Wasnt Me Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 Hi I am looking for advice in getting the result I want (no cost repair) out of a garage I have paid a considerable amount of money to for a repair they have not completed properly or the part they fitted was always faulty and they took over 3 attempts to diagnose it and now is out of warranty. Last July my motorhome broke down on way to see the start of the Tour de France (most annoying). I chose to have it recovered the garage and motorhome specialist who had done my MOT and had impressed me in the past. They also said they could look at it the next day. The garage spent a few hours and fitted some parts as part of their diagnosis. These included a fuel filter and pressure sensor. After this the vehicle ran for them but they said all things pointed to the high pressure fuel pump and recommended this was replaced. What they said made sense and it sounds completely feasible. They repaired the vehicle which involved removing the front end of the vehicle including the inlet manifold, rad and condenser and I paid the bill of £1633 and collected it. I drove the vehicle to Devon with no problems and on my return I noticed it smelt of diesel and took a look under the bonnet. I found that there was a small fuel leak from the pressure sensor and returned it to them, which they sorted with no issues. Two months late we had done some more miles and it still smelt a bit so I had a good look under it and found fuel on the sub-frame and on the A/C compressor, which happens to be under the fuel pump. So I took it back and asked them to investigate for me. I went to collect it and was told it was not leaking and was charged £62 for the privilege, to cover his labour. I was not impressed and paid it as I felt I had no choice as he had my vehicle and I had not discussed what the outcome would if there was no leak. Leaving the place I thought that will be the last time they see it. We did not use it much over the winter and it did not seem to be leaking, or I did not notice. Then in May it really started to smell again. I arranged for the MOT and asked the garage to look at it explaining my concerns and expressed my dissatisfaction at the last visit and explained I was not expecting to pay for the check. I was told it was leaking some fluid but they did not think it was fuel. I cleaned it thoroughly underneath with a jet wash and kept an eye on it. Halfway through France the smell came back and was worse, so I booked it back in for the garage to look at again explaining my concerns about the fact that 12 months has now passed and I was not looking for another huge bill. Phone call today from the garage telling me wait for it………………………………………………………… It is leaking from the pump area and they need to remove the front end to access it. I was also told that if it was the pipe union leaking they would cover the cost. If it was the pump I would be liable for the cost. So if you have got this far and read all of what I have written the big question is????? I am I being unreasonable to expect this to be a free repair, seeing as I have reported this fault at least twice once within 2 months and once within 11 months. I need to wait to speak with the garage owner on Monday and TBH I feel like telling him I will be taking the vehicle elsewhere and send him the repair bill and taking him to the small claims court if he refuses to pay. Any advice would be great of how I can make him see my point of view or if anyone has been down the route of suing a garage as it’s a new one on me. Thanks for your time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flicka Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 It would be wise to get some professional advise, before issuing an ultimatum to the garage owner. Express your concerns & see what his response is, before playing last card. Maybe a call to your local Trading Standards will give you a clearer course of action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 Wasn't me, Are you a member of AA, RAC, CC or C&CC? If so they all offer free legal advice similar to the CAB. Give them a call and they will offer guidance on how to proceed. Just don't go in all guns blazing, you'll get their backs straight up and may be told politely to go away. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wasnt Me Posted August 21, 2015 Author Share Posted August 21, 2015 Thanks for the above advice I am a member of the C&CC so I will call them today. So far I feel like I am being taken for a ride and I would like the garage to realise I am not going to judt role over and pay them for jobkI have already paid for. Its not me being unreasonable is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brock Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 Check to see whether the garage is part of an quality assurance group or garage franchise. If so, they may be able to assist. Even quality garages get it wrong sometimes. Did the repairs come with any guarantees? Some garages guarantee their work for a set period. You also have statutory rights which the legal advice you gain should explain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordThornber Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 I have a small amount of motor trade experience and I am confident you'll get the matter resolved. I saw many cases similar to this and in each instance (except one, the customer was impossible), they were sorted amicably. Stay calm, present the facts and you'll be fine. Without wishing to sound contradictory, businesses these days are all too aware of the power of social media and negative impact publicity. Martyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wasnt Me Posted August 21, 2015 Author Share Posted August 21, 2015 Again thanks for this useful advice. What concerns me most is that we will not know the fault in till the vehicle is stripped apart in the workshop. Once that happens I have potentially lost the vehicle to them and my hands will be tied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 Which is why it would be wise to take the legal advice before you hand the van to the garage. If CCC fail, have a look at your house, or contents, insurances, to see if they provide legal advice. Many do. Another alternative is Citizens Advice, who have a lot of general advice on their website, and your local branch should have a legal advisor you can contact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timabob Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 Legal advice would of course be a good idea. But please be aware that the 12 months warranty quoted by very many companies, is not, in reality sett in stone. The Sale of Goods act is all about what a reasonable person would consider reasonable in terms of quality of the product sold, including durability. Would a reasonable person consider that 12 months is a reasonable period for the part that may have failed to have lasted, or should that period be longer or shorter than that. 12 months is just an arbitary period which sellers tend to use, but in certain circumstances that should clearly much longer and in others shorter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wasnt Me Posted August 21, 2015 Author Share Posted August 21, 2015 Thanks for the further information. I contacted the CC&C and they recommended I quote the supply of goods and services act, when speaking with him. in Particular section 13 and section 4. I believe this will probably upset the owner and get his back up so I need to establish the answer to some questions I have. With regard to the warranty, I am certain it has been leaking since the the pump was fitted and returned the vehicle within 2 months and 1500 miles, surely it would have lasted that long? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 How did the van break down initially? Did it just stop when you were driving, or refuse to start after you'd parked it, or begin to misfire or similar while driving, or what? The point is that the garage has identified the common rail pump as the culprit, and I would expect this pump to last as long as the engine. There is always the odd one, but I'd be very surprised if it were a common fault. You might try researching this on the Ford Transit forum, to see if others have similar experience. An '09 van will be about 6 years old, with relatively low mileage, so failure of the common-rail pump seems to me unusual. Have you been dealing with a Ford main dealer, who is also a Transit specialist? If so, you can turn to Ford customer services for advice on what they would expect their franchised garage to achieve. Was the pump that was fitted new, or reconditioned? In either case, was it a genuine Ford part? If, as seem the case, the replacement pump began leaking as soon as it was fitted, it will be due to a failure on the part of the garage to properly fit the connected pipework - I'd guess on the high pressure side (and this is really high pressure) - or the pump itself is defective. I can't see an alternative cause. Regarding warranty, if I understand the timescales correctly, the replacement pump is now just over a year old, and was possibly warranted for 12 months. However, as said above, the warranty is just a promise to you by the maker of the pump that if it fails within that timescale they will replace it FoC. They may, or may not, bear the labour cost of so doing. Have you seen this warranty to know what its actual conditions are? You should have been given a copy. However, that is just the warranty and, as suggested above, your rights in law are against the garage. They elected to replace the original pump, which had in itself failed very early in its life - which seems to me odd - and fit a replacement. That was their expert diagnosis, and is their risk in terms of their obligation to you - which was not simply to replace the pump, but to cure the cause of your initial breakdown, and subsequently to rectify what you identify as a fuel leak. It seems they have failed in at least one of those tasks, leaving them liable to place you back in the position of owning a non-leaking van with a working fuel pump. You may possibly have to make a contribution to the cost, on the basis that you have had 13 months use of the replacement pump, but that should be all. Do you belong to the AA or RAC, and have you considered getting them to inspect the vehicle? You would need to pay them for this but, if the garage is held to have fitted a defective component, or to have poorly executed their work, you should be able to reclaim the cost of the report from them. Have the garage said what this mystery fluid is that is leaking? There are 6 possibilities. Vehicle coolant, engine oil, power steering fluid, A/C refrigerant, brake fluid, and diesel. Not too demanding to determine which for a competent firm. Have you considered taking the van to a different garage, and here I would definitely recommend a franchised Ford commercial dealer who is a Transit specialist (look on Ford's website for nearby dealers, the nearest looks like Allen Ford), and paying them for (say) an hours time to inspect your van, and asking them if they will show you their findings while it is on the lift, and give you a brief report stating what they find. You can always dangle to possibility of taking the vehicle back to them for repair once you have sorted out your dispute with the other garage. :-) You'll need to set all this up with the workshop manager. As with the AA/RAC, the cost should be claimable against the garage that did the work. In either event, I think you should first advise the original garage that you are unhappy with what they are telling you, and have decided to seek a second opinion before allowing them to carry out further work. Just that conversation may extract a change of tune. Definitely speak to someone at management level, preferably in person. If you have facts on which to proceed, you will be in a much better place to challenge the original garage over any faults that are identified, but you should give them the opportunity to rectify the defect before taking the van elsewhere for repair. If you don't do this, you would weaken any case you may have against them. After all, if the pump is, for example, a third party reconditioned pump, and it has failed, you would have to pay whoever to fit a genuine spare, and the cost would be at least equal to what you have already paid. So, proceed with caution as, if the worst comes to the worst, you may need to sue the original garage for the cost of their work, plus the cost of reports to establish cause, plus any costs you incur in bringing a case against them. Hopefully, it will all get sorted out amicably, and will not get to that point. However, hopefully does not always happen, and it is better to be well prepared should the worst turn out to be the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldi Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 Evening all, not only is it a fire hazard to have leaking diesel but illegal and highly dangerous for people on two wheels so this needs sorting before the bobbies catch you. lf I were you I would take it to a ford dealer. norm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wasnt Me Posted August 21, 2015 Author Share Posted August 21, 2015 Hello Brian The van just stopped and would start again without introducing easy-start into the inlet. It does seem to point to the original fault being the pump as it cured the breakdown. I agree it is unusual for a part to fail that early on low mileage (25000). At the time I did search on the transit forums, but did not come up with much. I must say I have no issue with the original diagnosis. No