candapack Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 This cropped up in another thread, and got me thinking. Basically, even with dedicated travel seats with proper seatbelts, the rear passengers are still sitting in a caravan body sitting on a van chassis. You can see how flimsy the construction is when you come across an overturned caravan on a motorway. But, as such vans are quite common, is there something I am missing? My own van has a dinette with 2 dedicated forward facing seats with belts, but I won't be carrying any passengers unless some of you good people can reassure me it's quite safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Here's the deal, imagine this, your at a standstill behind a HGV, another HGV runs in the back of you at 56mph as the driver is asleep, your dead. So is it unsafe to be on the road at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candapack Posted July 12, 2014 Author Share Posted July 12, 2014 colin - 2014-07-12 7:38 PM Here's the deal, imagine this, your at a standstill behind a HGV, another HGV runs in the back of you at 56mph as the driver is asleep, your dead. So is it unsafe to be on the road at all? Ouch! But a bit extreme. I was thinking more my daughter being in the back seat of my car, and another car running into the side of it. Then the same thing in a coachbuilt MH. I assume they do have to pass whatever safety checks that are applied to road going vehicles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Being alive is a risk. Getting out of bed in the morning is a risk. Crossing the road is a risk. We each of us have to decide what is an acceptable risk for us. Motorhomes statistically are involved in less accidents, which in turn tend to be less severe, than most other types of vehicle which is why insurance is so reasonable for most of us given their value. That said, crashes do happen and I venture to suggest that if an impact is so severe as to kill or maim back seat passengers then I dare say the cab passengers would suffer too? Personally when our boys were boys in the 70's and 80's we, like many others, travelled thousands and thousands of miles without any incidents or mishaps with one or two of them loose in the back either seated, standing, or up in the crow's nest (overcab) and we deemed it to be an acceptable risk at that time. These days I would think differently but even so I would expect rear seat belts to be more of a restraining tool in the event of heavy braking rather than a severe crash life saver. But that is just a personal view and no doubt others will disagree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teflon2 Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Had a similar layout for 9 years travelled round France and Italy then round the U.K. never even came close to a mishap. A motorhome is a large intimidating road vehicle very visible so most other drivers give you a lot of room. There is always the possibility of a collision but getting out of bed can be an error somedays. You pays your money you take your chance. John B-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 colin - 2014-07-12 7:38 PM Here's the deal, imagine this, your at a standstill behind a HGV, another HGV runs in the back of you at 56mph as the driver is asleep, your dead. So is it unsafe to be on the road at all? Unless you happen to own a Challenger battle tank it matters not what you are in under those circumstances! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Tracker - 2014-07-12 7:58 PM colin - 2014-07-12 7:38 PM Here's the deal, imagine this, your at a standstill behind a HGV, another HGV runs in the back of you at 56mph as the driver is asleep, your dead. So is it unsafe to be on the road at all? Unless you happen to own a Challenger battle tank it matters not what you are in under those circumstances! It was mainly to point out to OP that even they in the front seat of their vehicle they will never be 'quite safe' as was asked. But here's another thing for OP to consider, if you let your daughter ride a bike she will have even less protection than in a CB, as Richard says above life is full of risks everyone sets their own standard as to what is an acceptable risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candapack Posted July 12, 2014 Author Share Posted July 12, 2014 As the OP, I think I need to accept that I have worded my original post badly. "Quite safe", I know you cannot be that in any vehicle. The point I think I was trying to make was that, when you are sat in a road licensed vehicle with designated travel seats, there is a perception - maybe it's just me that has it - that you are as safe in one as you are in another. Yes, if you are sandwiched between 2 HGV's, you'll be toast. Yes, if your daughter is hit by a car while cycling, she'll be hurt. But at the same time as car manufacturers try to get an edge on the basis of side airbags, curtain airbags, crumple zones, Euro Encap ratings etc, we're still quite happy to driven around in fancy egg cartons. Our choice, fair enough, it's just something I hadn't considered and now I have, it concerns me. I know you can't eliminate risk altogether. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Well lets consider the risks. Assuming it's a front dinette, for a rear end collision you have several metres of chassis to absorb any impact. For side impacts there are two scenarios, from one side you will have a large part of chassis providing impact resistance, from the other side there will only be the shell, but due to the height most cars will be much lower and proboly cause leg damage. I've seen the results of a CB rolling and it's not pretty, but a modern vehicle has a built in 'roll bar' at rear of cab, this may provide some protection but it's proboly the worse situation, but then the same is often the case with bus travel, if it tips the passengers often die due to 'falling throu' a broken window. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
