Wild camping

[Carolmonkey]

When we went to France earlier this year we stayed on an aire but what we didn't realise was the fridge did not keep my frozen food frozen for very long running off the battery and therefore I had to throw a lot of food away. What do you do if you want to go out for the day sight seeing, do people leave the motorhome in a car park with the gas on to the fridge to keep the food frozen. Grateful for any advice.

[Keithl]

Hi Carol,

 

Looking at photos of an Elddis Aspire MH it would appear that you have a 3 way absorption fridge which, unfortunately, will NOT run off your leisure battery.

 

It will run off 12v with the engine running, 230v when you have an EHU or gas when you have neither.

 

So the simple answer is you will have to run it off gas if you are camping with no EHU.

 

Keith.

 

PS There should be a warning light to show whether the fridge is functioning on whichever source you have selected.

[Derek Uzzell]

Which make & model of fridge-freezer is fitted to your motorhome, please?

 

The reason I ask is that the specification for an Aspire 255 (and not just the current model's specification) indicates that it would have a 'smart' fridge that should automatically switch between 12V, 230V and gas operation depending on what's available.

 

When the motorhome's engine IS running, such a fridge should automatically select 12V operation and be powered by the vehicle's alternator.

 

When the motorhome's engine IS NOT running and the vehicle IS connected to a 230V 'hook-up', such a fridge should automatically select 230V and be powered from the hook-up's mains electrical supply.

 

When the motorhome's engine IS NOT running and the vehicle IS NOT connected to a 230V 'hook-up' (eg. at a car-park-type 'aire'), such a fridge should automatically select gas operation and be powered from the motorhome's on-board gas cylinders (or tank).

 

If your Aspire has got a 'smart' fridge and it is not selecting gas operation when no 12V or 230V power-source is available, there are several possibilities.

 

1: There's something wrong with the fridge.

 

2: You've turned off the gas supply.

 

3: The fridge allows you to overide the automatic-selection capability and you've chosen the 12V setting without appreciating that this would prevent the fridge from operating.

 

The 2014 Owners Handbook for the Aspire range is here:

 

http://www.elddis.co.uk/documents/Handbooks/2014/Aspire-2014-Hk-complete_21327.pdf

 

and fridges are described in Sections 9-11 to 9-16.

 

I note that this warning is given

 

"Electrical operation

12V-voltage (on-board power supply)

CAUTION: The refrigerator should only be used in 12V DC operation while the vehicle’s engine is running, otherwise the on-board battery would be discharged within a few hours."

 

In practice, any right-thinking motorhome manufacturer will have wired up the fridge in such a way that it cannot operate on 12V unless the vehicle's engine is running. Then - even if the motorhome owner deliberately selects 12V operation when the vehicle's motor is stopped - the fridge will not operate and the battery will not be discharged.

 

 

[Iain Strachan]

Hi, we have an Elddis 255, as far as I'm aware the fridge will only operate on 12v when the vehicle is running. We leave our gas turned on even whilst running, and when we stop the vehicle, the fridge auto changes to gas.

This is what we use on aires. Our van is 2011. so things might have changed, but I am very surprised that anyone should try and run a fridge freezer of that size off 12v. for any time. Maybe another back step for Elddis?

[snowie]

Iain Strachan - 2013-12-16 3:57 PM

 

............... but I am very surprised that anyone should try and run a fridge freezer of that size off 12v. for any time.

 

Sounds to me like either a very poor or handover or a simple case of "Read the Manuals"!!

Easy mistake to make I feel. 12V operation of an absorption fridge in transit is a weak area, never very satisfactory in our experience.

regards

alan b

[bolero boy]

Got this from the Eldiss web site

 

Class-leading 189L Smart Energy fridge-freezer (255, 265, 275) (Auto switchover between gas, 230V electric and 12v battery should power fail), 122L fridge freezer (205)

 

Dereks description tells of common usage patterns and i was trying to glean from your post whether you had arrived at the site and the food wasnt frozen (should have been running off 12v with engine running) or that it was frozen on arrival at the aire but gradually defrosted as you tried to make the fridge run on 12v with engine off which it is not designed to do.

 

If we are parked up for a short while, the frozen food seems to remain frozen even with the fridge switched off. Iff we are leaving the van for the day then i would put it to run off gas.

