Guest pelmetman Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 aandncaravan - 2015-03-29 12:39 PM pelmetman - 2015-03-29 8:45 AM aandncaravan - 2015-03-28 11:31 PM Give me an oldie any day, definitely don't want to get involved with those young upstarts. Turbos? Pah!!!. B-) ..................Progress eh? :D ........ It was a joke. If you follow the link to the website you will see that we not only embrace modern Technology but are very Technically able in Motorhome Electronics, Servicing, etc. Modern Electronic battery charger repair and wiring faults being our specialty. We don't just swap them out for another box, we will repair the broken charger in the Motorhome. We have also developed a Double Overhead Cam Engine transplant to replace the original 1934 H van design as well as a Pinto 2.1 Race engine Transplant. Currently working on creating a 6 speed Gearbox conversion to replace the standard 3 speed box. Mind you, I have always had a fondness for Valve Radios, Black and White TV's........... So was mine ;-) .............. I'm not adverse to progress per se............but progress dressed up in the Emperors new clothes should be recognised as such *-) .............ie encouraging everyone to drive diesels when we're now being told petrol is better (lol) (lol) (lol) .............. BTW talking of progress..... I'm currently having a V6 essex put into my works van along with an auto box.............do you think it could handle a nitro kit??? B-)................I know I'll need to put a bit of weight in the back end of it for traction :D ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 So long as it has had a well rebuilt bottom end and you keep the revs below 5,000rpm the engine should be reliable and go well on Nitrous. Suggest your gas time should be no more than 10seconds though as the Water ways won't be able to get rid of the heat fast enough beyond that. I would have said the weak link would have been the Auto Gearbox, assuming it's the usual Essex V6 match of Granada BW65? Suggest a big Oil cooler, the standard Gearbox cooler will be way too small, especially if the van will be carrying any weight? Fit a twin wheel axle with 4 soft tyres and it should grip pretty good in the dry? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 aandncaravan - 2015-03-29 6:10 PM So long as it has had a well rebuilt bottom end and you keep the revs below 5,000rpm the engine should be reliable and go well on Nitrous. Suggest your gas time should be no more than 10seconds though as the Water ways won't be able to get rid of the heat fast enough beyond that. I would have said the weak link would have been the Auto Gearbox, assuming it's the usual Essex V6 match of Granada BW65? Suggest a big Oil cooler, the standard Gearbox cooler will be way too small, especially if the van will be carrying any weight? Fit a twin wheel axle with 4 soft tyres and it should grip pretty good in the dry? Unfortunately my bottom end is an unknown quantity :D ............as the Essex came out of a Reliant Scimitar so not sure if its a Ford auto box either? :-S ............Sounds like a nitro kit maybe a step too far in my current mid life crisis :D .............as twin wheels would mean redoing the rear wheel arches that I've just had replaced..........so I guess for now I'll just go down the LPG route, which I'm told improves performance as well as emissions B-) ...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gocro Posted April 21, 2015 Author Share Posted April 21, 2015 Update. Brand new Ford 2.2 short block, new oil pump, £300 full gasket set. Have now discovered the turbo is shot with visible movement on the shaft, so that's also got to be replaced. Started to build engine up again today, will have it back in the van by Friday , hopefully, as Kevin ( the mechanic) has got a job with the milk man tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 Thanks for the update, hope it goes well and you let us know. If it wasn't the injectors, any ideas why it failed at this low mileage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gocro Posted April 23, 2015 Author Share Posted April 23, 2015 Chicken and egg situation, did piston cause turbo failure or visa versa or, then again, just coincidence. 10 hours in around another 15 to go before start up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gocro Posted April 24, 2015 Author Share Posted April 24, 2015 Fought the fully built up lump back into the van. Drive shafts and cooling bits then start up and panels back on Monday, hopefully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 Very Interesting pics Thank You. What did you use to get the engine out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 300 quid for a brand new short engine seems quite reasonable B-) .........Was it supplied by Ford or Peugeot?.... Good luck when you turn the key ;-) ............