Banner Batteries Knackered After < 6 Months

[Derek Uzzell]

veletron - 2015-12-07 9:52 PM

 

So, whats best then? These banners will do for this winter but going forward?

 

2x trojan 6V T-145 in series? £150ea are these gonna like the 66A my inverter pulls with kettle connected??

 

Nigel

 

I shouldn’t really need to say this (at least not to you) but with a 12V system using two series-connected 6V batteries, if you ‘lose’ one of the batteries you’ll have an unusable system. With two parallel-connected 12V batteries, if one of them starts to under-perform badly and needs to be disconnected, the other battery would still provide 12V.

 

In your position I think I’d take aandncaravan’s experience and enthusiasm for Bosch/Varta batteries into account and opt for a pair of them.

[Steve928]

Derek Uzzell - 2015-12-08 9:13 AM

 

I shouldn’t really need to say this (at least not to you) but with a 12V system using two series-connected 6V batteries, if you ‘lose’ one of the batteries you’ll have an unusable system. With two parallel-connected 12V batteries, if one of them starts to under-perform badly and needs to be disconnected, the other battery would still provide 12V.

 

I think that a 12v battery comprises 6 x 2.2v cells connected in series, so in theory housing those cells in 2 seperate casings shouldn't notably highten the risk of battery failure. The 6v Trojans are very popular in the boating world, combined into 12v house battery banks.

 

By the way I did eventually gets the caps of my very lightly used one year old Banner Energy Bull and it took 400ml of fluid to bring the levels back up to their marks. This battery has been used primarily as a reserve and has never been subjected to either deep discharge or prolonged charging, so I think the myth that they might be maintenance free has been firmly dispelled!

[Brambles]

You need to aim to keep currents below C/5 so for 66 Amps you need minimum 330Ah if you want a decent service life, as well as keeping depth of discharges well below 50%. Aim for 60% soc (40% dod).

You also need the faciliity to recharge reasonably quickly e.g next day.

If your solar panels cannot fully recharge in one day then you risk slowly lowering the SOC every day to the pit the batteries sulphate badly as never getting anywhere near full charge while in use.

Using Batteries for Toasters, kettles, hairdryers etc is a very expensive option.

The Slow cooker also could be an issue although lower max current as will take away some of the solar power from recharging the batteries during the day.

 

You said you had 3 x 85Ah banner in another vehicle and they were fine. Was it with similar loads and charging regimes. If so maybe that extra 55Ah capacity was enough to get you out of the rapid degradation of batteries zone and all you need to is fit three batteries.

 

[Tracker]

veletron - 2015-12-07 11:36 PM

 

Tracker - 2015-12-07 10:02 PM

 

At the risk of sounding daft - wouldn't it be easier to use the gas hob to heat a kettle of water?

 

Way way less convenient! and in a camper van with limited work surfaces, not having to lift the hob cover is handy. I also run a toaster off it, and a slow cooker! Much much better quality toast from a toaster vs the grill - I always burn it under the grill - its also significantly quicker!

 

Like you say --> "No right or wrong ways - just different."

 

Nigel

 

Fair enough - different but never wrong!!

 

In your situation and as they are not that expensive I would consider opting for three or preferably four Bosch or Varta batteries to supply that sort of wattage - assuming you have the space to store them?

[Brian Kirby]

I think there are too many unknowns to draw conclusions.

 

We know there are 2 x 110Ah batteries. We know there is a 200W solar panel. We know there is an alternator. We know there is a 15A mains charger. We know there is a Sterling B2B. We know there is an inverter. We know there is an electric kettle, a toaster and a slow cooker. We know the batteries show signs of terminal damage.

 

But we do not know what type of solar panel, what its actual output is under what conditions, what regulator is fitted, nor how connected. We do not know the output from the alternator, nor how long it is typically run. We do not know the make or pattern of use of the charger. We do not know what type of inverter is fitted, its capacity, how far from the batteries it is mounted, how it is wired in, or whether it is isolated when not being used. We do not know how the B2B is integrated with the three other means of charging. We do not know the Wattage of the kettle, toaster, or slow cooker, how frequently these are used, or for how long. We do not know veletron's pattern of use of his van, whether there is radio/TV, whether or how he also charges laptop/tablet/phone, or how often or for how long. We don't know the lighting load. We don't know how long the heater or water heater is in use.

