colin weston Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 Had a bit of a shock the other day when I noticed one of my rear tyres was nearly flat. I assumed that I had a slow puncture. The pressure was down to 10 psi so I got my foot pump out and got the pressure up to 50 psi with a lot of effort (normal pressure for the rear tyres is 65 psi). Releasing the pump attachment from the valve I could hear a leak in the vicinity of the valve and found that air was leaking from the rubber near the base of the valve. By wedging a piece of wood between the valve and the rim I was able to stop the leak and drove to my local Kwikfit which is only a few hundred yards away. They fitted a new valve and all is OK. The valve is one of the original fitments as are the tyres which will be coming up to 7 years old this summer. All the other valves appear to be OK although I would obviously have these changed when new tyres are fitted. The valve gives the appearance of impact damage. Never experienced such a failure before. Cause? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 Can't be certain, and am not familiar with all variants of HP snap-in valves, but that doesn't look like the right kind of valve to me. The brass core should go right down through the centre of the valve, and the ones I've seen are then belled out, a bit like a trumpet, at the rear, to ensure the inner seal is held firmly against the inside surface of the rim. Is it off an alloy wheel, BTW? Derek will know better, but that looks awfully like a standard snap-in valve that should never have been fitted to a motorhome rim. Have you checked the other valves to see if they are the same type? Also, do you know what KwikFit actually fitted? I have reservations over the knowledge level of some tyre fitters when it comes to correctly matching valves to the working tyre pressures of motorhomes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
globebuster Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 Anything running over 50 psi ought to have a metal valve IMO Had a similar failure a couple of summers ago in my old Hymercamp - as it was always a bit of a wallowing beast [and not much capable of over 50mph] it wasn't until I got back to the house that I noticed it 8-) The moral is - sometimes a steady old plodder is safer in certain situations! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 Looks like an ordinary rubber 'car-type' snap-in valve to me, designed for a maximum inflation pressure of 4.5bar (65psi). For a motorhome like an Autocruise Starburst I'd expect metal bolt-in valves normally to have been factory-fitted if the vehicle were Fiat-based. But, as Colin's motorhome uses a Peugeot Boxer chassis, who knows? Some motorhomes will have high-pressure snap-in tyre valves as standard, but it's better in my view if they have bolt-in valves because a) these will tolerate a very high pressure and b) it minimises the chances of a low-pressure valve being fitted when a tyre is changed. This earlier thread may be helpful http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/High-Pressure-Tyre-Valves/26272/ Probably the best snap-in high-pressure valve available nowadays is the "Alligator" product advertised here http://tinyurl.com/nq5hzsv but don't expect KwikFit (or any other UK tyre fitter) to keep them in stock. Tyre valves don't last forever and it's likely that a fair number of catastrophic tyre 'failures' are actually due to the valve failing, pressure being lost and the tyre being destroyed as a result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 colin weston - 2014-01-11 12:26 PM Had a bit of a shock the other day when I noticed one of my rear tyres was nearly flat. I assumed that I had a slow puncture. The pressure was down to 10 psi so I got my foot pump out and got the pressure up to 50 psi with a lot of effort (normal pressure for the rear tyres is 65 psi). Releasing the pump attachment from the valve I could hear a leak in the vicinity of the valve and found that air was leaking from the rubber near the base of the valve. By wedging a piece of wood between the valve and the rim I was able to stop the leak and drove to my local Kwikfit which is only a few hundred yards away. They fitted a new valve and all is OK. The valve is one of the original fitments as are the tyres which will be coming up to 7 years old this summer. All the other valves appear to be OK although I would obviously have these changed when new tyres are fitted. The valve gives the appearance of impact damage. Never experienced such a failure before. Cause? Hi Colin I have had precisely the same problem in the last couple of days. My van had been standing idle for about 6 days when I noticed that one tyre was almost flat. I pumped it up with a compressor and heard air hissing out from around the valve. ( I managed to wedge a stone alongside the valve to stop it leaking ). Further examination, once the wheel was removed showed that the valve has split on one side - so it's not the 'fitting' that failed - for some reason it has split. The valve is only about three years old so I'd be surprised if it has perished. So - cause currently unknown. ;-) p.s. looks like yours has split in a similar place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 malc d - 2014-01-11 3:48 PM..................So - cause currently unknown. ;-) p.s. looks like yours has split in a similar place. I think the cause probably is known Malc. If your valve is the same type as Colin's, my money is on it being the wrong valve for the pressures being used. Check the others and, if they are all the same type, get the lot changed for HP snap-in, or preferably clamp-in, types. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyishuk Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 Ours is a 3.5 ton m/home and has metal valves on steel wheels. Pressures at 62 and 70 PSI running on Michelin Camping Tyres How relevant that is to your m/home I don't know Rgds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matrix Meanderer Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 Interesting discussion. Hope you don't mind if I piggy back on this thread to share a similar problem that I have just had to deal with. My Fiat Ducato rear offside alloy tyre suddenly deflated from 5.5 bar to 3.5 bar over about a week. I suspected a slow puncture so had my local Fiat agent check the wheel and tyre. The result was rather alarming. The alloy wheel had corroded through adjacent to the steel valve and was leaking air through the corrosion. This showed up in clearly the water tank test. The wheel is 30 months old and has had a steel valve from new as the tyre pressures are 5 bar front and 5.5. bar rear. Immediate solution (as we were leaving for Spain in two days time) was to fit an immediately, available from dealer stock, steel wheel. So were able to get away and are now in mid France en route to Spain. So has anyone else experienced or heard of this type of corrosion? I should add that the tyre has had Fiat Approved "Tyreseal" inside it for about 24 months. I am persuing Fiat with a claim but don't hold out much hope of any warranty payment/replacement from Fiat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retread24800 Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 Had exactly the same experience last year, rubber valve stem fractured, Thank you whoever that it wasn't while we were travelling! I took the wheel to our (French) tyre fitter for a replacement who point blank refused to refit on a like for like basis explaining that the valve was only suitable for a car and fitted a screw in metal valve stem in its place, I have since had the other four replaced. Cannot blame shoddy British workmanship for this the last tyre change was in Germany ....... so much for 'vorsprung durch technik' :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teflon2 Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 Matrix Meanderer - 2014-01-11 6:10 PM Interesting discussion. Hope you don't mind if I piggy back on this thread to share a similar problem that I have just had to deal with. My Fiat Ducato rear offside alloy tyre suddenly deflated from 5.5 bar to 3.5 bar over about a week. I suspected a slow puncture so had my local Fiat agent check the wheel and tyre. The result was rather alarming. The alloy wheel had corroded through adjacent to the steel valve and was leaking air through the corrosion. This showed up in clearly the water tank test. The wheel is 30 months old and has had a steel valve from new as the tyre pressures are 5 bar front and 5.5. bar rear. Immediate solution (as we were leaving for Spain in two days time) was to fit an immediately, available from dealer stock, steel wheel. So were able to get away and are now in mid France en route to Spain. So has anyone else experienced or heard of this type of corrosion? I should add that the tyre has had Fiat Approved "Tyreseal" inside it for about 24 months. I am persuing Fiat with a claim but don't hold out much hope of any warranty payment/replacement from Fiat. You will probably find that the the approved tyreseal is only approved for steel wheels as some sealants are corrosive to alloy wheels. John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 Matrix Meanderer Some metal clamp-in tyre valves have a plastic washer that fits between the wheel's surface and the base of the 'nut' that screws down the valve-stem and holds the valve in the rim. I've always understood that the purpose of this washer was to prevent the metal nut damaging an alloy wheel's surface potentially leading to corrosion. (Presumably your Adria's wheels are genuine Fiat parts?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigal Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 This happened to us a couple of years ago after I had driven over an unseen sunken drain at the roadside whilst turning in a narrow road. The drain was about four inches below the road surface. I had all the tyre valves changed to the metal ones when we returned home from our trip to Scotland. :-S B-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matrix Meanderer Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 Derek Uzzell - 2014-01-11 6:52 PM Matrix Meanderer Some metal clamp-in tyre valves have a plastic washer that fits between the wheel's surface and the base of the 'nut' that screws down the valve-stem and holds the valve in the rim. I've always understood that the purpose of this washer was to prevent the metal nut damaging an alloy wheel's surface