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 gocro - 2015-04-23 6:46 PM Chicken and egg situation, did piston cause turbo failure or visa versa or, then again, just coincidence. . As you say the engine revs went through the roof and then died it suggests to me the turbo failed first, and then the over speeding engine damaged the piston. But I may be wrong :$ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gocro Posted April 25, 2015 Author Share Posted April 25, 2015 Home made trolley strapped to the engine with blocks then lowered to the ground on a trolley jack, easy compared to the bother of getting it back in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derek pringle Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 hi gocro, I am really sorry for your bad luck but it IS a great thread. Please keep all pics. and info coming til the final resolution of your situation. cheers and good luck derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gocro Posted April 25, 2015 Author Share Posted April 25, 2015 pelmetman - 2015-04-25 8:48 AM 300 quid for a brand new short engine seems quite reasonable B-) .........Was it supplied by Ford or Peugeot?.... Good luck when you turn the key ;-) ............. £300 was for the gasket set, the new block, with crank and pistons was £1000 from Ford. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gocro Posted April 26, 2015 Author Share Posted April 26, 2015 Getting ready for tomorrow and the big start up. Bought fully synthetic oil from Wilkinsons, of all places £20 for 5 litres as I will be changing the stuff after 500/1000 miles. Discovered the spin on filter housing has been damaged during the engine fitting, can get replacements from Ebay at around £12 Wed delivery , none of our motor-factors can get it quickly so it's the main dealers, Ford £38, Peugeot £33, I do love help pay for those sharp suites and complimentary coffees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted April 26, 2015 Share Posted April 26, 2015 gocro - 2015-04-26 9:41 AM Getting ready for tomorrow and the big start up. Bought fully synthetic oil from Wilkinsons, of all places £20 for 5 litres as I will be changing the stuff after 500/1000 miles. Discovered the spin on filter housing has been damaged during the engine fitting, can get replacements from Ebay at around £12 Wed delivery , none of our motor-factors can get it quickly so it's the main dealers, Ford £38, Peugeot £33, I do love help pay for those sharp suites and complimentary coffees. Well at least you are not paying for the brand name on the oil can :-D I use 10w 40 semi synthetic A3/B4 at £10 for 4.5 litres from Home Bargains. Its the grade of oil the workshop foreman at the main dealers where I bought it told me to use, it says you can use it in the Citroen handbook, but of course Citroen recommend Total *-) and could no more recommend a different brand of oil than they could recommend Mercedes vans. :-D Thats the same filter housing as the one on my 2008 manufactured Citroen Relay 2.2 120hp, Citroen were cheaper than Peugeot or Fiat when I got quotes for other things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gocro Posted April 27, 2015 Author Share Posted April 27, 2015 All the oily bits are bolted together and vital fluids added. The engine was cranked over for a good while with the power off to the injectors. Connected the feed to the injectors and fired up on all cylinders on second turn of the key (amazing)sweetly, just for 30 seconds or so then switched off.topped up all the fluids gain and then ran for a few minutes, as expected an oil leak, we think from the seal behind the main pulley, a job for tomorrow, along with faults code clear clearance Below leaking fluids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markh1 Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 I hope that's not your blood on the brake disc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gocro Posted April 27, 2015 Author Share Posted April 27, 2015 Nope that's Kevin's, I couldn't afford to lose that much, he's a proper bloke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gocro Posted April 28, 2015 Author Share Posted April 28, 2015 Thought we'd cracked it and all was finished, but the crankshaft pulley seal is faulty and a replacement is two days away. I'm going on holiday tomorrow, so (hopefully )it will all be finished by the time I come back. On reflection I wished I had just consigned it to a garage and had a good recon engine fitted at a cost of £5.5k rather than the stress and bother of assisting Kevin the mobile guy at around £3.5k. Seeing what actually happens and the parts and work that goes into rebuilding an engine , I don't a decent recon job cannot be done commercially at some of the bargain prices offered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 Sorry to hear about the oil seal, and hope its all fixed soon. Please keep us posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 I know the Turbo has bearing play and someone has suggested that maybe this caused the initial failure? But the Turbo pressurises all the Cylinders, so why didn't all Pistons go?. As we suggested earlier, the original cause must be cylinder related as only one Piston has popped. Turbo Bearing failure is usually as a result of poor quality Oil or Oil that has not been changed 'regularly'. (Read more on the definition of 'Regularly' later) The worst contribution it would have made here is dribbling in a little Oil, which would have gone in to all Cylinders equally. If there was an issue with the Cylinder Valve Gear, that would have been apparent during the overhaul, assuming the Head has been stripped down and Crack/pressure