Alloy wheels Ducato X290

[thomasplc]

Recently bought an x290 with 16"alloy wheels VIN indicates wheel studs should be 16mm but those supplied (14mm) are for 15" alloys The M/H has been plated at 3850 kg Can anyone guide me as to the implications of this change?

Many thanks

[witzend]

Some times when alloy wheels are fitted they are larger than the original steel wheel and the tyres are then fitted with a smaller profile so the outside dia remains the same.

 

 

[Keithl]

thomasplc - 2015-11-13 5:58 PM

 

Recently bought an x290 with 16"alloy wheels VIN indicates wheel studs should be 16mm but those supplied (14mm) are for 15" alloys The M/H has been plated at 3850 kg Can anyone guide me as to the implications of this change?

Many thanks

 

Well my take on it is that you CANNOT change the size of the Stud or Bolt without changing the entire hub assembly (or drive flange at a minimum).

 

So the fact that the wheels are alloys is slightly academic, where did you find the bolt size from your VIN as I would first of all question that information. If the VIN does indeed lead back to the larger diameter then you would have to question Fiat as to why you have the wrong size.

 

Perhaps your MH has NOT been built on a 3,850 kg chassis after all???

 

Keith.

[Derek Uzzell]

thomasplc

 

In this instance it would be very useful to know which make and model of motorhome you’ve bought, but this may help...

 

Up to mid-2006 Citroen Relay, Fiat Ducato and Peugeot Boxer vehicles could be obtained in ‘light’ chassis format (essentially up-to-3500kg overall weight) or ‘heavy’ chassis format (over-3500kg overall weight and usually referred to as “Maxi” chassis). Light and heavy versions could be distinguished visually from each other by their wheel size, with the former having 15”-diameter wheels and the latter having 16”-diameter wheels.

 

When the Relay/Ducato/Boxer X290 ranges were introduced in mid-2006 it became possible to opt for 16”-diameter (steel or alloy) wheels for ‘light’-chassis X290 vehicles instead of the standard 15”-diameter wheels.

 

The ‘light'-chassis 16”-diameter wheels are visually similar to the 16”-diameter wheels used on ‘heavy’-chassis (“Maxi”) X290 vehicles, but the hubs used on ‘light’-chassis vehicles are different to the hubs used on ‘heavy’-chassis vehicles and, consequently, ‘light’ and ‘heavy’ 16” wheels need to be different to match the different hubs. As 'light’-chassis hubs remain the same irrespective of whether the standard 15”-diameter wheels or the optional 16”-diameter wheels are fitted, 14mm wheel-bolts are used in both cases.

 

If your X290 motorhome is based on a Ducato ‘light’-chassis, with the 16”-diameter alloy-wheel option and plated to 3850kg, it should have 14mm wheel-bolts. Conversely, if it is based on a Ducato ‘heavy’-chassis it ought to have 16mm wheel-bolts.

[thomasplc]

FYI MH is Hymer 588 with alko chassis When VIN is entered into Fiat database it comes up that the wheel studs should be 16mm - however the studs actually fitted are 14mm which I am told apply to 15" wheels

I have been back to the M/H supplier for an answer but was hoping for some guidance before they answer as I don't want to be baffled with science

[Steve928]

No need to be baffled because you have your answer;

 

- light chassis with optional 16" wheels on a 118mm bolt circle diameter = M14 wheel bolts

- heavy/maxi chassis on standard 16" wheels on a 130mm bolt circle = M16 wheel bolts.

[Robinhood]

...supported by the detailed (German) Hymer pricelist.....

 

(I doubted they would upgrade the "light" chassis beyond 3700, but apparently they go to 3850, and the 16" alloys are an option (and will be built to match the Fiat original 15" spacings)).

[Keithl]

Have you checked that you have the same size wheel bolts front to back?

 

You never know, stranger things have happened!

 

Keith.

 

Edit: Reason for asking - Fiat front, Al-Ko rear!

