which is why I asked!!

 

No faults on mine - yet - but I might well consider fitting a 2nd earth strap?

[colin]

Well it seems I'm not the only one who has had poor service from Fiat dealer then. When you plug in the diagnostics and get a whole load of faults randomly replacing components is the sign for poorly trained personnel.

[rupert123]

Tracker - 2013-02-26 10:37 AM

 

Fair comment those who have commented.

 

I accept that I may have over reacted to Dave's posting and I apologise to him for this.

 

Notwithstanding his views many of us do share a similarly low regard for many main dealers and whilst I also use a local family owned and run independent garage for servicing etc they do not always have the diagnostics, code readers or interpreters and tools needed for some of the complex fault finding which, according to them, is due in no small part to the reluctance of manufacturers to impart such info. That said, they are very experienced with both cars and commercials and usually get to the bottom of any problem and I do have faith and trust in their ability and integrity.

Rich your garage is talking b*****ks in their 'manufacturors will not impart information' excuse. Other companies will supply all the information they need to sort out diagnostics and codes, Snap On tools was one but as i said before it costs for the constant updates. I to use a small local garage, very small in fact, but they can read codes and sort them out.

[Tracker]

I didn't say will not Henry, I said reluctant, as in sometimes making it difficult and expensive and being slow to release updates or revisions.

 

The garage have never used that as a reason or excuse, more as just another cross they have to bear along with VOSA the local authority etc etc and it came out in general conversation.

 

 

[Guest peter]

You can buy a code reader on fleabay for less than £30.00 plus a laptop and away you go. All the codes are freely available on the web for print out and all modern cars use the same OBD2 codes.

[Wooie]

I have this one and it`s very good :-

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MaxScan-GS500-/160973978906?pt=UK_Diagnostic_Tools_Equipment&hash=item257acbfd1a

 

Not sure if all the cables /discs are included with this one :-

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/MAXSCAN-GS500-READER-SCANNER-Vehicles/dp/B001MOD5UU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1361947888&sr=8-1

[Champstar]

euroserv - 2013-02-26 4:54 PM

 

Hi Champstar,

 

I have been reading this thread and keeping out of the arguments and speculation about this problem because though we run a lot of Fiats, your 2.2 engine is not one that we have much to do with.

 

However, having looked under the bonnet of one today I can't see why yours will not be affected by the same problem that many of ours are.

 

On our 2.3 and 3.0 Fiats we have had vans failing to start, mysterious instrument readings,and multiple warning lights (including alternator failure) that have always been resolved by the fitting of an additional earth strap between the chassis and gearbox end cover. It is a fix that has been sanctioned by Fiat for dealers during the warranty period and is a standard operation thereafter for strange electrical issues.

 

If you have a variety of warning lights or fault codes that would be my first port of call.

 

The reason for the problem is that the vehicle ECU depends on the earth that is nearest to it and if there is any interruption or degradation to this earth, any signals generated by devices around the engine will be 'less than expected' and therefore deemed to be a problem. All that the ECU can do is report each of these faults and take action where possible to avoid any damage or prevent safety systems from being compromised.

 

Now, don't get me wrong; there are a number of other possible causes of your problem but since this is the easiest, most common and cheapest remedy to act upon, you really should consider it first.

 

Good luck and let us know how you get on.

 

Nick

 

Thanks Nick

I probably should have said that my van is a 2006 model..do you think the same potentional fix will apply?

 

[euroserv]

Champstar - 2013-02-27 10:27 AM

 

euroserv - 2013-02-26 4:54 PM

 

Hi Champstar,

 

I have been reading this thread and keeping out of the arguments and speculation about this problem because though we run a lot of Fiats, your 2.2 engine is not one that we have much to do with.

 

However, having looked under the bonnet of one today I can't see why yours will not be affected by the same problem that many of ours are.

 

On our 2.3 and 3.0 Fiats we have had vans failing to start, mysterious instrument readings,and multiple warning lights (including alternator failure) that have always been resolved by the fitting of an additional earth strap between the chassis and gearbox end cover. It is a fix that has been sanctioned by Fiat for dealers during the warranty period and is a standard operation thereafter for strange electrical issues.

 

If you have a variety of warning lights or fault codes that would be my first port of call.

