tonyfletcher Posted April 16, 2014 Share Posted April 16, 2014 Hi Everyone, I may have missed the post that can verify if Over-Run type A Frames will or will not become illegal in November this year. There are plenty of statistics being given but no real clear instructions. Please with respect reply only in line with my question and not the ethics. Kind Regards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stantheman Posted April 16, 2014 Share Posted April 16, 2014 Excuse my ignorance but can someone please explain what an Over-Run A-frame is. I like to keep up! Thicky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted April 16, 2014 Share Posted April 16, 2014 It has an hydraulic ram on the tow hitch which operates the brakes, when the towing vehicle brakes the trailer will still be traveling forward which will compress the ram which is linked to the braking system and it will apply the brakes on the trailer. The same system is used on caravans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stantheman Posted April 16, 2014 Share Posted April 16, 2014 Thanks Lenny. (I've never had a caravan. Got an A-frame but use a Brake-Buddy). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 The inertia-braking system used on caravans and (traditionally) on most car-towing A-frames is described in some detail here: http://caravanchronicles.com/guides/understanding-over-run-brake-systems/ This March 2014 thread (and the CaraTow link within it) http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/a-frame-law-change/34340/ may help Tony, but I don't think there's a black-or-white answer regarding A-frame 'illegality' until the question of retrospection has been pronounced on by the relevant UK authorities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyfletcher Posted April 17, 2014 Author Share Posted April 17, 2014 Thanks for the reply, I suppose a 'wait and see' policy is the best route then. It's quite ironic that the ruling is supposed to be official in November and yet Vosa cannot give a definitive answer. I feel sorry for the companies trying to sell their products. Cheers T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 It won't be retrospective anyway, so buy one now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted April 18, 2014 Share Posted April 18, 2014 Tony There's a (fairly) sensible discussion about this in this February 2014 Caravan Club thread http://www.caravanclub.co.uk/community/discussions/information,-technical-tips-advice/motorhomes/A-Frame-car-towing-and-changes-in-the-law/rt/708940/?p=0 There's also a long discussion here http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-144878-days0-orderasc-0.html As the forthcoming regulatory changes will impact on those UK companies that have historically marketed inertia-braked A-frames (eg. Towtal and Car-a-Tow), the logical place to seek advice on the effect of the changes would be to demand answers from those companies. The changes were advertised well in advance of the November 2014 deadline and continuing to claim that VOSA or the DforT can't advise is no excuse. If the A-frame manufacturers have been unable to obtain useful information from those authorities by now it's because the manufacturers have not been trying hard enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littladyelsie Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 Reason manufacturers cant supply new information is simple. THERE IS NO ALTERATION TO THE LEGISLATION IN 2014. We have this in writing from the dft (Department for Transport) and the VCA (vehicle certification agency). As soon as I can work out how, I will post both copies of these e-mails. Please, don't listen to gossip, contact the people who know, the manufacturers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 littladyelsie Wecome to the Out&AboutLive forums. Besides posting much the same advice on this other (March 2014) O&AL forum thread http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/a-frame-law-change/34340/#M424039 I notice that you involved yourself in the February 2014 Caravan Club forum discussion that I provided a link to in my 18 April 2014 8:53 AM posting on this thread. EU changes in the regulations related to trailer braking systems are scheduled for implementation later this year and received wisdom seems to be that those changes will impact on the type of A-frame fitted with an inertia-braking system (as normally employed on caravans) that has historically been marketed in the UK and that the majority of UK motorcaravanners use when towing a car on an A-frame. The UK manufacturers of such A-frames appeared to have accepted that the changes would outlaw the sale of new inertia-braked A-frames in the UK and some manufactuers had developed products with alternative braking systems. There is a long piece about this on the Car-A-Tow website http://www.caratow.com/legal.php but it's over a year old. If it has been concluded by the DfT and the VCA that the EU 2014 trailer-braking regulatory changes will not apply to A-frames with inertia-braking systems sold new in the UK, I'd expect this to have been stated clearly on the A-frame manufacturers' websites and for it to have been advertised immediately on the many motorhome forums that have been arguing about A-framing since Noah fitted wheels to his Ark. But neither of those things have happened. There has been