Banner Batteries Knackered After < 6 Months

[veletron]

I ran another experiment last night, both batteries running together, supplying a 10A load for around 7 hours. Total AH removed was 70, backed up my BM100 AH counter.

 

Load voltage at end of the test was 11.6V. Voltage of both batteries after resting for 2 hours post-test was 12.13V (tested individually). I used this chart that takes electrolyte temperature into account:

 

http://www.wheelhorseforum.com/topic/37846-voltage-reading-for-a-freshly-charged-12v-battery/

 

12.13V comes out to a SOC post test of ~38%. Therefore that 70AH I removed accounted for 62% of the capacity which gives me a total capacity from the two batteries of 112AH.

 

Conclusions:

 

- The condition of the batteries is about the same all-told, end of test rested voltage on both was 12.13V

- There is a massive difference between load voltage, no-load voltage and rested voltage, even with loads of just 500mA

- The BM100's SOC meter (indicated in %) is pretty accurate - it said 35% SOC at end of test

- My banners appear to have a capacity around half the stated capacity

- The SOC charts online all differ from one-another!

- Temperature matters when interpreting SOC!

- Whether this is 'normal' eg: same experiments on a brand new banner give better result is unknown

- Knowing how everything these days is rated using figures plucked out of the sky, I would not mind betting that this is the norm.

 

Roll on the day when LiFePO4 batteries are a couple of hundred rather than a couple of thousand... Then I can ditch lead-acid for good.

 

It would be interesting to see some more results based on the same test. If anyone wishes to carry out their own version of my experiment, details below. Might assist in highlighting one brand over another in the real-world.

 

You will need:

 

A) A motorhome with some leisure batteries

B) A 10A load (a mains inverter with an (old-skool) 100W table lamp/lead lamp connected gives this approx load after conversion losses)

C) An accurate multimeter

D) Some time - My test ran for 7 hours

 

Method:

 

1) put the batteries on mains charge ideally for 24hours

2) disconnect the mains charger, disconnect the batteries from the van

3) After a couple of hours, measure the no-load rested voltage [and note it]

4) Reconnect batteries to van as necessary such that 10A load may be connected

5) If you have a solar panel, either remove the fuse, or do step 6 during darkness

6) Attach the load, wait 7 hours

7) Measure the on-load battery voltage at the terminals of one battery [and note it]

8) Disconnect load, disconnect batteries from van

9) After 2 hours, measure the no-load rested voltage at the terminals of each battery [and note it]

 

My Results:

 

Battery Make/Model: Banner 110AH (95751)

Number of batteries: 2 == K20 discharge rate 5A per battery

Age of batteries (length of time in service): 5 months

No-Load Pre test rested voltage: 12.8V

End of test load voltage: 11.6V

No-Load Voltage after 2hrs rest: 12.13V (I mean no-load - ie leisure battery fuses removed)

Temperature when above measurement taken: 10C

End of test SOC (as per linked chart): 38%

 

I have decided to just run with these. They are not great, but my feeling is this it the nature of the product rather than a specific 'fault' with it. Nothing matches the product labelling these days, and I don't have the appetite to push my case, go through the hassle of obtaining replacements, only to find that those replacements are no better. Additionally, both batteries checked out the same on my recent test. I will try a different brand next time, these have sufficient (proven) capacity to see me through the winter ski season.

 

Nigel

[aandncaravan]

Took a photo of these failed Energy Bull batteries removed today. Just on 2 years old.

Dry as a bone as can be seen in the attached photo.

Came to us as the Mains 240v Charger damaged.

Alternator was replaced last month by a Fiat Dealer after the Ignition Warning light came on. Dealer didn't spot the 2 batteries were dry, but did test them and proclaimed them good. Maybe he wanted a second chance to bill them £710!!!

Only 2 days after the Alternator was replaced did the owner spot the 240v charger wasn't charging.

 

Owner regularly checks charging voltage and is adamant he has never seen any abnormal voltages, just shorter usability than usual, so the batteries have not been destroyed by over charge. In anycase the Starter battery was good and that also gets charged by both charging systems, Alternator and 230v mains.