I have not been dealing with a main agent and I fear this may have been my biggest mistake. I am unsure about the part fitted the garage I know struggled to source one and I have presumed it was a quality part they fitted, from the price of the repair. The garage have confirmed that it is fuel that must be leaking when the vehicle is under load and have suggested it is either the pipe union or the pump itself. This is unconfirmed due to poor access to the area. On collecting the vehicle I was given an invoice (not that detailed) and no advice or information about the warranty. I think the plan to take it to another garage for inspection is a good idea and may inform the garage that I will do this might be useful. My plan is to talk to the owner of the garage on Monday in person and ask him some quite important questions. Hopefully this will indicate I am not going to just 'roll over' and pay him even more money. All useful information thanks Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wasnt Me Posted August 21, 2015 Author Share Posted August 21, 2015 goldi - 2015-08-21 8:37 PM Evening all, not only is it a fire hazard to have leaking diesel but illegal and highly dangerous for people on two wheels so this needs sorting before the bobbies catch you. lf I were you I would take it to a ford dealer. norm I agree with you hence my multiple attempts to get this sorted. I am a cyclist who is well aware of the risks if fuel on the road. I think it may well end up at a Ford dealer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 Wasn't Me - 2015-08-21 10:23 PM................................The garage have confirmed that it is fuel that must be leaking when the vehicle is under load and have suggested it is either the pipe union or the pump itself. This is unconfirmed due to poor access to the area....................... Don't understand this. AFAIK, the pump delivers fuel to the injector rail at about 15,000 psi (yes, really!), so I can't understand how the vehicle being under load would make one jot of difference to the pressure in the rail. It only works at this sort of pressure, and doesn't soar up and down with engine revs. I don't know if the Transit has a lift pump to deliver diesel from the tank to the common-rail pump, but as these are commonly electric pumps that work at far lower pressure I still can't see the vehicle being under load making any difference there either. I think this is technical sounding flannel to cover up for a duff job. Be interested in other, more technically competent, views on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wasnt Me Posted August 22, 2015 Author Share Posted August 22, 2015 It was my understanding that the pump delivers the high pressure to the rail and is monitored by the pressure sensor in the end of the rail. Usually this controlled electronically at the pump on a Bosch system. I see what you mean about the variation in pressure, it isn't actually that much. The only real thing that differs with engine speed is the amount of fuel delivered. The vehicle does have a lift pump installed in the tank to deliver low pressure fuel to the high pressure pump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 Wasn't Me - 2015-08-20 8:37 PM ....Two months late we had done some more miles and it still smelt a bit so I had a good look under it and found fuel on the sub-frame and on the A/C compressor, which happens to be under the fuel pump. So I took it back and asked them to investigate for me. I went to collect it and was told it was not leaking and was charged £62 for the privilege, to cover his labour. I was not impressed and paid it as I felt I had no choice as he had my vehicle and I had not discussed what the outcome would if there was no leak. Leaving the place I thought that will be the last time they see it. We did not use it much over the winter and it did not seem to be leaking, or I did not notice. Then in May it really started to smell again..... I'm afraid this sounds to me as if you are being unrealistic in expecting the garage to guarantee their repair work forever and to do inspection work free of charge whenever you think a new problem might be connected to a repair they've done. The vehicle had run OK after the repair for two months, then been idle over a long period so although it's clearly possible that the original problem and repair are connected in some way to the leak, it's also quite possible that something unconnected has gone wrong. They have offered to look again and told you that if the fault is the pipe connector they will cover it. That doesn't seem a bad offer. Taking issue by suing someone is a bold move and obliges you to prove your case - which will involve paying for an independent expert opinion which would appear to require dismantling and therefore might cost more than the original repair. I suggest you cut your losses, avoid falling out with the garage and take advantage of their offer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wasnt Me Posted August 22, 2015 Author Share Posted August 22, 2015 Thanks for your response and views but.......... .....I am not expecting the garage to warranty a repair for ever. What I expect is for them to put a problem right that in my opinion has been there since I paid them to repair it. I have asked them to investigate this leak 3 times twice within 12 months once within 2 months of the repair, which I paid for. I don't actually want to have to sue anyone I just want to treated properly and not face a huge bill. It's interesting you say cut my losses, what and potentially pay them another £1000-£1500 to fix a fault that wasn't there when I broke down. What happens if there is a further problem? Keep paying them every year. I think I would rather pay someone else to sort the problem and get some sort of warranty with the repair. Because currently with this garage I have not had much luck with their understanding of warranty. I will be contacting another garage today to quote for the pump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wasnt Me Posted August 24, 2015 Author Share Posted August 24, 2015 Thanks again for the advice. After a lengthy phone call and face to face discussion today, where the garage owner stood by his statement of warranty out on the pump and would fix for free if a fault caused by their workmanship. I have just taken a phone call from the garage owner informing me he will repair the leak and cover the total cost. :-D :-D :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigparkie Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 B-) the high pressure side runs at between 300 and 1500 bar.also if there is a leak on the high pressure side the ECU shuts engine down so leak is on the low pressure side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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