speculation that the changes MIGHT be applied retrospectively and consequently affect the majority of UK A-framers, but this was probably never a serious risk. There was never any doubt that the 'legality' of A-framing as a PRACTICE in the UK would alter in 2014 as a result of the EU regulatory changes (though outlawing inertia-braked A-frames across the board would remove one of the technical grey-area arguments against its legality), so I'm not sure what your point is. I stand by my statement above about A-frame manufacturers not trying hard enough to obtain information from the relevant authorities and - perhaps more importantly - not making it absolutely clear to potential UK customers that the A-framing practice has negatives as well as positives, in particular regarding A-framing abroad. If the DfT and VCA have now provided firm advice that the 2014 EU trailer-related regulatory changes will have absolutely no effect on A-frame sales and/or usage in the UK, it will be important for the UK A-framing community to be made aware of this. Consequently, if you are able to post the e-mail information you have, it will be much appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 Derek Uzzell - 2014-06-04 6:10 PM if you are able to post the e-mail information you have, it will be much appreciated. if info is in an email as stated why cant he just cut and paste it... :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 JudgeMental - 2014-06-04 6:28 PM Derek Uzzell - 2014-06-04 6:10 PM if you are able to post the e-mail information you have, it will be much appreciated. if info is in an email as stated why cant he just cut and paste it... :-S I've no idea, it would seem to be a simple enough thing to do. According to the information provided on the Caravan Club forum, "littleladyelsie" is a "Caravanner from Derbyshire" and the user-profile for "littlelady elsie" for this forum gives that user's Real name as "janice payne". Her main comment in the Caravan Club forum discussion "A-Frame car towing and changes in the law" was "I would love to know where all this false information started. E-mail dated 13th February 2014 from Fran Simpson at the Department for Transport starts 'There are no plans to change legislation in 2014', also from Simon Naughton, principal engineer at the VCA (same date) 'the fact sheet as issued by the Department for Transport on November 2012 still stands as a current document Mischief making by someone, but the problem is that once something gets posted or talked about it becomes FACT without reference to the truth, I'm afraid. If anyone wants to see these documents, just message me and I will forward them" I did wonder who the "we" was meant to indicate in Janice's sentence "WE have this in writing..." in her posting above, but I see from this Facebook entry https://www.facebook.com/TowingaframesLtd?ref=stream&filter=2 that she has a business connection to a UK company that markets A-frames. http://www.towingaframes.co.uk/index.php?cid=1 Incidentally, towingaframes "Blog and Latest News" section claims that the UK A-frame specialist TOWtal went into liquidation on 29 April 2014, something I was not aware of. (The TOWtal website still seems to be operating normally.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 Derek, I am away in Scotland, towing my Toyota Yaris with a 'Car-a-Tow' inertia braked 'A-Frame', it is my first experience of doing so.All i can say is, why didn't I do it years ago ? the van tows the car effortlessly (it has the 150bhp 2.3 Fiat engine) the A-frame stows away,in it's sportbag under the van,out of the way. No scary encounters with 'white van man' as I experienced last year, in Cornwall,getting a door mirror damaged in the process. So, I am very happy with the system. I still have coversations with any other ' Car towing' motorhomers I meet, what type of A-frame, experiences etc., and there are quite a lot of them, they outnumber the 'trailer towers' by at least 5 to 1 (in MY experience). One i spoke to yesterday confirmed that ' Towtal' had gone bust, he had ordered a Towbar/ A-frame combo, and was telephoned by them and told that they could not complete His order 4 weeks ago, he had his fitted to his Swift by Car-a-tow, a new model called a 'Euro' ? it was still an Inertia Brake, on an 'Alko' A-frame set up, but fitted 'Eye' bolts on the front of the car instead of a 'Pull bar' as on mine, but date stamped, produced on the 5/2014. So as far as Car-a-tow are concerned they are STILL legal. As for how long ? who knows. Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 Rayjsj - 2014-06-05 1:07 PM ...So as far as Car-a-tow are concerned they are STILL legal. As for how long ? who knows. Ray As the EU regulatory changes relating to trailer inertia-braking systems do not take effect until November 2014, they will have no effect on current UK legality regarding the sale or usage of an A-frame employing that type of braking system. The e-mails mentioned by littladyelsie above may (hopefully) shed light on the UK position after November 2014. There's also related information on the Car-A-Tow website http://www.caratow.com/ that can be accessed by clicking on "Click For More Details" I have attached the file (it's in Word format)dftfeb.docx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 And an interesting comment below the email added by Car-A-Tow.... "WHAT A SHAME THAT