 

When we saw the make/type and knew they were more than 12 months old we were pretty sure what we would find when we removed the caps, hence going in there. Owner has never removed them, assumed that, like most modern batteries they were maintenance free.

 

I know there are a lot of fans of these batteries out there, but all the best batteries these days are maintenance free, to fit this type of unit in a Motorhome where access is often poor seems a bit wrong to me. Even when access is good, trying to pour Distilled water into each Cell is a messy task at best.

 

There were no pipes on the vents, "special type, couldn't fit the old ones...". We poured a full Coffee Cup of water into one cell without seeing it rise above the Plates.

That really is an awful lot of dangerous gas that has escaped those cells. "Is that what made that funny smell, Brian?".

 

By the time the charger had been repaired and the batteries replaced a couple of hours had elapsed. Despite a 5 hour drive to us, the Batteries tested at 10.3v and 10.6v.

 

No idea how the Fiat Dealer who swapped the Alternator determined the batteries were good.

 

So with a bill for £710 for the Alternator from Fiat, two Varta Silver LFD90's at £89 each and a charger repair at £130 there wasn't any change out of £1,000.

 

They were not happy, their gripe was that the battery supplier didn't tell them they were not maintenance free. No labels on the batteries to say they needed regular topping up.

In their defence, they correctly pointed out "it has been nearly 20 years since we had to regularly top up a battery on the Car".

As already stated we are not big fans of these units. Now there are another two people.

 

Sorry can't attach the photo, it is too big, so posted at the bottom of the website Battery Charger Faults page : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/battery-charging-faults.php

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

But the actual fault was a lack of maintenance of the batteries, not an inherent fault with the batteries themselves. Had your client been sold any make of conventional, open vented, flooded, lead acid battery, the outcome would have been the same. Your client has my sympathy, and it would have been helpful for the seller to point out the need to top up, but it is equally possible that he would think "everyone knows that, don't they"? In fairness, this was not a Banner fault, they sell batteries of all types, some requiring maintenance, some not. It was the consequence of ignorance. The omission of a breather pipe was, IMO, completely unforgivable, and points to ignorance also on the part of the seller. So, without carrying any banner (pun intended! :-)) for the manufacturer, I think you are being unfair in sticking any culpability on him.

[Steve928]

There's a note on Banner's website that says that the de-gassing hose and elbow connector are 'not included in the delivery' which seems somewhat of an ommision on their part, however the battery remains permanently vented through the 'de-gassing slit' that the missing elbow would fit over. In use my Banner, without elbow and pipe, has shown no evidence of any fluid loss or overflow through its breather.

 

Bailey, who fit uniquely Banner Energy Bull leisure batteries, declare it '100% maintenance free' although I can't see anything on the battery itself or the Banner website that agrees with that claim.

 

One year on the fluid level looks fine viewed through the translucent casing but I tried to remove the caps anyway, however my usual one pence piece in an adjustable spanner isn't man enough and they wouldn't budge despite griving off a loud crack. I'll need to fabricate a special tool to get any further..

 

 

[aandncaravan]

Brian, I am not sure that is an assumption you can make on the cause of the premature failure?

Did the fluid loss cause the failure, or did battery failure lead to excess gassing and fluid loss?

I saw the batteries and the environment, but it is not a question I can answer.

That is an awful lot of lost fluid, as Steve points out, his battery has suffered little.

The Banner website says fluid loss will be less than 4g/Ah.

 

In anycase, as Steve928 points out, the filler caps are really difficult to remove, maintenance is all but impossible to do.

We have made up a special metal tool for these batteries that is effectively 2 x Washers welded together at right angles so that all four slots in the Cap are engaged at the same time to give double the purchase. This is then welded to a socket. It still requires a lot of energy to remove them and we still chew up the odd one that refuses to budge.

 

I think any BEB owner that suffers Battery failure where fluid loss occurred would have a pretty good argument for not having carried out maintenance, just as Steve currently can't.

 

This was a lightly used Motorhome, I would not have expected any where near that amount of fluid loss in 2 years.