[lennyhb]

Derek Uzzell - 2013-12-16 1:51 PM

 

In practice, any right-thinking motorhome manufacturer will have wired up the fridge in such a way that it cannot operate on 12V unless the vehicle's engine is running. Then - even if the motorhome owner deliberately selects 12V operation when the vehicle's motor is stopped - the fridge will not operate and the battery will not be discharged.

 

Unfortunately normal practice these days when an AES fridge is fitted is when "Auto" is selected the fridge will run off the habitation battery if there is no gas or mains when the engine is not running. I believe this is done to stop the igniter constantly trying to light the gas when there is no gas present.

Elektroblock chargers for example have two 12v outputs for the fridge one from the alternator and one via a fuse in the panel from the habitation battery. In my van the fuse is not fitted so the fridge works the old-fashioned way and does not flatten my leisure battery.

 

Getting back to Carolyn's question when stopping on a Aire or in a car park for more than an hour or two we always leave the fridge running on gas which is what I believe most people do.

[Derek Uzzell]

snowie - 2013-12-16 4:47 PM

 

Iain Strachan - 2013-12-16 3:57 PM

 

............... but I am very surprised that anyone should try and run a fridge freezer of that size off 12v. for any time.

 

Sounds to me like either a very poor or handover or a simple case of "Read the Manuals"!!

Easy mistake to make I feel. 12V operation of an absorption fridge in transit is a weak area, never very satisfactory in our experience.

regards

alan b

 

That used to be true but, from my own experience, no longer is.

 

My Hobby has a 150litre Dometic fridge-freezer and, before driving from home to the ferry at Portsmouth (130 miles - about 2.5 hours) I never bother to pre-cool the appliance. Despite this lack of pre-cooling, with the fridge operating on 12V during the journey, the temperature inside the appliance will have dropped radically by the time Portsmouth is reached.

 

It also used to be the case that there was no temperature-control when an absorption fridge was operating on 12V. That's changed too.

 

Elddis's Handbook is odd. Pages 9-11 to 9-13 are dedicated to Dometic's 122litre RM8555 appliance (only fitted to the Aspire 205), while Pages 9-14 to 9-16 relate to the 189litre RML8555 unit fitted to the rest of the Aspire range. But the advice in the two sets of 3 Pages is the same. As both appliances have the same AES (automatic energy selection) functionality and really differ only in their capacity, it's hard to see why there should be any need to have two identical sets of instructions.

 

How these appliances operate is fairly clearly described in the Handbook (essentially copied from Dometic's own Operating Instructions), but only if one already has some familiarity with AES fridges. Advice is given that "Manual operation is possible at any time", but there are no caveats about operational limitations if one chooses to do this.

[Derek Uzzell]

lennyhb - 2013-12-16 6:00 PM

 

Unfortunately normal practice these days when an AES fridge is fitted is when "Auto" is selected the fridge will run off the habitation battery if there is no gas or mains when the engine is not running. I believe this is done to stop the igniter constantly trying to light the gas when there is no gas present.

 

I'm not in a position to argue with your statement about normal practice, but the Elddis handbook says that, if a suitably powerful 12V solar system is available, that will be the priority choice when automatic operation has been selected. if there's no solar input "...The 12V operation is otherwise only effective while the engine is running..."

[lennyhb]

Derek Uzzell - 2013-12-16 6:49 PM

 

lennyhb - 2013-12-16 6:00 PM

 

Unfortunately normal practice these days when an AES fridge is fitted is when "Auto" is selected the fridge will run off the habitation battery if there is no gas or mains when the engine is not running. I believe this is done to stop the igniter constantly trying to light the gas when there is no gas present.

 

I'm not in a position to argue with your statement about normal practice, but the Elddis handbook says that, if a suitably powerful 12V solar system is available, that will be the priority choice when automatic operation has been selected. if there's no solar input "...The 12V operation is otherwise only effective while the engine is running..."

 

Hymer & other German manufacturers have been wiring AES fridges this way since about 2008.

Just been looking at the Dometic installation & user instructions for an AES fridge. They state the permanent 12v supply & 12v heating element should not be wired together in caravans (giving the impression this does not apply to Motorhomes), also there is an additional connection for when a solar panel is used.

 

Quote from user instructions:-

"12V- Operation (DC) The refrigerator should only be used while the motor is running, otherwise the on-board-battery would be discharged within a few hours!"

 

Also the Priority order on AES is:

 

1) Solar (12v dc)

2) 230v AC

3) 12v DC

4) Liquid gas

 

No wonder the poor user is confused, I'll stick to running mine on manual :D

[flicka]

I wonder if Carol had switched OFF at the Control Panel ?