SO MANY PEOPLE HAVE SPENT A LOT OF MONEY ON ELECTRONIC BRAKING SYSTEMS... THAT NOW APPEAR TO BE UNNECESSARY. TO ADD INSULT TO INJURY VOSA HAVE STATED THAT ANY INDIRECT BRAKING SYSTEM (eg ELECTRICAL OR ELECTRONIC) IS NOT ACCEPTABLE ANYWAY!" Does this mean that Brake Buddies and the like are not legal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 Derek Uzzell - 2014-06-05 7:33 AM Incidentally, towingaframes "Blog and Latest News" section claims that the UK A-frame specialist TOWtal went into liquidation on 29 April 2014, something I was not aware of. (The TOWtal website still seems to be operating normally.) https://www.thegazette.co.uk/notice/2112384 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 peter - 2014-04-17 9:03 PM It won't be retrospective anyway, so buy one now. That's what I'm relying on ! bought one late last year and using it now. Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 With November coming ever closer, and us intending to go away, towing the car for Christmas (in the UK) I e-mailed the manufacturer of our A-Frame, to make sure i wasn't going to break the law. This is what he sent me : E-MAIL REPLY FROM A SENIOR OFFICER OF THE UK DEPARTMENT FOR TRANSPORT In answer to a request for information on the changes to trailer / A frame regulations due in 2014 From: #####.######@dft.gsi.gov.uk To: ###########@hotmail.co.uk Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2014 09:48:05 +0000 Subject: 2014 a frame legislation Dear ######## There are no plans to change legislation in 2014. The only thing happening in 2014 that may be of interest is that from 29 October 2014, all new caravans will be required to have type approval before they are permitted to enter into service. See attached although this covers general trailers – caravans enjoyed a delay in the application of the requirements, which are applicable to them from 29 October 2014, rather than 2012 as detailed in the attached. Yours sincerely ##### ######### International Vehicle Standards Zone 1/33 Department for TransportGreat Minster House33 Horseferry RoadLondonSW1P 4DRTel: 0300 330 3000 THIS MAY PUT AN END TO THE ‘RUMOURS’ ABOUT NEW BRAKING REGULATIONS, CAN WE NOW STOP LISTENING TO THE NONSENSE ABOUT DEAD PEDAL AND OTHER INCORRECT INFORMATION TROTTED OUT BY THE ELECTRONIC BRAKING COMPANIES & TRAILER SALESMEN WHAT A SHAME THAT SO MANY PEOPLE HAVE SPENT A LOT OF MONEY ON ELECTRONIC BRAKING SYSTEMS (or Trailers) THAT NOW APPEAR TO BE UNNECESSARY. TO ADD INSULT TO INJURY VOSA HAVE STATED THAT ANY INDIRECT BRAKING SYSTEM (eg ELECTRICAL OR ELECTRONIC) IS NOT ACCEPTABLE ANYWAY ! ANY QUESTIONS ??? THE FIRST QUESTION MUST BE - HOW DID THIS ‘COMMERCIAL RUMOUR’ START AND WHO WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR IT............? Please contact Alan Bee at CAR-A-TOW Tel : 01202 632456 or email : info@caratow.com CAR-A-TOW The original and still the best www.caratow.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 littladyelsie - 2014-06-04 2:53 PM Reason manufacturers cant supply new information is simple. THERE IS NO ALTERATION TO THE LEGISLATION IN 2014. We have this in writing from the dft (Department for Transport) and the VCA (vehicle certification agency). As soon as I can work out how, I will post both copies of these e-mails. Please, don't listen to gossip, contact the people who know, the manufacturers, This is probably the E-Mail she was talking about. Sorry for the duplication, but i expect many A-Frame users would like a bit of clarification instead of rumour. Ray E-MAIL REPLY FROM A SENIOR OFFICER OF THE UK DEPARTMENT FOR TRANSPORT In answer to a request for information on the changes to trailer / A frame regulations due in 2014 From: #####.######@dft.gsi.gov.uk To: ###########@hotmail.co.uk Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2014 09:48:05 +0000 Subject: 2014 a frame legislation Dear ######## There are no plans to change legislation in 2014. The only thing happening in 2014 that may be of interest is that from 29 October 2014, all new caravans will be required to have type approval before they are permitted to enter into service. See attached although this covers general trailers – caravans enjoyed a delay in the application of the requirements, which are applicable to them from 29 October 2014, rather than 2012 as detailed in the attached. Yours sincerely ##### ######### International Vehicle Standards Zone 1/33 Department for TransportGreat Minster House33 Horseferry RoadLondonSW1P 4DRTel: 0300 330 3000 THIS MAY PUT AN END TO THE ‘RUMOURS’ ABOUT NEW BRAKING REGULATIONS, CAN WE NOW STOP LISTENING TO THE NONSENSE ABOUT DEAD PEDAL AND OTHER INCORRECT INFORMATION TROTTED OUT BY THE ELECTRONIC BRAKING COMPANIES & TRAILER SALESMEN WHAT A SHAME THAT SO MANY PEOPLE HAVE SPENT A LOT OF MONEY ON ELECTRONIC BRAKING SYSTEMS (or Trailers) THAT NOW APPEAR TO BE UNNECESSARY. TO ADD INSULT TO INJURY VOSA HAVE STATED THAT ANY INDIRECT BRAKING SYSTEM (eg ELECTRICAL OR ELECTRONIC) IS NOT ACCEPTABLE ANYWAY ! ANY QUESTIONS ??? THE FIRST QUESTION MUST BE - HOW DID THIS ‘COMMERCIAL RUMOUR’ START AND WHO WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR IT............? Please contact Alan Bee at CAR-A-TOW Tel : 01202 632456 or email : info@caratow.com CAR-A-TOW The original and still the best www.caratow.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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