 

In short, we know some, but not all, of the potential consumers, but not their actual combined consumption in kWh over 24 hours, and we know there are various means of charging the leisure batteries, but not how much they all produce, when they are used, or for how long. Above all, we do not know how deeply the batteries have been discharged, how often, or how quickly they were re-charger, or how fully. Fog? :-D

[veletron]

Hi

 

Generally speaking the inverter is only used in the summer months, or when stopping in winter for a quick cup of tea!! Folks on canal boats use inverters to supply KW's off lead-acid cells, but I suspect they also have loads of the blighters not being short for space etc.

 

On the roof I have 200W of solar - which achieves almost nothing in the winter! I have a 50A sterling B2B for on-the-move charging.

 

The 3x batteries in my old van were 3 years old and going strong, inverter, B2B was shifted to new van and I have more solar on this van. I used the kettle and toaster in equal measure on the prev van!

 

Agree regards the series connected 6V batteries, but they are no more likely to fail than 12V batteries - the handy thing with twin 12V is that if one goes fauly (either high or low resistance), you still have the other one - with 6V its game over. Solution is 4x6V wires series/parallel - which, if you have the space is probably the holy grail.

 

Incidentally, this is the reason you should not simply parallel up 12V batteries with no fuse between them, if a cell in one goes SC, that creates a ~10V battery which will promptly perform a rapid discharge of the 'good' battery - leaving you *****red.

 

I have been reading up on equalisation charging recently - as a way of de-sulphating a battery, and ensuring that the voltage in each of the cells within is the same. Most motorhome chargers don't include such a mechanism, likely for good reason, equalisation charging requires 15.5-16V for a 12V open flooded lead-acid - which might damage some of the 12V electronics on board. I'll try this on my bench PSU.

 

After charging via mains the other day for 48hrs, batteries drawing minimal current, I took my new specific gravity meter to them 1.210 was the result across all cells, which is about 65% SOC.

 

This is the root of my issue with the banners nailed - I dont seem to be able to get them above 65-70% SOC, and given that I only take them down to 40% SOC that leaves just 30% usable capacity. Its no wonder they appear to drain quickly. Guy at banner was right about the OC rested voltage being an unreliable measure of SOC. OC voltage was 12.85V at the time I measured them 24hrs after disconnecting the charger! Whether this is the batteries or the charger I don't know.

 

Nigel

[keninpalamos]

I have 2...................I give up this is doing my head in (^) :'(

[Jaytee]

Interesting post ??. I have one older and one newer leisure batt so I'll now replace the two with new Bosch or Vartar. Many thanks.

[Derek Uzzell]

Steve928 - 2015-12-08 10:02 AM

 

...By the way I did eventually gets the caps of my very lightly used one year old Banner Energy Bull and it took 400ml of fluid to bring the levels back up to their marks. This battery has been used primarily as a reserve and has never been subjected to either deep discharge or prolonged charging, so I think the myth that they might be maintenance free has been firmly dispelled!

 

Although some on-line battery retailers (and - from what you’ve said earlier - Bailey Caravans) may say that Energy Bull batteries are ‘maintenance-free’, Banner’s Technical Guide defines the range as "Maintenance-friendly – easy to open and MIN/MAX marking on the transparent housing”

 

RoadPro (who have marketed Energy Bull batteries for quite a few years) include the following in their website’s FAQ section:

 

Q) Do I need to check my Banner batteries?

 

A) Banner “Running Bull” AGM batteries are completely maintenance free. “Energy Bull” batteries don’t require maintenance in normal use; however, ideally you should check the electrolyte levels a couple of times during the first year in order to ensure that they are being charged correctly. From then on, it’s a good idea to check them once a year.

 

Although unscrewing an Energy Bull’s filler caps may prove difficult and the choice of a non-standard vent-tube seems bloody-minded, it’s really not Banner’s fault that wrong information exists about the Energy Bull range’s ‘maintainability’.