Would that interrupt the AES function, even if the gas was turned on. ?

[lennyhb]

The control panel should not have any effect if the fridge has been wired correctly, the feed for the fridge electronics should be permanently live.

[Carolmonkey]

Thank you all for your help, we were obviously novices at using a motorhome we naively thought the fridge would keep running from the leisure battery, so in effect the fridge was actually switched off from say mid afternoon until whenever we arrived at a site the following day, no wonder i had lots of thawed out food. Another lesson to be learned.

[Mel B]

Hi Carol, if it's any consolation we did the same thing the first time we stopped for the day in our 'new to us' coachbuilt motorhome many moons ago ... at the time there weren't these wonderful forums to ask questions on so we had to try to find out the problem ourselves which was a bit difficult as we didn't have a user manual ... but we sussed it out in the end! :D

 

Now you do know about the water boiler automatic drop valve don't you ... ? :-S

[Carolmonkey]

What's the water boiler drop valve, or are you winding me up. Plain english please!!!

[Derek Uzzell]

lennyhb - 2013-12-16 7:54 PM

 

Derek Uzzell - 2013-12-16 6:49 PM

 

lennyhb - 2013-12-16 6:00 PM

 

Unfortunately normal practice these days when an AES fridge is fitted is when "Auto" is selected the fridge will run off the habitation battery if there is no gas or mains when the engine is not running. I believe this is done to stop the igniter constantly trying to light the gas when there is no gas present.

 

I'm not in a position to argue with your statement about normal practice, but the Elddis handbook says that, if a suitably powerful 12V solar system is available, that will be the priority choice when automatic operation has been selected. if there's no solar input "...The 12V operation is otherwise only effective while the engine is running..."

 

Hymer & other German manufacturers have been wiring AES fridges this way since about 2008.

Just been looking at the Dometic installation & user instructions for an AES fridge. They state the permanent 12v supply & 12v heating element should not be wired together in caravans (giving the impression this does not apply to Motorhomes), also there is an additional connection for when a solar panel is used.

 

Quote from user instructions:-

"12V- Operation (DC) The refrigerator should only be used while the motor is running, otherwise the on-board-battery would be discharged within a few hours!"

 

Also the Priority order on AES is:

 

1) Solar (12v dc)

2) 230v AC

3) 12v DC

4) Liquid gas

 

No wonder the poor user is confused, I'll stick to running mine on manual :D

 

From reading the Dometic installation Instructions for a RML8555 appliance like Carol's, it would seem to be practicable (by choosing not to to wire the unit as Dometic advises) to produce a situation where, while operating in Automatic mode, if no solar 12V, 230V AC, 12V DC (from the motorhome's alternator), or gas-supply is available, the fridge might switch back to cooling using a leisure-battery's 12V DC supply. However, this would conflict with Dometic's recommended practice.

 

As I said above, the normal (and logical) expectation should be that the fridge should not attempt to cool via 12V unless the motorhome's engine is running and its alternator is charging the leisure-battery.

 

Dometic's installation instructions say

 

"In >Automatic Mode< the AES electronic system automatically selects the most efficient energy supply. In automatic mode the electronic system uses the D+ signal (dynamo +) of the alternator to detect 12V DC. 12V DC operation is selected only while the engine is running in order to prevent battery discharge. "

 

You've said "Hymer & other German manufacturers have been wiring AES fridges this way since about 2008." I'm going to ask you how you know this to be so, as it would involve a knowledge of standard practice throughout the whole German motorhome industry. That's a lot of knowledge...

 

I might accept that Hymer have chosen to do this and you know this because you own a Hymer motorhome, but how do know that it's standard German practice? If I told you that Burstner, Dethleffs, Eura Mobil and Knaus don't do this, could you confidently assure me that's wrong? Besides which, even if it were "normal practice" in Germany to wire an AES fridge as you've described, that doesn't automatically mean it will be normal practice elsewhere, or that Elddis will have done it.

 

To explain why normal practice nowadays is to wire an AES fridge so that, if no alternative power source is available, it will cool on 12V from the leisure-battery you've said "I believe this is done to stop the igniter constantly trying to light the gas when there is no gas present."

