Advice on buying campervan for winter use

[Guest peter]

Derek Uzzell - 2013-12-11 9:15 AM

 

There are various materials that might be suitable for insulating a panel-van conversion (PVC). This product is self-adhesive

 

http://www.airtradecentre.com/UK/UK/documentation/F01.030.2-K-FLEX-ADH-Self-adhesive-insulation-rolls

 

and may well be the stuff Hobby used on the underside of my motorhome's overcab section (or - to be exact - on PART of the underside of my motorhome's overcab section!!).

 

A high-tech self-adhesive "Thinsulate" material was developed and marketed in two thicknesses by Webasto a few years ago and (I believe) was employed by Auto-Sleepers.

 

There's an "Insulating a Motorcaravan" chapter in John Wickersham's book "Build Your Own Motorcaravan", and this 2007 forum thread delves into the subject.

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/-fully-winterised-motorhome-my-a-/10077/

 

A GOOGLE-search on "campervan insulation" will also retrieve plenty of useful information, including this

 

http://www.campervanconversion.co.uk/campervan-insulation.html

 

The current issue of MMM (January 2014) mentions on Page 28 that "All Auto-Sleepers new van conversions have successfully achieved the Grade III classification for heating and thermal insulation - the highest rating possible".

 

Even though a PVC design proves capable of achieving Grade III, if the campervan is riddled with large gas drop-vents (as seems to be obligatory for UK-built PVCs), or the fridge isn't properly sealed from the lving-area, when the wind gets up draughts inside the vehicle will be inevitable. As 1foot says, minimising window sizes and (as IH Motorhomes do on some of their vehicles) getting rid of the rear doors should help to retain interior heat, but there will still be the question of how a PVC's water-related services will continue to function indefinitely in very cold weather.

 

Many PVCs have their fresh- and waste-water tanks beneath the vehicle's floor and, no matter how well these are insulated, they are going to be vulnerable to icing up. Some PVCs (generally built outside the UK) have internal fresh-water tanks and these often have the option to specify heated and insulated external waste-water tanks and pipework. As far as I'm aware only certain La Strada PVC models have both fresh- and waste-water tanks inside the motorhome.

 

As a rule of thumb, I'd suggest that, if a PVC's specification includes an internal fresh-water tank and a heated/insulated external waste-water tank (or the option to specify the latter), it's likely that the converter will have taken sensible steps to insulate the rest of vehicle.

 

 

 

Any self adhesive insulation or anything else for that matter will undoubtably fall off when the hot sun gets on the outer skin.

I can't see how any panel van can be any good in winter. Where's all the moisture going to condense to?, any uninsulated part of the steel bodywork is the answer and in a few years rust will set in. You would be amazed at the amount of water that gets generated in one day inside a coachbuilt, never mind a small tin van. You only have to look at the windscreen of a well insulated coachbuilt without silver screens on a freezing morning to see loads. Even with screens, it's still there unless you ventilate it or use a de-humidifier when on mains, as we do.

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

So that's what happened to all my Decals :D

[david lloyd]

rolandrat - 2013-12-11 9:53 AM

 

IH campervans fitted with the rear panel such as the Tio R and RL are OK but as with them all you have to take into consideration the side sliding door which can be a source of a slight draught. Also you have to take into consideration the regulation fitted air vents that you might want to seal off. As van conversions are all steel they will never be the same as a coach built for insulation properties.

 

IH have now overcome the side sliding door problem with their new N-Class vehicles. These can be specified with fixed rear panel and with the side sliding door replaced with a fully integrated panel that includes a coachbuilt style Hartal door. Having had other van conversions with rear doors I can say the rear panel alone takes the winter comfort levels to another level. I expect the Hartal door will do likewise.

 

We have used our IH in this country throughout winter - the worst was a week in Grassington one December in temps as low as -6 at night and remaining below freezing during the day. Each night we had 3 - 4 inches of snow and had to negotiate about ten inches of snow when we left.

 

It is the only van in which we do not use an insulated windscreen cover but our latest model does have 12v water tank heaters just in case.

 

David

[Tony Jones]

We've used Roxie during the last 6 UK winters and always been warm and comfortable. Unfortunately Horizons are no more, but the main guys now trade as Vectra Motorcaravans. New name, various base vehicles, but I'd bet on the same build quality. Check them out.

