Champstar Posted February 27, 2013 Author Share Posted February 27, 2013 euroserv - 2013-02-27 12:33 PM Champstar - 2013-02-27 10:27 AM euroserv - 2013-02-26 4:54 PM Hi Champstar, I have been reading this thread and keeping out of the arguments and speculation about this problem because though we run a lot of Fiats, your 2.2 engine is not one that we have much to do with. However, having looked under the bonnet of one today I can't see why yours will not be affected by the same problem that many of ours are. On our 2.3 and 3.0 Fiats we have had vans failing to start, mysterious instrument readings,and multiple warning lights (including alternator failure) that have always been resolved by the fitting of an additional earth strap between the chassis and gearbox end cover. It is a fix that has been sanctioned by Fiat for dealers during the warranty period and is a standard operation thereafter for strange electrical issues. If you have a variety of warning lights or fault codes that would be my first port of call. The reason for the problem is that the vehicle ECU depends on the earth that is nearest to it and if there is any interruption or degradation to this earth, any signals generated by devices around the engine will be 'less than expected' and therefore deemed to be a problem. All that the ECU can do is report each of these faults and take action where possible to avoid any damage or prevent safety systems from being compromised. Now, don't get me wrong; there are a number of other possible causes of your problem but since this is the easiest, most common and cheapest remedy to act upon, you really should consider it first. Good luck and let us know how you get on. Nick Thanks Nick I probably should have said that my van is a 2006 model..do you think the same potentional fix will apply? Not really, no. This has been an exclusively X250 issue. Anyone that has an X250 should get the additional earth strap done; this means you Rich! You will need one eventually and it can happen at 1 year old or 3. Yours is most likely the accelerator pedal. Seen that a few times on 2002 to 2006 vans. Nick. I think you might be right Nick as after all the elctrics had been checked and reconnected took the van out for a run and the eml light flashed 4 times and just as I was heading back to the garage it stayed on...so at least on the positive side it is not the connections but a component that is dodgy. will have to wait on garage now but will probably be tomorrow now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 euroserv - 2013-02-27 3:48 PM Tracker - 2013-02-27 3:02 PM Many thanks Nick for that clarification. It is much as my local garage said, multi layered and with makers unenthusiastic about allowing non franchised garages access to the upper layers, and even franchised dealers struggling to understand it all. Real confidence inspiring stuff!! Are there recommended earthing points for a supplementary strap please or will any accessible clean and paint free engine and chassis bolt locations suffice please as I have plenty of spare starter cable and I can fit one before we leave Saturday? Many thanks. Rich, The Fiat recommendation and our normal practice is to fit the second earth between the original point on the chassis out rigger and remove a screw from the gearbox end cover and fix it there. Leave the original braided earth where it is. Two is better than one! In my honest opinion the practice of expecting an aluminium casting to provide a good earth is stupid at best but this is how every manufacturer does it! The Sevel vans have a braided steel earth strap which is prone to corrosion and breaks down over time. A nice thick length of welding cable (think industrial sized jump lead) with proper crimped and soldered tags on the end will do nicely. Enjoy your trip. Nick Many thanks Nick - sorry for the delay as I had to take the dog walkies, but job done! Had some heavy duty starter cable with crimped and soldered terminals left over from a boat refit years ago - knew it would come in handy one day - and I ran one from the chassis to the gearbox and a second on from that to the top of the engine. Not too demanding a job if anyone asks, just a bit fiddly to get at the chassis earth bolt! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 Champstar, What you can do is get the garage to connect a diagnostic tool that can give 'live' readings connected to it and select 'accelerator track one' and 'accelerator track two'. These are as the name implies two resistive tracks that act as a pair of potentiometers above the throttle pedal. The resistance value from these two tracks is used by the ECU to calculate the throttle opening that is desired. If one of the values is too high or too low the ECU will be confused and will provide an averaged-out value so that you can continue with your journey. The way to check it's operation is simple enough. You need to watch the values as you press the pedal very slowly (Ignition on but with the engine NOT running) and you will see the values go from 0 to 100%. This should happen in a linear fashion through the pedal travel. If the value jumps suddenly or does anything other than move steadily as the pedal is pressed or released this would indicate that either the pedal assembly is faulty or the throttle position sensor (at the other end) is defective. It is almost always the pedal at fault on Fiat engines and I expect it to be the same on Peugeot engines. It is definitely worth having the under bonnet fuse box checked. There are contacts in the connecting plugs underneath that have been known to 'fur-up' and corrode. This could also be the cause of the problem, and has been a couple of times. I am pretty confident that your problem will be one or the other of these, and even if not, they are simple and cheap items to check. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sshortcircuit Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 I did not wish to highjack the OP, however I have a 2005 2.8jtd kontiki which has a similar problem. Last year if France on a long climb in a lower gear and not over reving the engine, the engine management light illuminated and the engine just slowed down. I switched Off/On and this reset the unit . I can simulate this locally. In addition the "water in fuel" light illuminates intermittently but there are no effects and it will clear. Coming up for MOT and service and any info would help. Edit Fiat engine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 sshortcircuit - 2013-02-27 6:50 PM I did not wish to highjack the OP, however I have a 2005 2.8jtd kontiki which has a similar problem. Last year if France on a long climb in a lower gear and not over reving the engine, the engine management light illuminated and the engine just slowed down. I switched Off/On and this reset the unit . I can simulate this locally. In addition the "water in fuel" light illuminates intermittently but there are no effects and it will clear. Coming up for MOT and service and any info would help. Edit Fiat engine OK; My guess is that you have the older type silver cylinder type fuel filter. The water in fuel sensor is below the fuel filter and is screwed in. It is only slightly possible that the sensor is faulty because when they pack up, they just pack up. What you probably have is some water in there! Disconnect the electric cable to prevent it from getting all twisted up and unscrew the sensor. Fuel will drop out of the hole from whence the sensor was and you might want to try to catch it or face a clean up afterwards. Once you have drained about half of the canister, screw the sensor back in. Done. Connect the electric cable back up and away you go. If you have the later type of black plastic filter housing it is possible that the sensor is playing up and these are more messy to work on so I recommend a garage for that. The engine management light while climbing is a bit more speculative but unless you have the 146hp 'Power' engine which is known for getting incredibly hot while climbing, the most likely culprit would be the air mass meter. I don't think it is faulty, but seriously confused by the relatively sudden change in the density of the air passing it, and the ECU will probably wish to reduce the power available to protect it from over-heating. If the air density and rate of flow is reduced, the fuel flow has to be reduced also hence; limited power. I doubt that either issue is much to be concerned about and I doubt that Fiat campers were intended to climb mountains; I know the van versions were not! Hope this puts your mind at rest. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champstar Posted February 28, 2013 Author Share Posted February 28, 2013 euroserv - 2013-02-27 6:05 PM Champstar, What you can do is get the garage to connect a diagnostic tool that can give 'live' readings connected to it and select 'accelerator track one' and 'accelerator track two'. These are as the name implies two resistive tracks that act as a pair of potentiometers above the throttle pedal. The resistance value from these two tracks is used by the ECU to calculate the throttle opening that is desired. If one of the values is too high or too low the ECU will be confused and will provide an averaged-out value so that you can continue with your journey. The way to check it's operation is simple enough. You need to watch the values as you press the pedal very slowly (Ignition on but with the engine NOT running) and you will see the values go from 0 to 100%. This should happen in a linear fashion through the pedal travel. If the value jumps suddenly or does anything other than move steadily as the pedal is pressed or released this would indicate that either the pedal assembly is faulty or the throttle position sensor (at the other end) is defective. It is almost always the pedal at fault on Fiat engines and I expect it to be the same on Peugeot engines. It is definitely worth having the under bonnet fuse box checked. There are contacts in the connecting plugs underneath that have been known to 'fur-up' and corrode. This could also be the cause of the problem, and has been a couple of times. I am pretty confident that your problem will be one or the other of these, and even if not, they are simple and cheap items to check. Nick Thanks again Nick Garage thought they had found a corroded connection and cleaned them all up. Took van for a run this morning and with the cc set at around 55mph all was well until a steep downward hill.. a shudder and then the eml light on. The cc seems to bring the problem on but is not limited to that as afterwards the eml light comes on but not all the time when the accelerator is released to maintain speed usually on a decline. Back to garage with a print out of your suggestion so we will see. Also someone else has mentioned problems with the engine mounts. "as you release the pedal the engine rocked and the computer thought this was a fuelling fault due to the movement". Clutching at straws but that where I am at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sshortcircuit Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Thanks for all that useful info Nick The fuel filter is the long narrow silver coloured tube located behind the air filter. Will create a bed of rags before removing. It appears to have a collar with two sets of connections which can easily be removed if necessary. Not much I can do with the air mass meter. As you have said nether of these have created major problems and I can anticipate and drive accordingly. The first time it happened I was overtaking a tugger and then had to take to the hard shoulder much to my embarrassment and his delight :-D If anything shows up at the MOT I will come back here but still a few weeks to go. Trying to delay it just in case I go to Spain early next year. Thanks again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champstar Posted March 1, 2013 Author Share Posted March 1, 2013 Another day in the garage..no answers so far Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champstar Posted March 1, 2013 Author Share Posted March 1, 2013 update from garage: Checked all electrics and did continuity testing but nothing found. No problem with accelerator pedal, all values normal. Now looking at possible problem with the cruise control...checking the vacum hoses etc. question has a problem with a cruise control caused a problem like this. Over to you Dave? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Newell Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 Champstar - 2013-03-01 6:56 PM update from garage: Checked all electrics and did continuity testing but nothing found. No problem with accelerator pedal, all values normal. Now looking at possible problem with the cruise control...checking the vacum hoses etc. question has a problem with a cruise control caused a problem like this. Over to you Dave? I assume you mean me and the answer is no. Presumably as it has a vacuum servo the cruise control is an aftermarket unit and as such will have just six electrical connections: Ign switched live feed, normally taken from the ignition switch. Earth. Road speed signal. Clutch switch. two connectios to brake switch, feed and switched signal. I have been fitting aftermarket CC systems for over 11 years now and have fitted an estimated couple of thousand units in that time and NEVER have I encountered a fault such as you describe being caused by the cruise control system. The problem is more likely to be either in the pedal position sensor unit or in the wiring to it. I did encounter one early 2Ks motorhome that suffered from problems with throttle pedal response, that one turned out to be down to the driver spilling a can of Stella over the dashboard which then found its way into the wiring........I kid you not and yes he was driving at the time of the spillage :-S ! D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 euroserv - 2013-02-27 3:48 PM..................In my honest opinion the practice of expecting an aluminium casting to provide a good earth is stupid at best but this is how every manufacturer does it! The Sevel vans have a braided steel earth strap which is prone to corrosion and breaks down over time. A nice thick length of welding cable (think industrial sized jump lead) with proper crimped and soldered tags on the end will do nicely...................Nick But, do be careful with what you use for that earth strap! Copper and aluminium are at opposite ends of the electrochemical spectrum, and given any moisture, even atmospheric moisture, the copper will eat the aluminium in surprisingly short time (electrolysis)! If the gearbox end cap is aly, you may well cure the earthing problem, only to find after a year or two that you have a perforated end cap and an oil leak. I think this may be why they use a steel strap. It may well be cheaper in the longer run to use the steel strap, and coat it with a good dollop of Finegans or similar to hold off the inevitable corrosion for as long as possible, and then replace as and when, or even to see if you can find a stainless steel strap (or get one made up). That should be relatively benign to the aly components, as well as to the galvanised steel chassis end, and should last for years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champstar Posted March 2, 2013 Author Share Posted March 2, 2013 No word from garage today so looks as if it will be Monday before I hear anything now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted March 2, 2013 Share Posted March 2, 2013 What Brian says about copper is asbsolutely true. My boat is antifouled with copper based paint, but you must not paint within 25mm of the aluminium outdrive casing as it will cause electrolytic corrosion of the aluminium. You'd probably be o/k if you isolated the copper crimped eyelets from the aluminium casing using bakelite or similar and use a stainless steel bolt to fix it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 Brian Kirby - 2013-03-01 11:43 PM euroserv - 2013-02-27 3:48 PM..................In my honest opinion the practice of expecting an aluminium casting to provide a good earth is stupid at best but this is how every manufacturer does it! The Sevel vans have a braided steel earth strap which is prone to corrosion and breaks down over time. A nice thick length of welding cable (think industrial sized jump lead) with proper crimped and soldered tags on the end will do nicely...................Nick But, do be careful with what you use for that earth strap! Copper and aluminium are at opposite ends of the electrochemical spectrum, and given any moisture, even atmospheric moisture, the copper will eat the aluminium in surprisingly short time (electrolysis)! If the gearbox end cap is aly, you may well cure the earthing problem, only to find after a year or two that you have a perforated end cap and an oil leak. I think this may be why they use a steel strap. It may well be cheaper in the longer run to use the steel strap, and coat it with a good dollop of Finegans or similar to hold off the inevitable corrosion for as long as possible, and then replace as and when, or even to see if you can find a stainless steel strap (or get one made up). That should be relatively benign to the aly components, as well as to the galvanised steel chassis end, and should last for years. The cables that we are using (and the Fiat dealers are using) are indeed copper but since they are attached to the chassis earth which is steel and the gearbox end cover which is steel also, there should be no problems with sacrificial corrosion or electrolysis. I take your point Brian but in this case it is not a problem. The crimps used are tinned also which would provide some protection from electrolysis even if it is screwed directly to the original earth point on the gearbox casing. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champstar Posted March 4, 2013 Author Share Posted March 4, 2013 No joy at garage they claim to have checked everything including the pedal but on a test today I got 20 miles along the motorway at 2500rpm and came to a slight decline, took my foot of the gas and the same problem happened so now off to an auot elecrician to see what they come up with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 have just read this thread......have you fitted the extra earth strap? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 have just read this thread......have you fitted the extra earth strap? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wooie Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 Get Rid Of It . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champstar Posted March 4, 2013 Author Share Posted March 4, 2013 JudgeMental - 2013-03-04 3:35 PM have just read this thread......have you fitted the extra earth strap? Yes an extra earth was fitted by the garage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverback Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 "Get Rid Of It ." and when they take it for a test drive? 8-) :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champstar Posted March 4, 2013 Author Share Posted March 4, 2013 Wooie - 2013-03-04 3:47 PM Get Rid Of It . The situation is not that clear that I can just get rid of my van,,,not easy to sell with a problem and my finances are limited at present time as I have taken a career break and am living on a budget. Also not seen a newer van with the specs that would suit us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 Are there any more symptoms or fault codes you can add to this saga ? Also, has there been any work done on the van prior to this fault developing which may give a clue, such as an alarm fitted, new battrey or any modification work whatsoever? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 Hello, There is something else that should be checked. You may have a faulty coolant temperature sender. If a high or unintelligible reading is received by the ECU it may assume that the engine is over-heating and enter limp home mode. Worth a try? Nick Without actually having the vehicle in front of me, it is difficult to suggest anything else. If none of the previous suggestions have been right then I would suspect that it is a wiring fault (not that common) or something specifically a symptom on 2.2 PSA engines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 euroserv - 2013-03-04 11:04 AM Brian Kirby - 2013-03-01 11:43 PM euroserv - 2013-02-27 3:48 PM..................In my honest opinion the practice of expecting an aluminium casting to provide a good earth is stupid at best but this is how every manufacturer does it! The Sevel vans have a braided steel earth strap which is prone to corrosion and breaks down over time. A nice thick length of welding cable (think industrial sized jump lead) with proper crimped and soldered tags on the end will do nicely...................Nick But, do be careful with what you use for that earth strap! Copper and aluminium are at opposite ends of the electrochemical spectrum, and given any moisture, even atmospheric moisture, the copper will eat the aluminium in surprisingly short time (electrolysis)! If the gearbox end cap is aly, you may well cure the earthing problem, only to find after a year or two that you have a perforated end cap and an oil leak. I think this may be why they use a steel strap. It may well be cheaper in the longer run to use the steel strap, and coat it with a good dollop of Finegans or similar to hold off the inevitable corrosion for as long as possible, and then replace as and when, or even to see if you can find a stainless steel strap (or get one made up). That should be relatively benign to the aly components, as well as to the galvanised steel chassis end, and should last for years. The cables that we are using (and the Fiat dealers are using) are indeed copper but since they are attached to the chassis earth which is steel and the gearbox end cover which is steel also, there should be no problems with sacrificial corrosion or electrolysis. I take your point Brian but in this case it is not a problem. The crimps used are tinned also which would provide some protection from electrolysis even if it is screwed directly to the original earth point on the gearbox casing. Nick Very wise. Wasn't sure what the gearbox end cover would be made from, but all the talk of aluminium and welding cable (presumably copper) just made me nervous on someone's behalf! :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 The text below is from a peugeot forum just about says it all really. I know it's car, but it's the same engine. "Please, please, please do not buy, regardless however cheap they appear to be. Even if they have full main dealer service history which mine does, this counts for nothing. The electrical problems are minor compared to the problems the 2.2 HDI diesel engine will throw up. Even Peugeot mechanics admit that the engine is too complicated and very unreliable. My Peugeot garage openly admits that the 807 is the worse car they have made to date. Like almost every owner, you will experience cambelt problems (do catch them early), particulate filter problems, turbo problems, egr valve problems ~ all of which required replacement at incredible cost. My car has done fewer than 80K so I wouldn't say its had a particularly hard life. However, if you look at the forums, 80K is about the limit for these engines even if they are well maintained. Engine access is a real issue for the turbo and egr valve replacement as it is positioned somewhere under the radio! I currently have an intermittent acceleration problem which is proving very hard for the garage to locate. As soon as I get this fixed, I am selling." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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