[veletron]

keninpalamos - 2015-12-08 5:38 PM

 

I have 2...................I give up this is doing my head in (^) :'(

 

Indeed, mine too!! Best solution is to just enjoy the van, and swap the batteries when they no longer achieve the necessary!

 

Nigel

[veletron]

Brian Kirby - 2015-12-08 1:29 PM

 

I think there are too many unknowns to draw conclusions.

 

....................

 

 

Indeed, and that is probably true of most folks issues with batteries and the reason why we put up with sub-par products and the reason vendors get away with flogging us sub par products. Roll on LiFeP04 for reasonable money - that's only 5 years in the future depending on your budget. I would land 500 notes for one today to relieve myself of the hassle and inconsistency of lead-acid.

 

- But we do not know what type of solar panel

 

Actually 3 panels (voltage matched) wired in parallel to a 20A epsolar MPPT regulator with a nice remote screen. Highest current ever seen this 'summer' was 15A (into the batteries). Banners are stared together via a ground post and a positive post using 4AWG cable via resettable fuses.

 

- We do not know the output from the alternator, nor how long it is typically run.

 

Stock fiat X290 whatever that might be, weekend runs of 2-4 hours out fri, back sun (until I can retire!). B2B connected via same 4AWG cable (bought a load of welding cable!), soldered ring terms on the ends. B2B is under passenger seat, feet into it 2ft, feed to batteries is 4ft.

 

- We do not know the make or pattern of use of the charger.

 

Hardly ever use mains charger - since I almost always 'wild camp'

 

- We do not know what type of inverter is fitted, its capacity, how far from the batteries it is mounted, how it is wired in, or whether it is isolated when not being used.

 

< 2ft from batteries, 4AWG cable, back wired via 16A switchover relay to all sockets. 1KW modified sine wave ebay special, owned for 5 years - been great, not isolated beyond its own on/off switch which just turns off the internals. ammeter indicates 10mA 'off' current.

 

- We do not know the Wattage of the kettle, toaster, or slow cooker, how frequently these are used, or for how long.

 

- Toaster 750W, once/day, summer only

- Kettle 700W couple of times a day (summer, only roadside stops winter) - apart from when my mother came on holiday with us - never knew that one person could drink so much tea! Maybe that's what killed the batteries, mother making tea every 10 minutes!!

 

- whether there is radio/TV, whether or how he also charges laptop/tablet/phone, or how often or for how long.

 

-In short, we know some, but not all, of the potential consumers, but not their actual combined -

consumption in kWh over 24 hours

 

But we do!! Nasa BM1 is a brilliant bit of kit tells me exactly net take/gain of the leisure batteries. Last weekend, I used 49AH.

 

- Above all, we do not know how deeply the batteries have been discharged, how often, or how quickly they were re-charger, or how fully.

 

Never below 40% SoC, and generally recharged soon after by either solar, or moving onwards.

 

Fog?

 

On that we can agree!

 

The only way I will ever know if the banners are good/bad/average is by trying another brand (and reporting back in in 6 months time! I suspect I will always remain disappointed with today's battery technology!

 

Prob time to draw this thread to a closure!

 

Nigel

[aandncaravan]

veletron - 2015-12-07 9:52 PM

 

So, whats best then? These banners will do for this winter but going forward?

 

 

Nigel

 

 

Nigel, There is a battery technology which is not new but fairly young which might work well for you? That is the Northstar Ultra thin plate PureLead technology where they claim a battery giving 2,200amps for engine Starting will also Deep discharge down to 80% and give 400 cycles at this depth of discharge.

 

At a shallow 30 - 40% discharge, 800 plus cycles are available. More details here : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/battery-technology.php

 

 

As you know, it used to be the case that Starter batteries had 'thin' plates and Leisure batteries had 'thick' plates. This new technology uses Ultra thin plate Starter battery technology yet can out perform some of the best thick plate Traction batteries.

It's big advantage for you is that they are more likely to cope with the stresses of the B2B and an Inverter? If they have a 2,200amp discharge capability they might cope better with the 85amps of a Kettle?

However, I am not sure anything can cope with Kettle and Cups of Tea every ten minutes!

You might need to manage the battery discharge, but they should cope better than general technology batteries?