[Homenaway]

Hi,

Our new Weinsberg CaraCompact has 16" alloy wheels (genuine Fiat ones) with 118mm PCD and 14mm studs so that's a correct option as others have said. The plated weight is 3500kg on the V5 and the Fiat weight is 3650kg. The tyres are 225/75 R16C Agilis camper.

I tried to get a set of locking wheel bolts but gave up after being given M16 ones by the local Fiat dealer, then McGard M14 ones which have a smaller outside diameter of the cone. Not sure what the dimensions of the Milenco M14 locking bolts as their website doesn't give enough details.

Steve

[Robbo]

Homenaway - 2015-11-13 8:16 PM

 

Hi,

Our new Weinsberg CaraCompact has 16" alloy wheels (genuine Fiat ones) with 118mm PCD and 14mm studs so that's a correct option as others have said. The plated weight is 3500kg on the V5 and the Fiat weight is 3650kg. >

 

So, as I understand, the V5 weight is 3500kg and the plated weight is 3650kg. So, presumably you pay the higher road tax for being in the up to 3500kg range. Confused !!!

 

Sorry for highjacking the original topic about alloy wheels.

[thomasplc]

Gentlemen

Thanks for your observations on this matter Having checked the PCD I can confirm it is 118mm

I will persue why Fiat (via VIN) are indicating that the studs should be 16mm.

The local Fiat Professional dealer has ordered 14mm locking studs but I will check that these will be a suitable fixing for these alloys.

[Derek Uzzell]

I expect everybody realised that, in my posting of 13 November 2015 6:46 PM above, I should have written “Up to mid-2014 Citroen Relay...” and”...were introduced in mid-2014...”. Dunno why I wrote “2006” unless I had the 2006 introduction of the X250 ranges in mind at the time. I was pretty sure I’d mistakenly written “2006” at about 11pm last night as I was nodding off to sleep, but I certainly wasn’t going to get up to issue a correction. (Funny how the brain works - or at least how mine does!)

 

I was similarly wary of the 3850kg figure but (as Robinhood has said) it is confirmed for the B-588 model on the Hymer website.

 

http://www.hymer.com/en/models/motorhomes/integrierte/hymermobil-b-class-premiumline/grundrisse-und-daten.html?singleview=435

 

The present situation with the X290 range seems to be that, when a ‘light’ chassis-cab is built to be subsequently converted into a motorhome it leaves the Italian SEVEL factory carrying a Citroen, Fiat or Peugeot data-plate with the MTPLM (Maximum Technically Permitted Laden Mass) figure reading 3650kg. (MTPLM figures will differ for cab-only units that will be fitted later with Al-Ko rear chassis.)

 

This allows motorhome manufacturers to offer the converted vehicle with a MTPLM of 3650kg or lower. The norm is to have the MTPLM at 3500kg (which means that buyers with just a ‘car’ driving-licence entitlement can legally drive the motorhome), with a 3650kg MTPLM as an option if a buyer should want a bit more payload. To conform with ECWVTA (European Community Whole Vehicle Type Approval) practice, when the motorhome has been completed the converter will add their own data-plate that will show an MTPLM of either 3500kg or 3650kg, and the information on the converter’s data-plate overrides the information on the SEVEL factory data-plate.

 

For example, my 2015 Rapido 640 has a Fiat data-plate carrying a 3650kg MTPLM figure and a Rapido data-plate with a 3500kg MTPLM. The Rapido data-plate’s MTPLM figure overrides the Fiat data-plate’s MTPLM and my motorhome was thus UK-registered in Tax Class 11 (Private or light goods vehicles (PLG)). The Rapido 640 can (optionally) be bought with a 3650kg MTPLM and, if I had chosen to do this, my motorhome would have been UK-registered in Tax Class 10 (Private HGV).

