josie gibblebucket Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 http://www.smallmotorhome.co.uk/statementfromromahome.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 If they are right van conversions will become even more popular...a real shame if it means that small individualistic companies are prevented from satisfying a particular niche market.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 I'm not at all clear on what these changes will mean? So what designs/practices will these "changes" curtail.... Why can't they build on bases with ESP?.... Surely they're not saying that if a vehicle has ESP,then it can only be fitted with the body that it left the factory with?... ...or is it the case that only the "Big Boys" will be able to afford to put their vehicles through any necessary scrutiny?.... :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 pepe63 - 2013-10-04 12:33 PM I'm not at all clear on what these changes will mean? So what designs/practices will these "changes" curtail.... Why can't they build on bases with ESP?.... Surely they're not saying that if a vehicle has ESP,then it can only be fitted with the body that it left the factory with?... ...or is it the case that only the "Big Boys" will be able to afford to put their vehicles through any necessary scrutiny?.... :-S I think this only applies to the Berlingo as it's ESP is not programmed to cope with the larger overhang. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 Oh..I see.. (...having said that, they always look over bodied in my view, anyway.. :-S ) Edit: Ignore that bit above..I was picturing the Dispatch/Scudo type based vehicles... :$ ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobalobs Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 But there are a number of coachbuilts with large overhangs often when the converter has cut corners by building on the shorter base chassis. Are all these going? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 bobalobs - 2013-10-04 1:33 PM But there are a number of coachbuilts with large overhangs often when the converter has cut corners by building on the shorter base chassis. Are all these going? A very good question! Have seen some awful overhangs over the years..reversing around a corner must be fun :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 bobalobs - 2013-10-04 1:33 PM But there are a number of coachbuilts with large overhangs often when the converter has cut corners by building on the shorter base chassis. Are all these going? AFAIK the chassis manufacturers recommend max size for each wheelbase even before ESP systems became available, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobalobs Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 And what about demountables? I suppose you buy a base vehicle which has effective ESP and then mounting the habitation unit will then upset the ESP? Very odd. Is there an expert who can post an answer in words of one syllable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobalobs Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 And what about towing a trailer? Will that not have the same effect as a large overhang? The world has gone mad but I expect the wealthy will benefit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muswell Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 ESP is recognised as being a major improvement in vehicle safety. And whereas you might not mind driving a vehicle that is less safe than it might be, what about if you collide with someone else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 colin - 2013-10-04 1:11 PM pepe63 - 2013-10-04 12:33 PM I'm not at all clear on what these changes will mean? So what designs/practices will these "changes" curtail.... Why can't they build on bases with ESP?.... Surely they're not saying that if a vehicle has ESP,then it can only be fitted with the body that it left the factory with?... ...or is it the case that only the "Big Boys" will be able to afford to put their vehicles through any necessary scrutiny?.... :-S I think this only applies to the Berlingo as it's ESP is not programmed to cope with the larger overhang. It must be the Dispatch as well, as Romahome have ceased making the R40. only the R10 and R30 can be bought new. Shame, I liked their Designs, perfect for singles or 'size concious' couples. can't see the problem myself, can anyone explain ? in simple terms. What about 'Nu Venture' ? they build on Dispatch or Berlingo ? Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Rayjsj - 2014-02-25 7:26 PM It must be the Dispatch as well, as Romahome have ceased making the R40. only the R10 and R30 can be bought new. Shame, I liked their Designs, perfect for singles or 'size concious' couples. can't see the problem myself, can anyone explain ? in simple terms. What about 'Nu Venture' ? they build on Dispatch or Berlingo ? Ray In simple terms..Oh dear, I will try. The new Berlingo as with may other small vehicles built to latest EU safety standards are equipped with ESP which stands for Electronic Stability Program ( Extra Sensory Perception should the truth be known) . Also known as ESC Electronic Stability Control. How it works is it attempts to predict situations where loss of vehicle stability will occur. A bit like anti lock brakes detecting a wheel locking up so releases that wheels brakes momentarily so the wheel turns again. If say an understeer condition occurs it will apply the rear brake on the inside of the direction you are steering to counteract the understeer, and for over steer would be the front outside wheel. The problem Romahome have is the system will not operated correctly once they have added all their bits and pieces and rear overhang. As the vehicles have only been approved and homologated to EU safety standards with the system fitted, so they can not build on those vehicles. The