Many battery manufacturers recommend a battery bank to be around 5 times the maximum current draw, i.e 1,500Ah to cope with a 280amp (3,000watt) Invertor, for maximum battery life? So if you regularly draw lots of amps from the Inverter, you might wish to consider maybe a 2 x factor with these Purelead batteries?

 

They won't fit most Motorhome Owners profile, because of the special charging characteristic which are said to be even more fussy than some AGM, however, the way you use your Motorhome might be a fair compromise?

 

We would suggest that this move towards Starter battery thin plate or ultra thin plate PureLead technology might be more cost effective longer term than your suggested alternative?

 

 

Glad the myth that the Banners Batteries are not Maintenance free has gone, but some companies are still saying they are. Derek mentioned one of the biggest Banner Battery retailers, but more worrying is that they are still saying they are safe for inside the Motorhome without a vent when they are clearly anything but.

 

 

 

 

 

[audiseller]

EZA Lithium iron - sorted!

[aandncaravan]

I can see why you would say that. With a £3,000 price tag and a life of 10 years for 130Ah they are an absolute bargain. I'll take three please sir.

 

Oh no, wait a minute, um, didn't my two Makita Drill Lithium batteries only last 18 months?

And the DeWalt Impact Gun battery last just 2 years?

And didn't the Lithium battery in my Laptop get a bit sad at just over 3 years old?

Isn't there also a lot of discussion on the Tesla car batteries life time being a lot shorter than expected?

 

So £3,000 spread over 5 years is a running cost of £600 a year? Isn't that equivalent to six Varta Silver LFD90's EVERY year or 30 x LFD90's over the 5 years?

 

Let me see that's a really hard one. We do get nearly 3 years out of the SnapOn Impact Gun Lithium batteries though?

 

Yes, yes I am definitely in for 3.

 

 

[audiseller]

aandncaravan - 2015-12-12 9:34 PM

 

I can see why you would say that. With a £3,000 price tag and a life of 10 years for 130Ah they are an absolute bargain. I'll take three please sir.

 

Oh no, wait a minute, um, didn't my two Makita Drill Lithium batteries only last 18 months?

And the DeWalt Impact Gun battery last just 2 years?

And didn't the Lithium battery in my Laptop get a bit sad at just over 3 years old?

Isn't there also a lot of discussion on the Tesla car batteries life time being a lot shorter than expected?

 

So £3,000 spread over 5 years is a running cost of £600 a year? Isn't that equivalent to six Varta Silver LFD90's EVERY year or 30 x LFD90's over the 5 years?

 

Let me see that's a really hard one. We do get nearly 3 years out of the SnapOn Impact Gun Lithium batteries though?

 

Yes, yes I am definitely in for 3.

 

 

These units are Lithium Iron technology so no direct comparison. They also will not be knackered after heavy discharge, they will go down to 5% with no problems and rapidly recharge from the alternator. It does the job of 2 lead acid batteries so a significant weight saving and don't require to be fitted in a vented space as no gassing or heat produced. Another external locker freed up. Where are you getting 5 year lifespan from and why would you need three?

[aandncaravan]

You are obviously well versed with the marketing data, however, LiFePO4 batteries are used by Dewalt.

The other Lithium technologies were thrown in because the lifetime claims of lithium-Ion and Lithium-Iron are rarely achieved in real life.

 

The LiFePO4 unit often marketed as suitable in a Motorhome, is the EZA 130, which is claimed is a substitute for two conventional batteries. It has a drain limitation of 100 amps max or damage will result. That damage will have a far greater financial impact on the EZA 130 than on the two PureLead batteries, which would handling 'only' 50 amps per battery.

 

 

As you say the Lithium unit will discharge down to 5% without major issue, but what the marketing doesn't say is that if you do go below 2v per cell. SEVERE damage will result.

Ok down to 5%, but go below 4% and you can kiss goodbye to the battery pack.

 

They have very tight charging limits. Charge above the ideal and there will be life shortening effects.

 

A modern maintenance free wet Lead Acid battery does not need to be fitted in a vented space either. Nor does a Gel Acid battery.

 

Not sure you are correct about your statement, "or heat produced", as all the technical info I have read on LiFePO4 talks about Heat generation as part of both Charge and Discharge phase. Our DeWalt certainly gets warm.