 

The reason for the problem is that the vehicle ECU depends on the earth that is nearest to it and if there is any interruption or degradation to this earth, any signals generated by devices around the engine will be 'less than expected' and therefore deemed to be a problem. All that the ECU can do is report each of these faults and take action where possible to avoid any damage or prevent safety systems from being compromised.

 

Now, don't get me wrong; there are a number of other possible causes of your problem but since this is the easiest, most common and cheapest remedy to act upon, you really should consider it first.

 

Good luck and let us know how you get on.

 

Nick

 

Thanks Nick

I probably should have said that my van is a 2006 model..do you think the same potentional fix will apply?

 

Not really, no. This has been an exclusively X250 issue. Anyone that has an X250 should get the additional earth strap done; this means you Rich! You will need one eventually and it can happen at 1 year old or 3.

 

Yours is most likely the accelerator pedal. Seen that a few times on 2002 to 2006 vans.

 

Nick.

[euroserv]

peter - 2013-02-25 3:36 PM

 

I'd clear all the faults and drive it. Then re-connect the code reader and see what comes up, as some of those codes may be uncleared old ones that have been fixed, as they are stored in memory until cleared.

 

This is an important point and one I would like to expand on.....

 

The manufacturer's have to fit a common type of port called OBD or OBD2 in order that MOT testers and the 'Authorities' may check that the engine is operating correctly as regards emissions. Emissions only.

The 'engine management light' illuminates to warn that something that could potentially affect the emissions of the vehicle is malfunctioning.

 

The manufacturers only have to allow access to the vehicle ECU for the purposes of checking and diagnosing the above; they are not obliged to provide access to anything else. Some do, and some provide limited access.

 

Most cheap code readers can only extract and delete trouble codes that relate to emissions and can give clues as to why an engine management light could be on. This is sometimes enough.

 

In order to diagnose something more involved you need to see beyond this basic information and you need a more sophisticated tool that can monitor data from the vehicle while it is running or attempting to run. These machines are very expensive and have differing levels of access depending on the software that they have.

 

If you imagine entering a three storey house at the front door; your 'key' is the cable that connects your machine to the diagnostic socket. You use your 'key' to get through the door and with a basic code reader you will be given a plan of the ground floor and a list of devices that have reported problems on that floor. You can delete them if you wish but if the problem is not fixed, it will come back again most of the time.

 

If you have a more sophisticated tool you will be able to see all of this and a detailed plan of the next floor up along with the ability to remotely turn things like water taps on and off, heaters and lights too. You can monitor what is switched on, and how much electricity it is consuming compared to what it should be using at that time. You can normally also look at other systems besides the engine like ABS, air-bags and other electrical systems. You can delete more serious codes but that is where it ends for you.

 

The dealer alone will have a specific tool for that house that can access the top floor where parameters can be adjusted, accessories switched on and off permanently and codes can be programmed in and learned for new keys and locks. They (the manufacturer) is perfectly entitled to restrict access to these upper floors or features.

 

The above is a messy analogy but I think it is a fair description.

 

There are services available from the likes of Snap-On, Auto-data and Bosch that will provide more detailed information regarding wiring diagrams, measurements, tightening torque settings and job times plus some hints where there are common known faults but these services are paid for by subscription, are not exhaustive and sometimes contain errors. Diagnostic tools are updated with new models periodically and sometimes access is gained to new features and this will upgrade the functionality of the system but it will never be as exhaustive as the manufacturer's own diagnostic tools.

 

You have to be pretty intelligent to operate and interpret the more advanced tools. It is easy to see a fault and try to replace a part and not consider that the device was flagging a fault because of something further up-stream not working properly. You have to be methodical and treat the data you can see as a clue rather than an answer.

 

We have been working on a vehicle for some time now that despite the best efforts of ourselves, a main dealer and a fuel injection specialist is baffling us all. The data we get from it is confusing and ultimately it will probably be that there are several faults concurrently and there may be no choice but to fix them all!

 

Diagnostics is not easy; unless you know exactly what the problem is because you have seen it many times before!

 

Essay over. Hope it helps.

 

Nick

[Geoff Cole]

Hi Champstar,

My Fiat camper is a 2.2 2007 model and has been plagued by electrical problems from new.

Nick is spot on, bad earths are causing all sorts of problems its taken me 3 years and £1000 of unnecessary repairs to sort the problem. I had the engine management light coming on as well as the Fiat immobilizer warning light activating preventing starting along with instrument failure rough running and the pouring out of copious amounts of black soot,

The EGR valve was replaced in France at a Fiat dealer who was convinced this was faulty, I inspected the old one and could not see a problem with it. they replaced the MAS with no avail.