[david1949]

You guys have sourly give me something to think about come the new year ill have a look around at some of the campervans you have recommended to me I still like the Hymer but they never got back in touch with me regarding what installation they used on there campervans conversion so thanks again for all your help

[Retread24800]

 Theres bags of info out there on Hymer From the B-class of integrals through to the Exsis and the Tramp series all are blessed with probably the finest insulation available in a European van, the famous Plual system. Most if not all have double floors and insulated and heated fresh and waste water tanks with internal ( between the floors ) pipework.

http://www.hymer.com/en/models/integrated/hymer-exsis-i/overview.html#.UqkOJSfFolQ

If you look at the page above you will find a link to the Hymervan and Hymercompact ranges which are again blessed with a sandwich foam insulation to keep the chill out.   

Even my ancient (1993) example has totally internal pipework and fresh water tank and I can excuse its lack of an insulated and heated waste tank, it was 40000€ cheaper than the tin boxes being suggested earlier! Oh and I use it in the snow without problems.

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

Retread24800 - 2013-12-12 1:26 AM Theres bags of info out there on Hymer From the B-class of integrals through to the Exsis and the Tramp series all are blessed with probably the finest insulation available in a European van, the famous Plual system. Most if not all have double floors and insulated and heated fresh and waste water tanks with internal ( between the floors ) pipework.

http://www.hymer.com/en/models/integrated/hymer-exsis-i/overview.html#.UqkOJSfFolQ

If you look at the page above you will find a link to the Hymervan and Hymercompact ranges which are again blessed with a sandwich foam insulation to keep the chill out.   

Even my ancient (1993) example has totally internal pipework and fresh water tank and I can excuse its lack of an insulated and heated waste tank, it was 40000€ cheaper than the tin boxes being suggested earlier! Oh and I use it in the snow without problems.

I think the bloke is looking for a camper van, by that everyone has assumed a panel van conversion, not a coach built :-S

[Derek Uzzell]

This French article may be of interest as it shows the build process for PVCs produced by the Trigano Group (excluding Auto-Trail models) in the Italian factory.

 

http://www.fourgonlesite.com/pratique-visite-usine-trigano-van-pxl-824_899.html

 

The insulation material used comprises 10mm or 20mm polyester-fibre sheeting with an adhesive on one side and aluminium foil on the other. 18-22 square metres of material are needed to cover the walls and roof. Where practicable additional foam is fixed to the rear of wall panelling to provide extra insulation.

[david1949]

Very very interesting thank,s just what I'm looking thanks for thanks

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

I really hate to say this, but we had one for just a few months, selling it and loosing a bundle in the process, so keen we were to get shut of.

It was without doubt the biggest pile of crap, God knows what I was thinking of when we bought it, bed making was a nightmare, loads of cushions to juggle around, and once in bed it was freezing, the insulation was almost non existent, maybe the newer models are different, but I'd try and speak to some owners before taking the plunge.

[Guest JudgeMental]

Possl 2014 pricelist: winter pack, includes heated and insulated external waste tank. carpet drivers cab, isolation pad for back doors and front doors. cost 1299€ so about £1080.

 

Possl/globecar probably best value and they have a much better shower arrangement, the hymer lounge and table pretty poor, plus cost of extras mount up and why I went for the Adria at the time...just was a better package for the money. The build and standard of insulation good in a Possl, have seen cross sections before at a show, and had a pic but cant find it but yo see it at end of this video.... The videos show how they are built including installation of insulation. you can stop video as it progresses and see whats happening, the solid insulated floor section looks substantial

 

 

UK as usual slow to catch on...Germans have been offering door conversions for near half UK price at least since 2010 *-)

 

 

 

 

[Retread24800]

1footinthegrave - 2013-12-12 5:52 AM I think the bloke is looking for a camper van, by that everyone has assumed a panel van conversion, not a coach built :-S

 

Yes re reading the OP It seems as if he is considering down sizing to a panel van but is considering the down side, poor insulation, no double floor, cold spots, drafts etc all of which are possible to overcome at a price. but perhaps the downsize could be accomplished by staying with a CB ie the Dethleffs Globus series at only 2.15m wide, the Hymer Exsis series on the Ford base at 2.12m wide etc down size by all means but down grade?

 

[Guest JudgeMental]

but you're not reading the thread. There are winterised double floor panel vans available. Plus many of us have had enough of CB's to be honest and all the associated problems ;-)

[Derek Uzzell]

JudgeMental - 2013-12-12 11:20 AM

 

...the solid insulated floor section looks substantial...

 

 

korky24's 8 November 2013 5:47 PM posting here (?)

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/German-address-for-Globecar-Possl/33123/

[Guest JudgeMental]

Yes of course I remember that..you can't use that to condemn every van thats comes of the production line! and at least they have a production line! Still think, although not entirely to my tastes these offer best all round value for money in a van conversion, especially if you go for a self import LHD.