 

Wikipedia says LiFePO4 is a- "....potential replacement for lead-acid batteries in many applications such as automotive and solar applications, PROVIDED charging systems are adapted not to damage the LFP cells through excessive charging voltages, temperature-based voltage compensation, equalisation attempts or continuous trickle charging".

Clearly some potentially lifetime shortening issues there.

 

Particularly, you will note, the one about, "continuous trickle charging", a practise that many motorhome owners like to do by leaving the vehicles on long term EHU?

We are aware of one purchaser of these units who was not informed of this limitation at purchase time.

 

Wikipedia continues, "ensure no cell can be discharged below a voltage of 2.0 V or SEVERE damage will occur in most instances".

 

My point is that, as shown above, LiFePO4 has a number of limitations that need to be very carefully controlled to ensure anything like half potential is achieved.

 

This is new, little understood (in terms of long term life) technology that may or may not achieve the marketing claims when used in the typical motorhome environment.

If it doesn't, and we don't think they will average more than 5 years, it may turn out to be a very expensive trial.

 

We repair Motorhome Charger units from all manufacturers from around the World. Typically a Schaudt Elektroblock EBL99 or Sargent charger repair is around £130. We have shipped replacement units out to stranded people on holiday in Spain.

What would happen if the EZA130 power pack charger failed does the warranty cover shipment to you on holiday?

Who would repair it if it was outside the warranty?

What would it cost?

What would happen if the charger didn't fail, but charged at a too high voltage or allowed too deep a discharge, i.e. the control circuitry went just slightly awry. Resulting in total destruction of the batteries?

 

Does the Warranty address all these issues for the potential 10 year life of the batteries?

 

When the potential failure of the control circuitry might cause catastrophic failure of £2,000 worth of batteries it needs to be really, really excellent electronics.

Is it?

 

 

A couple of Exide G80's at £280 with replacement at 5 years have the same durability and cycle life. There are other batteries that are only greater cost yet perform even better.

A Victron Energy Longlife Gel has 4,500 cycles it does not gas.

 

Both solutions have the same amount of Ah power potential as an EZA 130. But at just a few hundred pounds versus a few thousand.

So the lifetime 'advantage' of LiFePO4 is easily addressed by existing technology and without the huge financial penalty if things did go wrong. That assumes the EZA130 will reach a 2,000 cycle life.

 

 

However, you would need 2 Exide G80's, so LiFePO4 does win out on the ability to save the space of one battery. Which might be worth the £3,000 tag for some.

 

The risk of failure in a Motorhome environment, and the financial consequences of such a failure, are so high.

Just imagine what would happen if it did fail in 3 years time, what would you do?

This is a purpose made, built in unit. Can you just go to the local auto electrician to whip out the EZA130, throw in a Varta battery to get you through?

I can't imagine how I would communicate to a garage in a Foreign clime, who had maybe never seen an EZA130, what the issue was.

 

 

Sorry but I don't get it?

 

As per our usual approach, where the marketing takes the most Optimistic line, we take the other end of the scale, as you might expect with a business dealing with broken batteries and charger units every day.

 

 

[audiseller]

I suppose it's the same with all new technology in that if you wait until it improves you will probably take years to get on the ladder. I have been there many times in the past with computers, TVs, cameras, recording equipment and even cars. I like having the use of cutting edge technology before the masses.

 

If I can get somewhere between the warranted 5 years and 10 years I will be well pleased not to have had the hassle of conventional leisure batteries which are slow to charge, do not give up all of their power and are heavy. They also discharge when left for any length of time without a constant charge whereas the EZA will lose less than 3% in a year. So as long as it is left in a charged state it is always ready to go.

 

As for reliability just read the foregoing thread and what your business is founded on. Should the worst occur a conventional battery(s) can be plugged in while the EZA is repaired.

 

I have no doubts that my wild camping in 2016 and thereafter will be greatly enhanced and will easily outstay other non-similarly equipped vans.

