Tracker Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 Now we all know that only petrol engines can 'pink' don't we? So how come my Fiat 2.3 130 does what sounds very much like pinking under medium throttle load and much more so on a gradient even though I certainly never let the engine labour uphill? Usually at about 2000 rpm but it goes away if I change down enough cogs to get the revs over 2500 rpm no matter how hard it then pulls. Maybe I should use lower gears more but the engine is not struggling at 2000 rpm on light gradients and aren't diesels supposed to pull well at low revs? Granted the van is close to 3850 kg but as it was theoretically geared to handle those sort of loads from new in some variants something seems wrong to me? Has anyone else had the same problem and if so how did you solve it please as I hate to hear that horrible noise and I dread to think what long term damage is being caused by what sounds to me very much like pre-ignition? Could it be that French and Spanish diesel has a lower Cetane rating than our stuff, but even so the engine came from Italy in the first place so should in theory be up to the job - shouldn't it? Or do I have a faulty sensor of some sort? My local garage's fault code reader shows no recorded faults and the engine warning light has not come on. He suggested EGR but that was replaced last year with a genuine Fiat part - if that means anything? Otherwise, and apart from a disappointing 23 mpg, the van went well over the 3500 miles to France and Spain and a small diversion back via Agde and the Canal du Midi. I am sceptical but Millers Diesel additive has been suggested as a Cetane booster / injector cleaner? Anyone tried it, or something similar please? I would appreciate any words of wisdom or wit, together with any conspiracy theories on just why modern vehicles have to be so flippin' complex! Confused of King's Lynn? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 knackered? clocked? :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minstrel Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 What make of fuelwas in the tank when you had the problem. We once put in E Leclerc fuel at Millau and the engine pinked badly going north up the A75. It is pretty mountainous there but we've not had that problem before or since. We are very careful not to put in cheap fuel now. We sometimes put in the next grade of diesel when in France as it's not much more expensive. It certainly worked well this time going to the Alps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted April 4, 2013 Author Share Posted April 4, 2013 Minstrel - 2013-04-04 5:34 PM What make of fuel was in the tank when you had the problem. As it happened over so many miles and lots of refills there was no one brand of fuel that seemed to make it better or worse, and I have not yet done enough miles back in the UK to justify a fill up - but I might just try a tankful of BP Ultimate to see the effect- if any. However the one tank full of Premium (VPower I think?) Shell diesel (about 80 litre fill up) that I tried in France made no difference - but it sure cost a lot more! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted April 4, 2013 Author Share Posted April 4, 2013 JudgeMental - 2013-04-04 5:24 PM knackered? clocked? :D Speak for yourself!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 As you suggested at the beginning, a diesel engine cannot "pink", but it certainly can "knock". Have you tried removing the 'tuning box' you fitted to see if that makes any difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 Derek Uzzell - 2013-04-04 6:35 PM Have you tried removing the 'tuning box' you fitted to see if that makes any difference? Strange but I was thinking exactly the same thing and was just about to check which tuning box Eddie had fitted. Keith. PS It was an 'Energy Tuning' box if I'm not mistaken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 On my 2003 2.8 jtd I get a kind of whistling/pinking noise under hard acceleration going up hills, that never used to be there, this has been noticeable for around 5 to 8000 miles, if I ease of the gas it is not so noticeable, but I have noticed nothing different apart from that, ours is a PVC and fuel consumption has not altered, if anything it has improved averaging 32 mpg, with a total mileage of 46k. I should add bog standard engine, no remaps, or magic boxes. ;-) but still a flying machine. But not knowing any different I'd be tempted to think asking a 2.3 to pull that kind of load without dropping down the gears more and keeping the revs up sounds a bit ambitious, my "old" 2.8 will pull in 5th gear at around 35 mph, but it doesn't like it, so I don't do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted April 4, 2013 Author Share Posted April 4, 2013 Derek Uzzell - 2013-04-04 6:35 PM Have you tried removing the 'tuning box' you fitted to see if that makes any difference? I did Derek and it made no difference to the 'pinking' whatsoever - neither did altering the power and torque level settings on the box. One of the benefits of a long trip is that it gives one plenty of opportunity to change things and retry under similar conditions!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted April 4, 2013 Author Share Posted April 4, 2013 1footinthegrave - 2013-04-04 6:58 PM But not knowing any different I'd be tempted to think asking a 2.3 to pull that kind of load without dropping down the gears more and keeping the revs up sounds a bit ambitious, my "old" 2.8 will pull in 5th gear at around 35 mph, but it doesn't like it, so I don't do it. Possibly? But - Old 2.8 td has 120 bhp @ 3600 rpm and 210 ft/lb torque @1800 rpm New 2.3 td has 130 bhp @ 3600 rpm and 240 ft/lb torque @ 2000 rpm. Not so very different and if peak torque is at 2000 rpm it ought to pull cleanly from it's peak torque rpm2000 rpm - as did every other diesel I've ever had - and I've had a few diesels of all sizes over the years! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 Dunno then except to say that I'm around 3100Kg fully loaded with 10 BHP less, but if I don't change down earlier will get a noise of sorts as I described, although I have not got a clue at what sort of rpm it is when it happens. .But as they are two different engines and vehicles there's probably no point in my original I guess. :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted April 4, 2013 Author Share Posted April 4, 2013 1footinthegrave - 2013-04-04 7:53 PM But as they are two different engines and vehicles there's probably no point in my original I guess. :-S I wouldn't say that - all contributions gratefully accepted in the spirit in which they are posted! Your van being 750 kg lighter than mine is a very valid point though!! May I ask that you add 30 bags of cement to your van and let us know how you get on please!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 To me the 120ps 2.3l Fiat engine sounds much more 'laboured' than the 120ps 2.2l Citreon engine, but I don't recall ever hearing ours pink, at least not anything like a petrol engine pink. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 Tracker - 2013-04-04 7:58 PM 1footinthegrave - 2013-04-04 7:53 PM But as they are two different engines and vehicles there's probably no point in my original I guess. :-S I wouldn't say that - all contributions gratefully accepted in the spirit in which they are posted! Your van being 750 kg lighter than mine is a very valid point though!! May I ask that you add 30 bags of cement to your van and let us know how you get on please!! Sorry no, Judgemental is the one that takes his building rubble down the tip in his new PVC, perhaps he'll oblige with half a ton of old house bricks. :D :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted April 4, 2013 Author Share Posted April 4, 2013 1footinthegrave - 2013-04-04 8:34 PM Judgemental is the one that takes his building rubble down the tip in his new PVC, perhaps he'll oblige with half a ton of old house bricks. :D :D Thanks for that as it explains a lot - I hadn't realised that he carried crap as well as talking it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 Tracker - 2013-04-04 11:00 PM 1footinthegrave - 2013-04-04 8:34 PM Judgemental is the one that takes his building rubble down the tip in his new PVC, perhaps he'll oblige with half a ton of old house bricks. :D :D Thanks for that as it explains a lot - I hadn't realised that he carried crap as well as talking it! Ha ha ha....as I cruise past your overweight, spluttering shed on wheels doing 80+ in my silver bullet.. 1 foot, I am not in love with it or precious about it, it's a van for heavens sake..I board and sheet. it's a practical multi purpose vehicle, not a gin palace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spospe Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 Rich We have a 2.4 MK7 Transit and when new it was significantly quieter than it is now, especially when cold. Now it tends to emit a harsh sounding 'pinky' kind of noise when accelerating (most obvious during the warm-up phase). Reading on the Transit Forum and talking to other Transit owners, this is quite normal and is no more than a sign that the engine is aging normally. My guess at the moment is that what you are hearing is no more than normal (for your type of engine), but it is always difficult to accurately diagnose noises from a distance! If you have not already tried it, can I suggest a dose of injector cleaner? Another suggestion from the Transit Forum is to add two-stroke oil to the fuel in the ratio of about 30:1, as many users claim that this quietens the engine and improves running (at best it could help, at worst it will only cost you the oil for the trial). Please let us know the answer when you eventually find it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 Tracker The only forum member likely to be able to give you informed Ducato-related advice on this is Nick Fisher (euroserv) and the "Pinking" title of your original posting may well not attract his attention. As no fault-related information shows on your motorhome's dashboard when the noise occurs and your local garage's diagnostic system is unhelpful, you're on something of a loser. Replacing the EGR-valve (again) might work, or might not - the only sure way to check would be to do it. You might (though I doubt it) get some useful feedback from the Fiat Forum, but I'd trust Nick more. A fuel-system additive might do some good, but it's evident from GOOGLE searches that as many people seem to loath additives as love them. If the cause of problem is 'mechanical' (and that includes 'electronic') then an additive won't cure it. If the cause is 'chemical' - like there's muck of some sort in the fuel system - then an additive might do some good. As the noise is sufficiently noticeable and worrying that you are adapting you driving style to avoid it, this suggests that there is something genuinely wrong. If your garage is a Fiat agent with lots of Ducato familiarity (and you can provoke the noise at will) one of their mechanics may be able to diagnose the cause by ear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 I wonder if additives are more akin to homoeopathy, given that they are so dilute once in the tank, is it just a placebo effect, how would you really know ? :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted April 5, 2013 Author Share Posted April 5, 2013 spospe - 2013-04-05 9:30 AM Rich We have a 2.4 MK7 Transit and when new it was significantly quieter than it is now, especially when cold. Now it tends to emit a harsh sounding 'pinky' kind of noise when accelerating (most obvious during the warm-up phase). Reading on the Transit Forum and talking to other Transit