potentially leading to corrosion. (Presumably your Adria's wheels are genuine Fiat parts?) Thanks Derek. Yes they are genuine Adria parts factory fitted. Will be checking that the Tyreseal product is ot the culprit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 I Googled " metal tyre valves " to find out a bit more info and came across several warnings that if you do use metal valves you should be aware of a possible problem with using metal dust caps on them. It seems that they have been known to corrode and become difficult, if not impossible, to unscrew. Sometimes, it seems, valves have snapped off in the process - so it's recommended that they are ' lubricated ' from time to time. Or use plastic caps. I have no experience of it myself but it seems to be a good idea to be aware of the possibility. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
globebuster Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 Metal dust caps will affect rubber valves in the same way! - and invariably the corrosion is caused by dis-similar metals. Only once have I experienced metal dust caps - and removal entailed trashing the [rubber] valve in the process! As Malc D says - keep them 'lubed' if you're going to use them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 As globebuster says, the problem arises when dissimilar metals are used for the cap and valve-stem. Corrosion problems with specialised tyre-pressure monitoring system sensor-valves have also been reported (example here) http://www.tirereview.com/article/113431/more_field_reports_on_corroded_tpms_sensors.aspx If a metal clamp-in valve is made by a reputable manufacturer (eg. Schrader or Alligator), its cap will be suitable for its stem. Although people commonly talk about 'steel' valves, the metal components will usually be made of plated brass, as evidenced from this Alligator webpage if you click on the "Art. No." entries. http://www.alligator-ventilfabrik.de/index.php?Passenger_car_metal_valves_for_valve_hole_diameter2 If you are of the boy-racer persuasion and decide to fit nifty shiny valve-caps from the "Bling-is-Me" catalogue, you might find the caps 'bond' to the valve stems. But, if you obtain a metal clamp-in valve made by a reputable manufacturer, cap-to-stem corrosion shouldn't be an issue. (And if tyre pressures are checked fairly regularly, the cap shouldn't have time to bond to the stem!) It also needs saying that a valve-cap should be able to prevent air escaping from the valve-stem at the maximum pressure the valve is designed to handle, and this may be 200psi for a clamp-in valve. If you fit plastic valve-caps intended for snap-in 'car' tyre valves that have a 65psi design-pressure maximum to a clamp-in valve that's handling, say, 80psi on a motorhome, you risk the cap leaking or splitting in the (admittedly unlikely) event that the tyre-valve's core fails. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 Matrix Meanderer - 2014-01-12 8:16 AM Derek Uzzell - 2014-01-11 6:52 PM Matrix Meanderer Some metal clamp-in tyre valves have a plastic washer that fits between the wheel's surface and the base of the 'nut' that screws down the valve-stem and holds the valve in the rim. I've always understood that the purpose of this washer was to prevent the metal nut damaging an alloy wheel's surface potentially leading to corrosion. (Presumably your Adria's wheels are genuine Fiat parts?) Thanks Derek. Yes they are genuine Adria parts factory fitted. Will be checking that the Tyreseal product is ot the culprit. Confused here!! :-) Derek's question was, in terms, "are they genuine Fiat parts?" This (logically) is because you initially said you were claiming for the new wheel from Fiat. You answer "yes" above, but then said they were genuine Adria parts (implying the answer should have been "no"). If the wheels were OEM from Fiat, a warranty claim against Fiat would be appropriate. If the wheels are OEM from Adria, a claim against Adria would be appropriate. However, of somewhat greater concern to me is that the same valves, fitted in the same way, have presumably been fitted to the other three alloy wheels, which may well be exhibiting the same degree of corrosion. Was this checked and eliminated when the corrosion was identified? If not, as you are up and running, I would suggest doing so at the earliest opportunity. I also agree about the tyre-seal: some is not suitable for use with alloy wheels so if the alloys were an Adria fit item, Fiat's endorsement of the product may well have been only in relationship to steel wheels. If so, and Adria fitted the wheels, I doubt they will cough up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin weston Posted January 13, 2014 Author Share Posted January 13, 2014 Thanks for your feedback. My wheels are the standard steel fitments and the tyres (Michelin 225/70 15C Agilis) and valves are all original. Tyre pressures are 59 psi front and 65 psi rear and the decal in the door shut confirms these pressures. The tyres are rated to a maximum pressure of 65 psi so the valves are presumably rated to the same maximum pressure. In accordance with normal engineering practice one would assume that a tyre valve, being safety critical, would have a large safety factor. Having looked again at the other valves they are not all identical in the shape of the rubber moulding. As a matter of interest the failed valve has a letter P moulded in near the valve cap end and on the end that is inside the wheel there are the letters and numbers: ITALY TR413 and 188, the latter maybe a date code? PS Just had a search and a TR413 valve is rated at 65 psi. Also found some info that high temperatures can cause the stem to crack? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahamw Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 colin weston - 2014-01-13 1:38 PM PS Just had a search and a TR413 valve is rated at 65 psi. Also found some info that high temperatures can cause the stem to crack? Have a TyrePal system installed on van and note with interest the difference in tyre pressures between cold and hot running. Have the pressures set the same as yours with 59psi on the front and 65psi on the rear. Rear tyres when warm are usually showing a reading of around 72/73psi. F ront tyres register a slightly higher pro-rata increase presumably because they are the driven wheels and handle different forces on cornering hence generating more heat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 This is a subject that has always puzzled me. When we received our first X250 vans (all Maxi vehicles) in 2007 they were all fitted with bolt through metal valves. We wanted to build up some spare wheels, so enquired about the valves at our Fiat dealer. They were not available from Fiat. I eventually found some and obsessively built the spare wheels to the same specification as Fiat had done; under the impression that this was required. The next lot of vans in 2008 also came with the metal valves. The 2009 vans had a different type of valve. They had a brass end and thread and continued in a solid piece of brass until the point there they passed through the wheel rim and this was rubber. They were pretty stiff, so I assumed that the brass core went all the way through. No worries there. The 2010, 2011 and 2013 vans have been delivered with what appeared to be standard rubber valves. This has been confirmed when we have replaced tyres; they do not have a metal core running through them. These are the same valves ( albeit a little longer) as you would have fitted to a passenger car. I queried this with Fiat and quoted the maximum pressure for a rubber valve as being 65psi. I also stated that the pressure when the tyre is warm could be as high as 75psi. They said (after some consultation) that it would be fine since the maximum recommended pressure for our vehicles in fully loaded condition was 65psi and that the valve manufacturers build in an allowance above that for hot tyres. The conversation deteriorated somewhat after I mentioned that the maximum pressure for our Maxi vans with 215 65 16 tyres was actually 5 bar which equals 72.5 psi and that the factory fitted tyres had a maximum inflation pressure of 80psi. They just were not interested at all. Anyway; that argument aside; we have had no problems with any valves of any type on any of our vans. They are hammered up and down the roads of the UK for 50,000 miles a year and are not well treated at times. We inflate the tyres to 65psi at the rear and 60psi at the front so it should not be a problem. If you need to inflate your tyres beyond this you should at the very least have metal cored valves fitted and ideally the bolt through variety. Incidentally; the corrosion on the wheel rims or valves that occurs within the tyre is caused by condensation. You can't do anything about that except to perhaps paint some corrosion inhibiting primer over any metal parts and the hole in the rim before fitting the tyre. Finally; metal valve caps should be banned. They have the capability to ruin your day by getting stuck and if they can be removed at all will probably get stolen by some tyke who wants them for his push bike or Citroen Saxo. Not worth the grief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billggski Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 A timely topic as I have just swapped my steel wheels for alloys, and guess what? The fitters put rubber valves in, which I only noticed when I got home. Doh!!! So I rang them up and asked why, they replied that steel valves wouldn't fit properly and cause no end of problems, I rang the manufacturers, who said steel valves are fine, called in at Cara motorhomes and Towtal, both nearby, and MH's with similar wheels have rubber valves! They are happy with them. I'm not confident with the rubber ones and will investigate with my mate's garage that build and race trucks. 