system can allow for extra weight on the axles but it cannot compensate for the additional weight where it overhangs the axles and adds additional moments of force. I said I would try to explain simply, so I failed. Never mind, at least I tried! I shoud have added, the system could be modified and tested for approval but was probably not ecomomical for them to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 But won't all converters that produce vans with large overhangs have this problem? Our latest van conversion has ESP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 There's a 2013 statement about this on the Romahome website http://www.romahome.com/latest-news/romahome-changes/ and there's a multi-page explanation relating to ESC/ESP here http://auto.howstuffworks.com/car-driving-safety/safety-regulatory-devices/electronic-stability-control.htm This 2009 article refers to forthcoming EC regulations that include mandatory fitting of ESC systems, with 1st November 2014 being quoted as a pivotal date. http://www.interregs.com/spotlight.php?id=84 This regulation isn't directly connected to 'overhangs'. ESC is currently available for the majority of chassis on which larger new motorhomes (irrespective of their design-specification or overhang dimensions) are based (Ducato, Boxer, Sprinter, etc.), but it's normally offered as an option rather than as standard fitment. Presumably, in future, ESC will need to be provided as standard on all new motorhomes with EC Whole Vehicle Type Approval (ECWVTA) and a build-date after 1st November 2014. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 You have a van conversion not a coach built. One problem is manufatures are not making chassis versions for coach building on of all new vehicles. Taking a van body and cutting it off to coach build on voids any type approvals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 The whole vehicle type approval thing is an inconvenient nonsense. In the example from Brambles above, If the converter was to register the vehicle in the EU as a van; he could do pretty much whatever he wants to do to it afterwards without any problems and with the original type approval intact. Not at all clever but legally correct. I can buy a chassis cab with a type approved dropside body, get it registered and then put a Luton body that is not type approved on it instead. It does not matter. The ESP thing has bothered me for a long time. I do not understand how a factory set ESP for a chassis cab can be effective when the manufacturer has no idea what body (or how the weight will be distributed) will eventually be fitted to it. This is not a problem isolated in motor caravan construction, but must be at the worst end of a severity scale. The only on board adjustment for the vehicle is a load sensing valve that adjusts the amount of pressure applied to rear brakes depending on the load above it. If there is a very long rear over-hang, even this device will get confused when things start swaying around so it seems unlikely that any compensation applied by ESP will be any use, and it might make things worse. It's only my opinion but I fear that ESP should be disabled on large conversions unless it has been specifically designed and calibrated for that application. I also think that making it a mandatory fitment is another result of namby pamby safety people making rules without considering the implications. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hallii Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Another bit of EU law making, poorly thought out and made compulsive on all EU States. Strange that a German company developed and licences production of ESP (Bosch). The quicker we get out of the EU and start making our own laws again the better. H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 hallii - 2014-02-26 1:07 PM Another bit of EU law making, poorly thought out and made compulsive on all EU States. Strange that a German company developed and licences production of ESP (Bosch). The quicker we get out of the EU and start making our own laws again the better. H That's ridiculous... The background to ESC regulation (there's a long article on Wikipedia) is stated as follows: "The Canadian province of Quebec was the first jurisdiction to implement an ESC law, making it compulsory for carriers of dangerous goods (without data recorders) in 2005. The United States was next, requiring ESC for all passenger vehicles under 10,000 pounds (4536 kg), phasing in the regulation starting with 55% of 2009 models (effective 1 September 2008), 75% of 2010 models, 95% of 2011 models, and all 2012 models. Canada will require all new passenger vehicles to have ESC from 1 September 2011. The Australian Government announced on 23 June 2009 that ESC would be compulsory from 1 November 2011 for all new passenger vehicles sold in Australia, and for all new vehicles from November 2013. The European Parliament has also called for the accelerated introduction of ESC. The European Commission has confirmed a proposal for the mandatory introduction of ESC on all new cars and commercial vehicle models sold in the EU from 2012, with all new cars being equipped by 2014. The United Nations Economic Commission for Europe has passed a Global Technical Regulation to harmonize ESC standards." I started driving on vehicles with no power-brakes, no power-steering, no seat belts, no air-bags, no traction control and no electronic driver aids like ESC. I'm very pleased that my current motorhome has all of the above except ESC and, if I replace it, I shall specify ESC if it isn't already present. Who in their right mind would wish not to have the option to choose a safety-related driving aid that's proven to be effective? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 then you fit airides and they fool load sensing valve into thinking... Oh I have a lighter load now..then what. this was a thing that concerned me when running pick up trucks with demountable camper bodies with rear air suspension Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hallii Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Derek Uzzell - 2014-02-26 1:37 PM hallii - 2014-02-26 1:07 PM Another bit of EU law making, poorly thought out and made compulsive on all EU States. Strange that a German company developed and licences production of ESP (Bosch). The quicker we get out of the EU and start making our own laws again the better. H That's ridiculous... The background to ESC regulation (there's a long article on Wikipedia) is stated as follows: "The Canadian province of Quebec was the first jurisdiction to implement an ESC law, making it compulsory for carriers of dangerous goods (without data recorders) in 2005. The United States was next, requiring ESC for all passenger vehicles under 10,000 pounds (4536 kg), phasing in the regulation starting with 55% of 2009 models (effective 1 September 2008), 75% of 2010 models, 95% of 2011 models, and all 2012 models. Canada will require all new passenger vehicles to have ESC from 1 September 2011. The Australian Government announced on 23 June 2009 that ESC would be compulsory from 1 November 2011 for all new passenger vehicles sold in Australia, and for all new vehicles from November 2013. The European Parliament has also called for the accelerated introduction of ESC. The European Commission has confirmed a proposal for the mandatory introduction of ESC on all new cars and commercial vehicle models sold in the EU from 2012, with all new cars being equipped by 2014. The United Nations Economic Commission for Europe has passed a Global Technical Regulation to harmonize ESC standards." I started driving on vehicles with no power-brakes, no power-steering, no seat belts, no air-bags, no traction control and no electronic driver aids like ESC. I'm very pleased that my current motorhome has all of the above except ESC and, if I replace it, I shall specify ESC if it isn't already present. Who in their right mind would wish not to have the option to choose a safety-related driving aid that's proven to be effective? It's not the effectiveness or desirability of any ESP/ESC that I object to, it is the fact that so many of our laws are now being made in a foreign country and forced upon us. As you may gather Derek, I am not a lover of the EU. I love Europe and the people who live there, but not the European Union. I to learned to drive in a vehicle with no power-brakes, no power-steering, no seat belts, no air-bags, no traction control and no electronic driver aids like ESC and it had no indicators, one windscreen wiper, no synchromesh and took half a mile to stop! Happy days. H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yeti Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 We must leave the EU NOW! The original concept was for European trade without cross border tariffs and restrictions. Now it has become an incompetent barmy lawmaking body,also corrupt with dodgy dealings,I think this is one of them. Merkel has achieved financially what Hitler failed to do! Despite them failing to sign off their accounts together with little or no monitoring of assistance packages. The French will just shrug their shoulders and carry on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 JudgeMental - 2014-02-26 1:41 PM then you fit airides and they fool load sensing valve into thinking... Oh I have a lighter load now..then what. With the Dunlop system there is a special bracket included in the kit and the instructions clearly state that you must disable the LSV when you fit the system. In other words you make the LSV think it is fully laden all the time. Note this only applies to vehicles without ABS as I believe if ABS is fitted you don't get an LSV (well you certainly don't on a Sprinter). Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Dear Oh dear I see the looney right wingers are among us yet gain....so you would rather laws made by the insidious crypto-fascists when we lost millions of lives defeating these mongrels during 2 world wars..sounds about right...idiots! also while on the topic: why do you think our NHS and social security system so attractive to others..its because its free at source! our european neighbors dont have this problem! Absolutely nothing to do with europe! we have made these problem all on our own, with lack of foresight and proper controls over access and not identifying non emergency users, and making them pay up front for treatment... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 While I despise the EU, like many others, I did not blame this on the EU! The idea that you should have ESP on cars and light commercials makes complete sense and should be applauded. When it was an option it was expensive but now it is mandatory it has made little difference to the list price of vehicles. Funny that..... What i don't agree with is fitting a calibrated system to a van or truck chassis that cannot possibly be optimised for the body that is ultimately fitted to it and I believe could potentially make it less safe. The practice of disabling load sensing valves when fitting air suspension is also stupid. If the vehicle is set to assume a full load at all times, what happens if there is a reduced load on the vehicle or a severe transfer of mass to the front axle during braking? Rear brakes lock up and that is what the device is supposed to prevent. The implementation of this legislation was obviously done without consulting designers and engineers, and that is what is wrong with committees, government bodies and European quangos whether the Canadians or anyone else started the ball rolling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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