 

The snag with that explanation is that the igniter does not constantly try to light the gas when no gas is available. For a Dometic 8-Series AES fridge in Automatic mode, if the gas supply runs out, or the gas will not relight, the gas ignition system will operate, with the igniter 'firing' for quite a few seconds. If this 1st ignition attempt to initiate gas operation fails, there will be a delay of 25 seconds after which the ignition system will operate for a 2nd time. If this 2nd attempt also fails to initiate gas operation, a 3rd attempt will not be made and the fridge will go into fault mode. So there's no question of damaging the igniter as, after two 'goes', it protects itself by shutting off when gas operation cannot be initiated.

 

I can find nothing in Dometic's instruction documents to suggest that an AES fridge should revert to 12V cooling using a leisure battery if gas operation fails.

 

The part of the Operating Instructions's trouble-shooting section that deals with a fridge failing to cool during 12V operation lists one of the possible causes as "Engine not running". The logical conclusion, then, is that Dometic expects a fridge to be operable using a 12V supply if a motorhome's engine is running, but not be operable if the engine is stopped.

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

Carolmonkey - 2013-12-16 10:58 PM

 

What's the water boiler drop valve, or are you winding me up. Plain english please!!!

 

Your Aspire has probably not got a "water boiler automatic drop valve".

 

When a motorhome has a Truma combination air/water heating system, it's normal nowadays for a specialised "Frostcontrol" drain-valve to be fitted that will automatically open in very cold weather to drain water from the heater and prevent it being frost-damaged. However (according to the Elddis literature) the Aspire range has an ALDE 'wet' heating system, not a Truma one..

 

The Elddis Aspire handbook includes the following section:

 

"Draining Down Your Water System

 

(i) It is essential that you drain down your motorhome water system when it is not in use. This is most important during winter months to protect against frost damage

(ii) Disconnect the water pump and switch off power supply.

(iii) Open the safety drain valve on the water heater located next to the water heater.

(iv) Open all taps and remove all plugs from sinks and showers. Lever operated taps should have the lever put into the up and central position.

(v) Open both the blue and grey drain outlets on the outside of your motorhome.

(vi) Adjust the level of the motorhome to ensure that the drain outlet is at the lowest point of the motorhome.

After 30 minutes level the motorhome and prepare it for storage if necessary."

 

You'll note the "(iii) Open the safety drain valve on the water heater located next to the water heater."

 

It's likely that "the safety drain valve" mentioned in (iii) will be a simple manually-operated lever-valve like this

 

http://www.alde.co.uk/itemdetails.php?itemId=13

 

Although it would be practicable, I'm near certain Elddis will NOT have fitted a "Frostcontrol" drain-valve to your motorhome, as much as anything because - if they had - there would need to be instructions in your Aspire handbook on how to operate it. But, just in case, there's a photo of a "Frostcontrol" drain-valve here:

 

http://www.campingpriser.dk/shop/truma-frost-control-5133p.html

 

As you'll see, it's quite different from the manually-operated valve, so it should be easy for you to identify which you have.

[Tony Jones]

Carolmonkey - 2013-12-16 10:58 PM

 

What's the water boiler drop valve, or are you winding me up. Plain english please!!!

 

There's a tap somewhere to enable you to drain the water heater to avoid frost damage. I believe on some vans this opens automatically when the temperature drops dangerously.

[lennyhb]

Derek most vans with an Elektroblock are likely to be wired the way I suggest as the Elektroblocks have a 20amp fused output the fuse labelled "fridge" and in the wiring diagram marked as - AES Fridge this is a feed from the habitation battery. As Hymer wire their vans this way and produce more vans than anyone else in Germany even if it was only Hymer wiring them this way it would still be a fair chunk of the market.

My 7 series fridge continually tries to light when on gas when no gas is present, sounds like they have made improvements in the 8 series.

[Derek Uzzell]

lennyhb - 2013-12-17 10:30 AM

 

Derek most vans with an Elektroblock are likely to be wired the way I suggest as the Elektroblocks have a 20amp fused output the fuse labelled "fridge" and in the wiring diagram marked as - AES Fridge this is a feed from the habitation battery. As Hymer wire their vans this way and produce more vans than anyone else in Germany even if it was only Hymer wiring them this way it would still be a fair chunk of the market.

My 7 series fridge continually tries to light when on gas when no gas is present, sounds like they have made improvements in the 8 series.

 

My Hobby also has a Dometic 7-Series appliance - a non-AES RM-7605L fridge-freezer. If I select gas-operation and there's air in the system or, for some reason or other, the gas won't automatically relight as it should, the gas-igniter will run for quite a while (30 seconds?) but will eventually switch off.