1000 bhp in a truck! Did you see him on "speed" with Guy Martin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 euroserv - 2014-01-13 4:23 PM ...The 2009 vans had a different type of valve. They had a brass end and thread and continued in a solid piece of brass until the point there they passed through the wheel rim and this was rubber. They were pretty stiff, so I assumed that the brass core went all the way through. No worries there... Your assumption about the brass stem may have been misplaced. Although (to the best of my knowledge) all snap-in high-pressure tyre valves will have part of their metal stem exposed as in this TR600 example below http://recstuff.com/tr-600-high-pressure-valve-stem-0-to-100-psi.aspx it is possible to obtain 'glamour' car tyre valves that look visually similar but are not designed for high-pressure applications. The TR600 design of valve was fitted to large numbers of Ford Transit Mk 6 vehicles from 2000-2006 and gained notoriety for failure, with the rubber lower section splitting, becoming partially unbonded from the brass stem, or even having the stem detach completely from the rubber base. Having had TR600 tyre-valve stems unbond on both of my Transit-based motorhome's rear wheels, I had the opportunity to dissect the failed valves. They proved to be structurally little different from an ordinary 'car' (up to 65psi) valve with the brass stem not extending below the level of the wheel rim. The design of the rubber base was chunkier than an up-to-65psi valve, but that was basically it. Robinhood's posting of 18 January 2012 10:11 AM in this earlier thread http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/High-Pressure-Tyre-Valves/26272/ shows a TR600 valve (upper photo) and no sign will be seen of the central brass 'core'. The lower photo shows the valve Ford has chosen to factory-fit to Transit Mk 7s (2006-onwards) and the core can clearly be seen protruding through the rubber base. Snap-in tyre valves are cheap and are pulled into the wheel rim's valve-hole using a simple tool. It takes seconds and no great skill is involved. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SILVERLINE-TYRE-VALVE-PULLER-TYRE-VALVE-MOUNTING-TOOL-/200993987252 Clamp-in valves are more expensive, take longer to fit and care needs to be taken not to overtighten the hold-down 'nut'. It's hardly surprising then that the snap-in valve is much more popular with vehicle manufacturers and tyre fitters. I vividly remember overhearing a conversation at a local tyre-fitting firm where the boss instructed one of his fitters to send a large bag of snap-in valves back to the supplier because an unusually high percentage had (literally) snapped when they were being pulled into the wheel rim. It didn't fill me with confidence. There is a need to be aware that, although you might be buying a £100 tyre, there's a good chance the tyre-fitter will use a valve costing a few pence. (The types of tyre-valves used on heavy trucks will normally differ from those appropriate for motorhomes.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin weston Posted January 13, 2014 Author Share Posted January 13, 2014 I find Nick's comments interesting. Presumably with such a high annual mileage the tyres are changed in less than a year and new valves fitted? On this basis there is little chance of the valves suffering from the same age deterioration that many low mileage campervans might experience although heat might be more of a problem due to higher speeds. The more one delves into a subject the less one understands! Looking at the various designs of valve the one that appears to me to be the most foolproof is the one where the brass extends through the rim as this needs no particular skilled assembly technique. Just going on holiday to Spain tomorrow by plane. What valves to they fit to aircraft tyres?? Just a thought!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 colin weston - 2014-01-13 8:04 PM . What valves to they fit to aircraft tyres?? Just a thought!!!! Aircraft don't use tubeless tyres. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Although there have been instances of motorhomes being marketed with 'low-pressure' (65psi design-maximum) tyre valves and high (eg. 80psi) recommended tyre pressures, the issue normally rears its head at tyre replacement time. If a motorhome has appropriate metal clamp-in valves, those valves will cope with any inflation pressure an owner is likely to choose to use. When a tyre needs to be replaced, there's a good chance that the tyre-fitter won't replace that type of valve with a 'low-pressure' valve. If a motorhome has 'rubber' valves, those valves may or may not have been intended for inflation pressures over 65psi. When a tyre needs to be replaced, there's a high chance (at least in the UK) that the tyre-fitter will use a low-pressure valve even though the valve being replaced is a 'high-pressure' type. Colin mentions that the most logical and foolproof valve to fit to a motorhome would be a high-pressure (up to 100psi) snap-in valve where the stem extends right through the rubber base (eg. the type of valve specified by Ford for Mk 7 Transits). I wouldn't disagree, but this is not the type of snap-in valve normally stocked by UK tyre-fitting outlets. So, even if a vehicle's wheel has that type of high-pressure snap-in valve prior to tyre replacement, it quite likely will have a common-or-garden snap-in 65psi 'car' tyre-valve afterwards. It's certain there will be plenty of motorhome owners obliviously using 80psi tyre pressures with 65psi tyre-valves. While such valves may have a large inherent safety factor, and they may well last years without problems, they are still the 'wrong' valves. It's plain commonsense that high tyre inflation-pressures should be matched by high-pressure tyre valves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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