I discussed these problems with a colleague who runs a local garage and services my vehicles. we discuss difficult electrical problems which he comes across on vehicles from time to time as my own back round is electrical engineering.

I had come back from France with the camper running rough, I had again been to a Fiat service and a Bosch diagnostic Centre to have the problem fixed. After a few miles it was no better.

We decided that the only way to get to the bottom of this problem was to go back to basics, we were both well aware of the problems caused by bad earthing from the ECU, we traced all the earths cleaned all the services and remade the connections, I also bonded all the earths together with a 8mm cable between points and re-making the engine earths. We plugged in the diagnostic computer and cleared the shed load of faults that were showing, then took the camper for a run, it seemed to run better with no spurious electrical faults. I took the camper home, and as I was due to go back to France within the next few weeks I decided to give it a good run over the mountain road and round the TT course, no electrical problems, but it was starting to belch out black soot again and running rough grrrrr.

I returned to the garage there was a lot of head scratching we hooked the camper up on the diagnostics, no fault codes were present so with the computer on my colleagues lap in the passenger seat we drove the camper up and down the road checking the diagnostic readings all appeared ok the only thing that was suspect was the EGR valve was remaining 30% open on acceleration it should of course be shut. We stopped and unplugged it, then went off again, problem solved engine running perfectly. we had been out for 3hrs testing everything.

The fault would appear to be in the ECU as it does not appear to know that it is unplugged.

I have left it disconnected, the engine is running better than ever far smoother with greatly improved fuel consumption. I have been back to France and clocked up over 3000mls without any further problems.

I can send the ECU off to a specialist to have this fault repaired, but as there is no longer a problem I am not in a rush, and in either case |I prefer not having all the crap from the exhaust going into a nice clean inlet manifold!

 

The EGR valve on the 2.2 is operated by a motor rather than vacuum, it might be worth while unplugging to see if it helps your problem, nothing to loose by trying it.

 

Regards Geoff

[Tracker]

Many thanks Nick for that clarification.

 

It is much as my local garage said, multi layered and with makers unenthusiastic about allowing non franchised garages access to the upper layers, and even franchised dealers struggling to understand it all.

 

Real confidence inspiring stuff!!

 

Are there recommended earthing points for a supplementary strap please or will any accessible clean and paint free engine and chassis bolt locations suffice please as I have plenty of spare starter cable and I can fit one before we leave Saturday?

 

Many thanks.

[euroserv]

Tracker - 2013-02-27 3:02 PM

 

Many thanks Nick for that clarification.

 

It is much as my local garage said, multi layered and with makers unenthusiastic about allowing non franchised garages access to the upper layers, and even franchised dealers struggling to understand it all.

 

Real confidence inspiring stuff!!

 

Are there recommended earthing points for a supplementary strap please or will any accessible clean and paint free engine and chassis bolt locations suffice please as I have plenty of spare starter cable and I can fit one before we leave Saturday?

 

Many thanks.

 

Rich,

 

The Fiat recommendation and our normal practice is to fit the second earth between the original point on the chassis out rigger and remove a screw from the gearbox end cover and fix it there. Leave the original braided earth where it is. Two is better than one!

 

In my honest opinion the practice of expecting an aluminium casting to provide a good earth is stupid at best but this is how every manufacturer does it! The Sevel vans have a braided steel earth strap which is prone to corrosion and breaks down over time. A nice thick length of welding cable (think industrial sized jump lead) with proper crimped and soldered tags on the end will do nicely.

 

Enjoy your trip.

 

Nick

[sshortcircuit]

Really finding this topic interesting and as I have a similar problem with my 2.8jtd. If I add additional earths I would ask if they need to be "welding cable" size as it appears that it is signalling faults creating the problems and these will not? be high currents.

[euroserv]

sshortcircuit - 2013-02-27 4:23 PM

 

Really finding this topic interesting and as I have a similar problem with my 2.8jtd. If I add additional earths I would ask if they need to be "welding cable" size as it appears that it is signalling faults creating the problems and these will not? be high currents.

 

You would have to disclose the nature of your problems for me to have any ideas about your vehicle. The 2.8JTD was not in the same league for earth problems, but it had some of it's own. As a rule though; you can't have too much earth!

 

Nick