[aandncaravan]

Sorry, didn't realise you had actually bought one. :$

[audiseller]

aandncaravan - 2015-12-14 3:43 PM

 

Sorry, didn't realise you had actually bought one. :$

 

That's OK :-D

[Rayjsj]

Why didnt i see this thread BEFORE i bought Banner leisure batteries, my story much like the OPs , bought 2 year old very lightly used Autotrail V Line 600, decided to add a second leisure battery for occasional wild camping, checked original battery, Banner 110ah, so, bought correct cable loom which includes 20amp fuse protection, ordered matching Banner battery from Alpha batteries. And fitted it, Re- calibrated Sargent charging unit to reflect 220ah. For 3 months all is fine, Van is left connected to EHU at home to provide maintenance charge, Went away last Sunday, when removing Duvalays from under bed box/battery compart ment noticed that they were warm ?? One battery VERY hot, checked levels....bone dry, yet i checked fluid levels once a month, last check it was fine. Removed fuse from that battery (original that came with van) and checked the other one, this one had 3 cells that were down to the plates, took 3 litres of distilled water to top both batteries up ! How on Earth can they say that these batteries are maintenance free ! They are NOT. Battery that was dry is now not holding a charge, and charger goes upto 15 amps try to charge it. It is Kaput !

Will not buy another Banner Battery,

Like Tracker, i will manage with cheaper less well known batteries, but with usable warranties.

 

Luckily Both leisure batteries had breather pipes fitted, otherwise we would have been gassed !

[ChrisD]

Hi all

 

I bought a Banner 110ah in May from one of the major retailers.

I have never mistreated it and now it drops to 11.9 volts within a week or so

completely isolated! I have recharged it three times with the same result.

I'm going to test the warranty later today. Very disappointed.

[Tracker]

aandncaravan - 2015-12-12 8:10 PM

 

However, I am not sure anything can cope with Kettle and Cups of Tea every ten minutes!

You might need to manage the battery discharge, but they should cope better than general technology batteries?

 

 

We installed a special multi purpose device in our motorhome for tea making - we call it a 'kettle' and it works off of the magic of a thing called 'gas'.

 

It was cheap, works every time and never lets us down - what's not to like?

 

There are some things that you can't work on gas and an inverter is needed if you can't live without them, but I do find it hard to understand why anyone would work the batteries harder than they need to?

[Spireite]

I'm sorry if I'm in the minority but our two Banner batteries are three years old and we've had no problems with them despite us rarely using EHU - 4 weeks this Summer in France and only on hook up once.

 

I top up the battery with ionised water every few months and they seem as good as the day I bought them.

 

Like Tracker we don't flog them to death, the gas and kettle take a hammering at the brew up times, and after changing to LED lights some years ago (just to mention they were very cheap bulbs off Ebay and all still working okay) we find the 80w Solar panel does a good job of charging both leisure batteries and the starter battery which probably helps to keep them in good condition.

 

There may be better battery options but as I've not had problems with mine I wonder why so many of you seem to be the 'unlucky' ones.

 

[Rayjsj]

Spireite - 2016-09-15 9:57 AM

 

I'm sorry if I'm in the minority but our two Banner batteries are three years old and we've had no problems with them despite us rarely using EHU - 4 weeks this Summer in France and only on hook up once.

 

I top up the battery with ionised water every few months and they seem as good as the day I bought them.

 

Like Tracker we don't flog them to death, the gas and kettle take a hammering at the brew up times, and after changing to LED lights some years ago (just to mention they were very cheap bulbs off Ebay and all still working okay) we find the 80w Solar panel does a good job of charging both leisure batteries and the starter battery which probably helps to keep them in good condition.

 

There may be better battery options but as I've not had problems with mine I wonder why so many of you seem to be the 'unlucky' ones.

Have you thought perhaps it is YOU who are the lucky one ?

Dont use an inverter, as yourself i topped them up once a month, not easy as the caps need a special tool to remove them, I made a workable substitute. But ponder this ! Why make and market a special tool to remove the battery plugs, YET market your batteries as Maintenance Free ?? They definately are not. And IMO they are not very reliable either, considering their premium price.

 

[pepe63xnotuse]

Hi Ray..

 

As both of your batteries needed so much distilled, is it not possible that it's the charger that's at fault?(..especially as you say you keep it hooked-up)..

 

I'd certainly consider getting it looked at before I stuck new (replacements, under warranty?)batteries in it.