 

‘Light’ X290 motorhomes with 16”-diameter wheels have been discussed on this forum in the past

 

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/16-inch-wheels-fitted-on-Fiat-and-Peugeot-Van-conversions/36477/

 

There was a relevant letter in the November 2015 issue of the French motorhome publication “Camping-Car Magazine”. The writer said that he had planned to buy a new Rapido 880F motorhome (based on a Ducato ‘light’ chassis) with the 16”-diameter alloy-wheel option. However, having been told by the Rapido dealer that specifying the bigger wheels would involve the dashboard instrumentation being reprogrammed, he had chosen to have the standard 15” wheels.

 

Having taken delivery of the Rapido the writer found that the motorhome’s speed and distance travelled as shown by the dashboard instruments did not match the speed/distance data provided by his sat-nav, and he had concluded that this discrepancy was connected to the 15” and 16” wheel-size difference. When the sat-nav showed a speed of 113km/h the motorhome’s speedometer showed 120km/h, and having driven 10km according to the sat-nav’s readout the vehicle’s odometer showed 10.6km. Consequently, he believed that his motorhome’s instrumentation had been programmed for the 16” wheel-size. He asked for advice on the effect on the motorhome’s performance if he retrofitted 16”-diameter wheels (and the appropriate tyres) and whether doing this might invalidate the vehicle’s warranty.

 

The editorial reply was that vehicle speedometers must legally not under-read and a speedometer over-reading of 5km/h was commonplace. Swapping the 15” wheels for 16” ones would ‘correct’ over-reading, but there would be a need to keep the speedometer legal (ie. it should not under-read). There was nothing to prevent the writer from having 16” wheels retrofitted as long as this was done professionally (ie. by a Fiat Centre) where approved wheels would be mounted and the dashboard instrumentation reprogrammed so that the speedometer readout would be the same as it had been with 15” wheels. This would ensure that the motorhome’s warranty was not harmed.

 

Now, there’s no doubt that just sticking 16”-diameter wheels and 225/75 R16CP tyres on a ‘light’-chassis X290-based motorhome that has, as standard, 15”-diameter wheels and 215/70 R15CP tyres must (unless counteractive measures are taken) raise the vehicle’s overall gearing and alter speed/distance instrumentation readouts. I presume that, when the 16” wheel factory-fitted option is chosen, instrumentation is reprogrammed as was suggested in the French article, but it would be interesting to know what – if anything – is done about the gearing.

 

My manual-transmission fairly-lightweight Rapido 640 has lowish overall gearing, with 6th gear providing about 25mph/1000rpm. Although it’s plain that the Rapido’s 150bhp 2.3litre motor could handle a higher top gear on many occasions (and I wouldn’t mind a 7th gear) I’m happy enough with things as they are.

 

However, when a motorhome is built on a ‘light’ X290 chassis with, say, a MTPLM of 3850kg, the 130bhp 2.3litre motor and 16” wheels, and the owner loads the vehicle so that the MTPLM is exploited, I would have thought there’s a good chance that the raised overall gearing will impact negatively on the vehicle’s acceleration and hill climbing.

 

 

[Steve928]

Derek Uzzell - 2015-11-14 9:28 AM

 

My manual-transmission fairly-lightweight Rapido 640 has lowish overall gearing, with 6th gear providing about 25mph/1000rpm. Although it’s plain that the Rapido’s 150bhp 2.3litre motor could handle a higher top gear on many occasions (and I wouldn’t mind a 7th gear) I’m happy enough with things as they are.

 

However, when a motorhome is built on a ‘light’ X290 chassis with, say, a MTPLM of 3850kg, the 130bhp 2.3litre motor and 16” wheels, and the owner loads the vehicle so that the MTPLM is exploited, I would have thought there’s a good chance that the raised overall gearing will impact negatively on the vehicle’s acceleration and hill climbing.

 

 

That 25mph/1000rpm does seem lower than I recall people quoting for their Ducato2.3s, I was sure that they were in the 28-29/1000 range. 25/1000 is almost as low as my old 5 speed Peugeot 2.2 and is about what my current 6 speed Peugeot 2.2 manages in 5th gear, with a gear to go.

 

Pure conjecture, but here's a thought. Have Fiat, I wonder, lowered the overall gearing of the light chassis Ducato 2.3 in order that the gearing can accomodate both wheels sizes?