globebuster Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 A good appraisal Colin - couldn't have put it better. Just consider your average bus - no belts, nasty hard grab rail on the top of the seat etc - and whilst a bus is unlikely to be in a bad collision even a minor impact could leave you with nasty injuries. Dinette far safer than the rear - although removing any fixed table whilst in transit would be a good idea too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candapack Posted July 12, 2014 Author Share Posted July 12, 2014 colin - 2014-07-12 8:58 PM Well lets consider the risks. Assuming it's a front dinette, for a rear end collision you have several metres of chassis to absorb any impact. For side impacts there are two scenarios, from one side you will have a large part of chassis providing impact resistance, from the other side there will only be the shell, but due to the height most cars will be much lower and proboly cause leg damage. I've seen the results of a CB rolling and it's not pretty, but a modern vehicle has a built in 'roll bar' at rear of cab, this may provide some protection but it's proboly the worse situation, but then the same is often the case with bus travel, if it tips the passengers often die due to 'falling throu' a broken window. Very reassuring. Not. :D Now, I expect this again might just be me, but the more I think about it, the more I think I do not want to be responsible for injuries caused to any passengers in my van caused even partly due to the construction. So I won't be doing it any more. Which by the way is not a huge sacrifice. :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 candapack - 2014-07-12 7:55 PM..............................I assume they do have to pass whatever safety checks that are applied to road going vehicles? Never assume! :-) The seats, their ancorages, and the belts will be performance tested. The front cab, if the base vehicle cab is retained, will have been crash tested as an integral part of a van. If an A class, I am only aware that Hymer test their bodyshells, but as far as I know, only the 70% frontal impact test. The versions of the base vehicles, as delivered for conversion to motorhomes, will not, to my knowledge, have been subjected to individual testing. A part completed coachbuilt motorhome by Bailey has been crash tested but only for frontal impacts. AFAIK, no motorhomes have ever been crash tested for side swipe, side impact, or rear impact. I'm happy to be corrected on this, but the forms of construction used strongly suggest they cannot have been tested, and I cannot remember ever seeing mention of any such tests. They are made of chicken poop and lard, and do not have a crash resistant, or crash tested, bodyshell. If hit from behind even by a car, the rear seats are not a desirable place to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 I've seen more dangerous looking seats in lorries, cranes and buses - particularly the driver's seats that are low down with little more than a windscreen in front for protection and maybe 40tons behind them pushing them forwards ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 candapack - 2014-07-12 9:17 PM colin - 2014-07-12 8:58 PM Well lets consider the risks. Assuming it's a front dinette, for a rear end collision you have several metres of chassis to absorb any impact. For side impacts there are two scenarios, from one side you will have a large part of chassis providing impact resistance, from the other side there will only be the shell, but due to the height most cars will be much lower and proboly cause leg damage. I've seen the results of a CB rolling and it's not pretty, but a modern vehicle has a built in 'roll bar' at rear of cab, this may provide some protection but it's proboly the worse situation, but then the same is often the case with bus travel, if it tips the passengers often die due to 'falling throu' a broken window. Very reassuring. Not. :D Now, I expect this again might just be me, but the more I think about it, the more I think I do not want to be responsible for injuries caused to any passengers in my van caused even partly due to the construction. So I won't be doing it any more. Which by the way is not a huge sacrifice. :-D i'm sure my grandparents always had my safety to foremost, but we traveled for thousands of miles all over UK in vehicles with no seatbelts and like the vast majority of people managed to survive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJay Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 In the late 50s and early 60s, when my kids where young. We had no seat belts and traveled with the kids in the back, usually arguing as to who 's turn it was to sit in the middle!! Had a carry cot just sitting on back seat, and a seat which hooked over the front bench seat (those where the days!!) , when they were babies. All things now not allowed. BUT the traffic was