 

My fridge-freezer went through a period where gas relighting was unreliable. Having left the motorhome with the appliance running on gas, on returning to it I'd occasionally find the gas-operation yellow LED flashing to indicate a fault. Similarly, I'd sometimes wake up in the night and notice the LED flashing.

 

When this first happened, I was naturallly concerned that, if the gas failed to relight, the igniter would run continuously, so I checked whether this would be the case and confirmed that, although the yellow LED would continue to flash indefinitely, the igniter would, after a time, stop 'firing'.

[avensis]

Our adria coral 680 on a 62 plate , will keep the frozen food frozen for about 6 hrs without any energy . This will depend on the air temperature, if sunny and warm the AES system will select gas supply. Todate we have had no problems , but the Dometic fridge unit has had two major issues which were covered by warranty. (!)

[lennyhb]

Derek Uzzell - 2013-12-17 6:08 PM

 

lennyhb - 2013-12-17 10:30 AM

 

Derek most vans with an Elektroblock are likely to be wired the way I suggest as the Elektroblocks have a 20amp fused output the fuse labelled "fridge" and in the wiring diagram marked as - AES Fridge this is a feed from the habitation battery. As Hymer wire their vans this way and produce more vans than anyone else in Germany even if it was only Hymer wiring them this way it would still be a fair chunk of the market.

My 7 series fridge continually tries to light when on gas when no gas is present, sounds like they have made improvements in the 8 series.

 

My Hobby also has a Dometic 7-Series appliance - a non-AES RM-7605L fridge-freezer. If I select gas-operation and there's air in the system or, for some reason or other, the gas won't automatically relight as it should, the gas-igniter will run for quite a while (30 seconds?) but will eventually switch off.

 

My fridge-freezer went through a period where gas relighting was unreliable. Having left the motorhome with the appliance running on gas, on returning to it I'd occasionally find the gas-operation yellow LED flashing to indicate a fault. Similarly, I'd sometimes wake up in the night and notice the LED flashing.

 

When this first happened, I was naturallly concerned that, if the gas failed to relight, the igniter would run continuously, so I checked whether this would be the case and confirmed that, although the yellow LED would continue to flash indefinitely, the igniter would, after a time, stop 'firing'.

 

My 7 - Series AES fridge continually tries to light if no gas, has done it from new. My friends identical van built the same month he kept flattering his leisure battery his van had the fuse fitted & Hymer confirmed it is supposed to run off the habitation battery. Not sure if the fuse was left out on my van by accident but it sure is staying out.

[Derek Uzzell]

lennyhb - 2013-12-17 8:58 PM

 

My 7 - Series AES fridge continually tries to light if no gas, has done it from new. My friends identical van built the same month he kept flattering his leisure battery his van had the fuse fitted & Hymer confirmed it is supposed to run off the habitation battery. Not sure if the fuse was left out on my van by accident but it sure is staying out.

 

Fair enough.

 

Is there anything in your Hymer documentation (not just a wiring diagram reference) that says this will happen and warns of the consequences?

 

Plainly you would prefer to have the gas-igniter operating continuously if the gas runs out (or the fridge's gas-burner fails to relight) than to have the fridge begin to discharge the leisure-battery. I would have thought other people would also prefer that.

 

Commonsense would suggest that a) a timer should cause the gas-igniter to stop operating after a fixed period if gas-ignition fails (as my fridge's igniter evidently does), b) the fridge should logically not seek to cool from the leisure-battery if gas operation proves impossible and c) there ought to be clear advice (either in Dometic's manuals or the motorhome manufacturers') about this.

[lennyhb]

Stupid situation I agree.

 

Quote from Dometic instructions:-

 

"12V- Operation (DC) The refrigerator should only be used while the motor is running, otherwise the on-board-battery would be discharged within a few hours!"

 

Edit:

I also wonder if an AES fridge is fitted they expect a Truma Duo CS to be fitted and the gas permanently on.

[Brian Kirby]

Won't help, I guess, but to add to the mix. Ours is a Thetford AES. If the gas is off at the cylinder (e.g. for ferry/tunnel), and the engine is stopped, after a short while it goes into alarm mode, and can only be pacified by turning it off. So, no automatic bridge to the leisure battery on ours.

 

The remaining problem is that as AES fridges remove the need to "manage" energy supply to the fridge, on has to remember to stop and turn the fridge back on post disembarkation to reinstate the 12V supply.

 

Further mode required, "Ferry mode", which, when selected, suppresses alarm mode until the engine is re-started - or is all this automation merely making me lazy? :-)