 

So, rather than a Ducato 2.3 light on 16" wheels having too high an overall gearing (with consequent impact on acceleration, hill-climbing, first and reverse ratios being too high, large gaps between gears) this combination, through the adoptation of lower overall gearing, performs similarly to ealier versions on 15" wheels.

 

This would leave the 15" wheeled light chassis Ducato 2.3 with lower gearing than before and lower gearing than the purchaser might want, but would satisfy Fiat's requirements for drivability, reliability etc.

 

As I say, this is just a thought, but it would be useful to get some more figures to be able investigate further.

 

[Derek Uzzell]

I have a July 2013 (ie. pre-X290 and prior to the 16”-wheel option) Fiat “New Ducato” motorhome brochure that provides transmission data. These imply that the 6-speed manual transmission fitted to ‘ladder-frame’ chassis intended for motorhome conversion and fitted with the 2.3litre motor had a ‘Maxi chassis’ 5.231:1 final-drive ratio.

 

The 25mph/1000rpm figure comes from a rev-counter/GPS-readout comparison. After my Hobby (about 29mph/100rpm in top (5th) gear if I remember correctly) it was immediately apparent that the Rapido was much lower geared from 1st right through to 6th.

 

As only a small percentage of ‘light chassis’ Ducato-based motorhomes could be expected to have 16” wheels, it seems unlikely that Fiat would have ‘down-geared’ the X290 to accommodate the few rather than the many.

[Steve928]

Hopefully someone from amongst us can provide the following:

 

1. indicated MPH/1000revs in 6th. gear from a 2012/13 light chassis Ducato 2.3

 

2. indicated MPH/1000revs in 6th. gear from a current light chassis Ducato 2.3 with 16" wheels

 

Along with your 25MPH/1000revs those figures should tell the full story.

 

I've no idea of the 15"/16" split but my local showroom has more light chassis sitting on 16" wheels than 15" ones, so the number may be higher than one would first envisage for an option.

 

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

The comparison should be made between motorhomes built on a Ducato ladder-chassis - panel-van conversions should be ignored. The mph/1000rpm datum also needs taking using a GPS to avoid speedometer optimism - my Rapido’s speedo over-reads by at least 5%.

 

It might be useful to know what brands your local showroom sells, as some motorhome converters (eg. Auto-Trail) have standardised on the 16” wheel-size. As I understand it the 16” wheel option on ‘light’ X290 chassis is peculiar to the Ducato and is unavailable for Boxer and Relays. It’s relatively cheap for ‘commercial’ Ducatos, but would have cost £660 (Fiat alloy wheels) if I’d specfied it for my Rapido.

 

What is really needed is definitive information regarding the gear-ratios of the 6-speed manual transmission fitted to late-model X250 and current X290 motorhomes on the ‘light’ chassis and similar data on X250/X290 Boxers.

[PJay]

When we bought our Mh, we had the choice (Show offer) of alloy wheels.for £1.00 decided not to bother, as more likely to get stolen!

PJay

[Derek Uzzell]

When I bought my Hobby motorhome in 2005 from Germany it came with a Type Approval Certificate of Conformity (CofC) produced by Hobby that gave the vehicle’s forward and final-drive gear ratios. My understanding is that the CofC has a standard format, so - for every Type-Approved motorhome - its CofC should say what gear ratios the motorhome has. (As I haven’t the CofC for my Rapido I can’t be sure that’s still the case.)

 

The following links are to Fiat Professional technical specification files for late-model Ducato X250 vehicles and 2014 X290s

 

http://www.fiatprofessional.bg/fls/brochures/20150628020226.pdf

 

http://www.fiatprofessional.co.uk/uk/CMSEN/Pdf/Ducato_Goods_Tech_Spec_nov14.pdf

 

Both files include manual-transmission gear-ratio information and - for the 2.3litre powerplants - there are no significant differences between those data. Assuming that the information on the Fiat files is correct (!!??) it strongly suggests that the transmission used on late-model Ducato X250s with 2.3litre motor was retained unchanged for X290s with that motor (which is probably what one might expect to have happened).