owners, this is quite normal and is no more than a sign that the engine is aging normally. My guess at the moment is that what you are hearing is no more than normal (for your type of engine), but it is always difficult to accurately diagnose noises from a distance! If you have not already tried it, can I suggest a dose of injector cleaner? Another suggestion from the Transit Forum is to add two-stroke oil to the fuel in the ratio of about 30:1, as many users claim that this quietens the engine and improves running (at best it could help, at worst it will only cost you the oil for the trial). Please let us know the answer when you eventually find it. Thanks Michael and I will of course post any developments if there are any! We bought the van at 10000 miles and it now has 18000 and, as you say, I too appreciate that many diesels tend to get noisier as they clock up the miles. However I would be surprised if a mere 8000 miles would make a significant difference, especially as it seemed OK before we left some 3500 ago. That said I'm not sure that this pinking under load qualifies as the sort of clatter you expect from any diesel at any mileage but I've always been aware of a subdued rattle under load and as you say that too is a trait of diesels. It does it both on a cold and a hot engine. This rattle under load has become much louder and perhaps it's just a case that I suffer from too much 'mechanical sympathy' as my Dad used to call it - brought about by too many years in old bangers, nursing them along and listening for every sound to try and avoid expensive repairs! I've put some Millers Diesel treatment in and will give that a try as that is supposed to contain a Cetane booster as well as a detergent and if I had known about two stoke oil I would have tried that first as I have plenty of that in the garage! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted April 5, 2013 Author Share Posted April 5, 2013 1footinthegrave - 2013-04-05 10:03 AM I wonder if additives are more akin to homoeopathy, given that they are so dilute once in the tank, is it just a placebo effect, how would you really know ? :-S If the noise goes away it works and if it don't, it don't! Some swear by them others swear at them! I too am far from convinced but I will only get caught once if it don't help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted April 5, 2013 Author Share Posted April 5, 2013 Derek Uzzell - 2013-04-05 9:39 AM Tracker The only forum member likely to be able to give you informed Ducato-related advice on this is Nick Fisher (euroserv) and the "Pinking" title of your original posting may well not attract his attention. As no fault-related information shows on your motorhome's dashboard when the noise occurs and your local garage's diagnostic system is unhelpful, you're on something of a loser. Replacing the EGR-valve (again) might work, or might not - the only sure way to check would be to do it. You might (though I doubt it) get some useful feedback from the Fiat Forum, but I'd trust Nick more. A fuel-system additive might do some good, but it's evident from GOOGLE searches that as many people seem to loath additives as love them. If the cause of problem is 'mechanical' (and that includes 'electronic') then an additive won't cure it. If the cause is 'chemical' - like there's muck of some sort in the fuel system - then an additive might do some good. As the noise is sufficiently noticeable and worrying that you are adapting you driving style to avoid it, this suggests that there is something genuinely wrong. If your garage is a Fiat agent with lots of Ducato familiarity (and you can provoke the noise at will) one of their mechanics may be able to diagnose the cause by ear. Thanks Derek and I agree with all that you say. The local Fiat car garage does not inspire confidence and maybe a trip to Norwich or Peterborough to the truck agents might be in order - or maybe a local diesel specialist? I don't mind spending money to cure it - if there is a cure - but I object to spending money only to be told there's nothing wrong or nothing they can do to help. As you say, Nick may well have some useful tips and whilst I don't really want to bother him with a PM I can only hope that he sees this thread! I'll try the Millers and see how it goes for a couple of hundred miles to give it a chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 Ah yes, the dreaded "mechanical sympathy" I've suffered from it all my life, but sympathy borne out of crank regrinds and oversize shells in years gone by, even with many a dose of Redex added. ;-) But I've just picked up this comment on the net.....................................................mmmmmm I had a similar experience but with Miller Oils diesel treatment. I used the correct dosage in my Astravan and now the engine clatters like a !!!!!!! and has lost power. Mechanic says the compression is down and reckons it's knackered the seals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted April 5, 2013 Author Share Posted April 5, 2013 1footinthegrave - 2013-04-05 10:42 AM I had a similar experience but with Miller Oils diesel treatment. I used the correct dosage in my Astravan and now the engine clatters like a !!!!!!! and has lost power. Mechanic says the compression is down and reckons it's knackered the seals. Oh gee - thanks for that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 Sorry Tracker, but doesn't it just illustrate the point there doesn't seem to be any objective way of finding out if these things are just snake oil, or worst still that they could cause problems with a modern engine and modern fuels . A further thought would be does any commercial operator use fuel additives, considering the starship mileages they do one could argue if there is any real benefit they would be on the case, another Mmmmmm. :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.