nothing like it is to-day, and no motorways either. I can remember going on the M1 when it first opened, nice an quiet it was then!! PJay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 colin - 2014-07-12 9:32 PM..................i'm sure my grandparents always had my safety to foremost, but we traveled for thousands of miles all over UK in vehicles with no seatbelts and like the vast majority of people managed to survive. A man fell from the top of the Empire State building in New York. As he plummeted earthwards he was head muttering "so far so good". :-) The problem is not what happens in the absence of an accident, the answer to that is nothing. The problem is what happens in an accident. The risk is the accident, and one has no control over events at that point. Even if one might consider one's self the perfect driver (I'm not accusing Colin of this hubris - just trying to illustrate the point), in logic one must then accept that all other drivers will be less than perfect. So, even for the perfect driver, the risk will lie in what those less than perfect others do. The clue is in Colin's above statement "...............like the vast majority of people (we) managed to survive". It is obvious that the majority survived, or we should be very few indeed. However, it is the minority who did not survive that we are considering here - those who had the accidents - and our efforts to ensure more of them survive than used to be the case. It is estimated that around 40 car occupants are killed or seriously injured per billion miles travelled in UK, with just over 240 billion traffic miles being covered each year in cars. So, quite a low risk, but with very serious outcomes. As above, one cannot eliminate the risk, so all one can do is ameliorate the severity of the outcomes. That, to me, is all this discussion is about. Belted seats are one of the best, and simplest, weapons we have against death or serious injury in road vehicles. But, they are of little use in the rear of a relatively flimsy vehicle in anything other than a frontal impact. No need to panic, then, but surely at least worth considering? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallynnette Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 I'm sorry and understand your concerns, but surely there's an element of dare I say it...... Paranoia here. If your that concerned about rear passengers safety why buy a motorhome with extra belted seats, buy a two berth. Any accident is just that (unless avoidable), unless the manufacturers build cages within the structure ( vans included) you aint never going to be 'safe', plus your payload will be zero. How many small cars are there on the road where the rear seats are virtually touching the rear window C1's for example. (?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 The best strategy for avoiding accidents is to make every effort to avoid being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Any other strategy involves greater risk. :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve928 Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 colin - 2014-07-12 8:58 PM Assuming it's a front dinette, for a rear end collision you have several metres of chassis to absorb any impact. That would depend on the chassis heights of the van and the impacting vehicle. For example, the full height chassis use by, say, an Autotrail together with a slightly tail high attitude may indeed mean that the chassis would be hit and could absorb some of the impact. Compare that to the ultra-low chassis used on, say, a Bailey Autograph though: an HGV would simply ride over the top without ever touching the chassis and march straight up to the cab.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muswell Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 malc d - 2014-07-13 1:38 PM The best strategy for avoiding accidents is to make every effort to avoid being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Any other strategy involves greater risk. :-| The more time you spend on the road the more likely you are to be involved in an accident caused by some incompetent. The answer to this is to drive as fast as possible to reduce that time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 Or stay as far away from other road users as possible - like in France where there is much more s p a c e! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alwest Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 I think this is what you are looking for http://www.autorentals.com.au/vehicles/campervan-motorhome-hire/5-berth-twincab-motorhome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wasnt Me Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Wow that is brilliant. I would buy one of them. Does it have rear access, from the front? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Wasn't Me - 2014-08-05 8:47 AM Does it have rear access, from the front? Unfortunately not :-( Quote "Internal Access No" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigal55 Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Anybody in the back may have survived, as tracker said if you want to survive a hit by a hgv by a tank. http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/11364692.UPDATE__One_dead_and_two_injured_in_head_on_collision_which_closed_A31_for_five_hours/?ref=ar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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