 

16” wheels were not a Fiat factory option for ‘light chassis’ Ducato X250s, becoming an option only when Ducato X290 was introduced in 2014. The X290 option was right across the board (panel vans, trucks, etc.), so if the transmission ratios for 2.3litre ‘light’ X290s were the same as for the outgoing X250, opting for the X290 16” wheel factory option must increase the overall gearing appreciably.

 

Alternatively, as Steve has conjectured, the data in Fiat’s X290-related file could be wrong and Fiat might have lowered the overall gearing of ‘light chassis’ X290s to allow for the 16”-wheel option. But if that were the case all ‘light chassis’ commercial 2.3litre manual-transmission X290s might be expected to have the lowered gearing.

 

An alternative would be that the standard gearing did not change from X250 to X290, but when the X290 16”-wheel factory option is chosen this triggers a ‘down gearing’ ratio revision to allow for the wheel/tyre-size change. (Whether the 16”-wheel option included different transmission ratios was something I explored unproductively with a Fiat technical guru at an NEC Show.)

 

A July 2013 Fiat Ducato (X250) ‘motorhome’ brochure mentions “Engines custom-made for mobile homes with specific transmission ratios”, while a January 2015 (X290) equivalent brochure says “All gearboxes have also been tested on motorhome version and offer specific ratios that better adapt to this mission” (with “specific ratios” italicised).

 

The July 2013 brochure provides transmission ratios and - for the 2.3litre motors - these differ from those listed in the first Fiat Professional datafile I gave a link to above. The ratios in the brochure and the datafile are the same for gears 1 to 6, but the final-drive ratio in the ‘motorhome’ brochure is said to be 5.231:1 (as opposed to the datafile’s 4.933:1 for non-Maxi chassis) and the reverse-gear ratio in the brochure is said to be 3.417:1 (as opposed to the datafile’s 3.154:1). If all of this information could be relied on, a mid-2013 motorhome based on a Ducato X250 ‘motorhome’ chassis with 2.3litre motor and manual transmission might be expected to have noticeably lower overall gearing than ‘commercial’ Ducato X250 variants and, if the gearing for ‘motorhome’ chassis did not alter when X290 came in, that will still be so today.

 

 

[Rayjsj]

PJay - 2015-11-15 6:59 PM

 

When we bought our Mh, we had the choice (Show offer) of alloy wheels.for £1.00 decided not to bother, as more likely to get stolen!

PJay

I doubt that is the case these days, as nearly all vehicles already come with alloy wheels fitted as standard, and a complete set can be bought for as little as $325 (pounds). I think the same applies to car radios, too much trouble to steal. What were they like? cant have been much at 25p each ! :-(

I bought a set of alloys for an Autocruise i owned, as i said 325 pounds from Tyresave, the new tyres fitted to them cost more...Conti Vanco campers, over 400 pounds. But it did look nice.

Sold the old wheels with tyres on e-bay.

[PJay]

Rayjsj - 2015-11-16 11:48 AM

 

PJay - 2015-11-15 6:59 PM

 

When we bought our Mh, we had the choice (Show offer) of alloy wheels.for £1.00 decided not to bother, as more likely to get stolen!

PJay

I doubt that is the case these days, as nearly all vehicles already come with alloy wheels fitted as standard, and a complete set can be bought for as little as $325 (pounds). I think the same applies to car radios, too much trouble to steal. What were they like? cant have been much at 25p each ! :-(

I bought a set of alloys for an Autocruise i owned, as i said 325 pounds from Tyresave, the new tyres fitted to them cost more...Conti Vanco campers, over 400 pounds. But it did look nice.

Sold the old wheels with tyres on e-bay.

 

Ray they where proper alloys. At that time 10 years ago, they where npt a common fitment as now. Also was a show "Special" to attract custom, as you say not worth stealing now !! Did see a car last week jacked up with all wheels missing though!! So guess some one wanted them

PJay