tested/Skimmed, so that leaves the Injector as the most likely culprit?? We rebuild both Diesels and Petrol engines for a living and we did suggest earlier the best long term and expedient course was a full exchange Engine, which you now seem to acknowledge? Please now trust us on our other advice relating to the Injectors? May I repeat what I said in that post above, please get the Injectors Cleaned and tested? If it was dirt passing through an Injector it might have cleared, but if it's more than that, then is the issue still in there waiting to cause mayhem again? It is not a lot of money to get the spray pattern/fuel flow checked on each Injector. Make sure you clearly label them before removal so that any issues that might be thrown up during testing, can be related back to the Cylinders they came from? A good engine Builder will try very hard to identify the cause of the failure, because he won't want a potential Warranty claim from it making a come back. On a Diesel that has failed like this one, we do a major Fuel system test as a matter of course, there is almost always an issue with the fuelling on the failed Cylinder. Turbos can run for very High Miles, IF, the Oil is changed 'regularly'. The Oil is the Blood of the system, it is essential it is the appropriate quality and changed regularly. That your Turbo has failed so young might be a mechanical issue but more likely to be a Oil issue? Changing the Oil regularly does not always mean every 6,000 miles, or whatever the interval it says in the handbook. It means changing it when it needs it. Different driving styles will stress the Oil in different ways. Driving flat out on the fast Continental Autoroutes in searing temperatures of Summer will really heat stress the Oil but the 'Burn' in the combustion chamber will be 'Clean' leading to low Oil contamination. Driving at 29mph in Winter through towns and Cities with lots of Stop/Starts can lead to a combustion process that is 'dirty', contaminating the Oil with byproducts of that 'cold/dirty' combustion. This Oil is deadly to a Turbo. Most handbooks will give a guide, such as every 6,000 miles, but on the following pages there will often be small print such as, "change more often if driven a lot in Town" or "change the Oil more often if driven at motorway speeds on a frequent basis", etc. Some handbooks also advocate that if you drive in dusty/sandy conditions, for example touring Morocco, you should half the Oil change interval. If a Motorhome stands for a long period of time without use, condensation inside the engine is a real risk. That is why the Handbook says the Oil should be changed at least every 12 months regardless of mileage. The Engines we Rebuild are first generation Lorry style Diesels that will run for hundreds of thousands of miles with scant maintenance. Modern Diesels run on a tight balance between efficiency, emissions and reliability. The Balance has not always favoured reliability as witnessed by the Euro 5 engines suffering from issues like we have never seen before. This makes the role of the Oil quality and the frequency of replacement absolutely key, more than at any other time in the past 50years. There is a good reason why the best Oils cost more. We would advocate that you change your Oil more frequently if that is what the Handbook and your driving style suggests. We would strongly suggest only the correct grade and rating of Oil is used from a reputable manufacturer. When you buy from a 'low cost' source, there is a greater risk that the contents are not always what it says on the Tin. I know I am being over the top here, nobody would label a Steak Pie as containing 100% Beef and then use Horse Meat, would they? A Shell/Mobil Oil can is far more likely to contain the exact specification it says on the label. The Oil from 'Bloggs Oils Are Us' may, or may not, be to the specification the label states. Saving £35 a year versus the £3,500 cost above? May we also suggest you fit the best quality Oil Filter? It doesn't need to be a Fiat/Peugeot one, but a reputable make like Mahle, Mann, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted May 1, 2015 Share Posted May 1, 2015 Many Thanks for another very interesting post aandncaravan, I have enjoyed reading it. Regarding the oil, manufacturers might tend to recommend one suitable for worldwide use, but Citroen handbook gives a chart indicating 10w 40 is suitable for our relatively very stable temperature range (photocopy attached) Home Bargains oil is produced by http://www.viscol.co.uk/ , according to the bottle a British company established in 1861. I would hope somebody is checking that oils comply with the specifications on the bottle, but I don't know :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted May 3, 2015 Share Posted May 3, 2015 The viscosity is the least important part of a modern Oils technical spec, but see note at the end. Generally, but not always, the viscosity of Oil has got thinner to improve economy, not protection. Most of the modern engines now run a 5w-30. For the modern Motorhome Diesel engine it is vital it has the absolutely right technical spec ACEA (Association des Constructeurs Europeens d'Automobiles) C3 or C4. Use of the wrong Oil in a modern Motorhome engine can damage the Cat/DPF and emission