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

Derek Uzzell - 2013-12-12 1:41 PM

 

JudgeMental - 2013-12-12 11:20 AM

 

...the solid insulated floor section looks substantial...

 

 

korky24's 8 November 2013 5:47 PM posting here (?)

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/German-address-for-Globecar-Possl/33123/

 

I think he''s making it up, every thing that comes out of Deutschland is the dogs................. ;-) well according to some. :D

[korky24]

Hi there.

 

Just an update on my previous posting linked above.

 

It was posted here on the Friday and I got a call from the dealership on the Monday.

 

That could of course just be a coincidence.

 

Globecar have undertaken to rectify all the faults at the factory next summer when I visit Germany.

 

Just have to list one more fault with them.

 

Was camped high above Staithes on the weekend before the big storm the other week.

 

It was very blustery and the rear mini-heki rooflight was extremely draughty directly over the bed,(not sealing completely when closed by a couple of mm) so much so I moved the van @3am behind some buildings to mitigate draught . Draught was so great it sucked roman blind up into skylight aperture severely creasing it.

 

Cheers, John.

[grahamw]

I have to agree that offerings from across the channel are more likely to offer a higher standard of insulation than UK vans. I also believe that the UK converters have been slow to catch on to the requirements of the UK market. More and more of us are using our vans throughout the year and need them to be better insulated. Vantage and IH disappointingly have not broken any new ground here and still just fit tank heaters and basic insulation underneath the vehicle. Many have tried to respond to this issue by simply increasing the amount of heat available as compensation for high heat losses and then claiming that they are Class/Grade 3 compliant regarding insulation. This does nothing to address the issue of the vulnerable tanks underneath.

 

Probably the best attempt so far from the UK is Auto-Trail's V Line - Grade 3 compliant based on a 4kw Combi heater. The double floor does allow most of the pipework to be inboard and it appears to me that the only pipework underneath the vehicle are very short vertical drops to the tanks. These should be easy to insulate well. The freshwater tank is fitted with a jacket and a heater is an extra. I do note that on the CB models the tank heater is replaced with a heat mat the same size as the floor of the tank. This is fitted inside the thermal jacket and heats the whole of the base of the tank. Unfortunately this is not fitted as yet to the PVC's. Bringing water tanks inboard can have a big impact on internal storage in a PVC and I would be interested to see how well the V-Line's cope in cold weather. Of interest also I gather that the soon to be released V-Line 610 with a rear lounge will have a fixed rear panel instead of the two rear doors improving comfort levels somewhat.

[pepe63xnotuse]

korky24 - 2013-12-12 3:34 PM

 

Just have to list one more fault with them.

 

 

It was very blustery and the rear mini-heki rooflight was extremely draughty directly over the bed,(not sealing completely when closed by a couple of mm)...

 

Is it possible that it is "permanently vented" and supposed to be like that?...

 

Surely, if we seal up ALL the draughts, we'll end up with even worse condensation problems.... :-S

[Guest JudgeMental]

pic would not load as not jpeg.....try this

 

possl insulation

 

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

Doesn't that just illustrate the problem with a panel van, do the same to the walls and you'd end up with a three foot wide space. :D

 

[korky24]

 

No, it's not the passive ventilation built into the roof vent frame I'm talking about.

 

Don't have a problem with that. Apart from this mini-heki in windy conditions, van is very warm and draught free.

 

The plastic roof window moves up and down a few mm in the wind making it too draughty to sleep, too noisy to sleep and destroying roof blind in the process. That is not normal ventilation.

 

John.

[Guest JudgeMental]

Korky, if it's a UK supplied van why don't you just leave it with supplying dealer and get him to sort out issues. Surely a delaminated floor is not going to get fixed on a quick factory visit ?

 

If I slam or open doors the change in pressure means the heki blind if closed can blow in or out depending..I thought they all did

[korky24]

Hi Judge,

 

If you look at my original post you'll see supplying dealer have attempted repair twice already. This was done under direction of Globecar.

Agree it is responsibility of supplying dealer really but with all the other problems would rather take it to the factory now and let them talk me through the repair.

 

Also I'm going to Germany anyway for a couple of months.

 

I will be insisting on an extended warranty on the repair, and will also tell them politely what I think of their sloppy workmanship.

 

Cheers, John.

[Guest JudgeMental]

I am presuming they drilled floor injected glue and clamped..if this has not worked twice, a replacement floor is a big job! Just look at earlier video in this thread for details of what is involved..a week at least I would think, depending on how much labour they throw at it.......