control sensors, which in turn can cause the DPF regeneration cycle to malfunction. The DPF regeneration process (effectively cleaning the Diesel Particulate Filter) has been linked to engine failure when it goes wrong. Again use of the wrong spec or a high SAPS Oil can lead to premature Turbo failure as there will a greater tendency to clog. A very low SAPS Oil, like ACEA C3/C4 is essential, particularly so as the engine ages because it burns more Oil so a greater chance of the by-products contaminating the sensors and the Cat/DPF. Generally these Oils are fully synthetics, but that does not mean that a fully synthetic Oil will also be a low SAPS oil or even close to the necessary ACEA C4 standard. Additionally note that Oils synthesised from Ester are much more capable (but more expensive) than Oils synthesised from hydrocracked petroleum. They are both full synthetic Oils, but one will be twice the performer at 6,000 miles than the other. These blends of quality Oil and additives makes them expensive to produce. It is therefore less likely that an Oil from a top source/manufacturer will let you down, more likely to do what it says on the tin. Take a really careful look at some of the 'marketing' on the Budget Oil labels, you will see things like "synthetic blend" trying to mislead you into thinking it's a fully synthetic Oil when it is only semi-synthetic? You won't find that on a Mobil Oil bottle. The ever increasing search for lower emissions and better economy stretches the Oils each time. Euro V engines are particularly Intolerant of the incorrect spec Oil. The sensors in the exhaust monitoring emissions, oxygen, etc. become coated over with the by-products of a poor Oil leading to malfunction, warning lights on the Dash and DPF regeneration issues and premature failure. Early turbo failure is also an issue. Check out the cost of a Diesel Particulate Filter and Catalyst for a 2015 Merc Sprinter, but make sure you are sitting down. As the saying goes, especially with Oil, you really do get what you pay for. Coming back to Viscosity, my interpretation of your own chart shows that 10/40 is not suitable when the temperature drops below -4. There have been many times when average UK temperatures have been much lower this last Winter. By running with a 10/40 when the air temperature is -10 you risk many issues : premature turbo wear because the Oil is too thick to flow properly : a). Excess pressure in the Oil lines, again because the oil is too viscous. This can cause the Pressure relief valves to divert Oil from flowing where it should go, to relieve the pressure. b). Inadequate lubrication, again because the flow of Oil will be poor. c). But the biggest risk of the wrong viscosity is malfunction of hydraulic tappets. We have seen a valve Jacked open with disastrous results when the Piston is on it's way up. One vehicle demonstrated really well what can happen : In January 2013 we had a Toyota RAV4 brought in because it would not start. When you operated the Starter the engine whirred around at twice the normal speed, absolutely no compression. We thought the Cam belt had broken, but this checked out ok. We then had to leave it until later that day as we had more important stuff to do. We went back to it at 14:00 and it started straight away. The warmth in the workshop had thinned the Oil, allowing the hydraulic Tappets to let the valves close. We left it outside overnight, -12, and exactly the same non starting issue the next morning. Changed the Oil and the stuff that drained out was like Treacle. Changed it for the correct grade and all problems gone. The Rav4 petrol is a non contact engine when the valves are stuck down (such as when the Cam belt breaks) they don't make contact with the pistons. Almost all Diesels would suffer very expensive damage in the same situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muswell Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 Interesting post. It ties in with what I was told last year. We have a Golf Tsi (petrol) with the DSG automatic gearbox for my wife's dodgy knee. A wonderful engine and amazing gearbox. A neighbour's son runs a VW garage and one day when he was visting I asked him about reliability on such a sophisticated machinery. He said that it was excellent except when people had not been meticulous over oil changes and using the exact specified oil, in which case they had seen big problems even at 40 000 miles. His 86 year old dad had the same car so that confirmed his confidence in my eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 aandncaravan - 2015-05-03 10:31 PM Coming back to Viscosity, my interpretation of your own chart shows that 10/40 is not suitable when the temperature drops below -4. There have been many times when average UK temperatures have been much lower this last Winter. Hi Allan, My only query with your statement is that I believe you have read the -4 as degrees Celsius whereas in fact you have read the degrees Fahrenheit column. This equates to -20 degrees Celsius which is rare in this country. Well certainly far, far rarer then -4 degrees Celsius. So for all you folk running 10W40 oil do not panic! It's good to -20 degrees CELSIUS. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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