 

By contrast, Mr and Mrs Warren were in today to resolve a Calira 38/20 issue. They had two Itallian Vipiemme batteries, 17 months old, with 'Top Up' caps. Once again they assumed that all modern Motorhome batteries were now Maintenance free.

You might argue that is from Ignorance, yet the Warren's have a Boat that has a big bank of 'open' batteries. Access is awkward and topping up is done using a mirror, a home made wooden 'Dipstick' and a Squeegy bottle of Distilled Water with a rubber tube. So the man is well clued up about batteries and battery technology.

 

When we checked the fluid levels in the Vipiemme batteries they were about 15mm low but still well above the plates. This is a Motorhome in which they have lived for 8 months of this year so a lot of use.

 

That is the kind of fluid drop I would expect on that age and type of battery (which appears to be similar construction to the Banner).

Note that despite never being previously undone the Vipiemme Top-Up caps all released easily with a 2p Coin.

 

The Banner website says the Energy Bull Fluid loss is less than 4g/Ah with 'Topping up' via Distilled Water. So, if the batteries are used, fluid will be lost and therefore designed to be topped Up.

They are not Maintenance free. See : http://www.bannerbatterien.com/backend/datasheets/EN/010959010101.pdf

 

 

On the gassing vent pipe fiasco, I agree with you it is unforgivable. The gassing elbow Vent Pipe is special to Banner. An Exide, Varta, Yuasa one won't fit.

So if you retro fit one of these BEB batteries in your vehicle you have to obtain the BEB elbow, which as Steve notes is not supplied with the Battery and maybe the reason his is currently 'open'?

 

It is quite common for us to see these batteries installed where the owner has tried to Sellotape the Exide style elbow pipe to the BEB because of this. Very rarely attached properly..

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tracker]

For topping up batteries I use a good old fashioned hydrometer with a rubber bulb, having first checked the SG of each cell to see if thereare any potential duds, no spills just fluid where you squirt it.

If only everything in life were so reliable!

 

Like this, except its probably plastic these days!

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Maypole-Battery-Hydrometer-Tester/dp/B003SPP3B0

[veletron]

Hi

 

So, I contacted banner in the UK, and they forwarded my comments to their HQ.

 

Their own standard rundown test is based on the 20Hr rate (so 5A for a 100AH battery), they take them right down to 10.5V while on load from 'fully charged'. They are considered to have 'passed' if capacity is 70% of stated for the given discharge rate. For my '110AH' batteries, the 5H rate means 75AH capacity, 20H means 100AH capacity and 100hr discharge rate gives 110AH capacity.

 

Taking the batteries down to 10.5V would knacker them anyway since that equates to a SoC post test of close to zero.

 

The guy in the UK said their test is a 4A load left on for 24hrs or until the voltage falls to 10.7V - this would also knacker the battery - I dont know what they do post test if the battery is deemed to have 'passed' - send the now knackered battery back to the customer?! ;-)

 

Re topping up, I have topped these up once, and my old batteries up several times. In fact, the three sets of batteries that my old van (owned for 7 years) had in it took an entire 4L container of distilled water in total.

 

The Austrian banner guy reckoned that my banners might not have been fully charged. I am aware that modern 3/4 stage chargers will prematurely switch to a lower voltage before the battery is full, this is done to reduce gassing (electrolyte loss), but the low voltage has a side effect of seriously reducing the current. If the banner guy is right then getting a battery from 80% to 100% SoC might take days. He suggested that I charge at 16V to get to 100% SoC (obviously disconnected from the rest of the van). If I am gonna do this then I would do it in the garage or outdoors. Batteries would gas. I'd need to use my current limited bench PSU to achieve this anyway. High charging voltages are sometimes used for cell equalisation - to get the same charge state over each of the 6 cells in a 12V battery. I believe that the Sterling B2B remote control can command the unit to do this - but I never bought the remote.

 

The only true way to measure SoC is via a specific gravity meter anyway - likely far more accurate than measuring the rested open circuit voltage (which I was already aware was a bit hit/miss).

 

My banners date codes are both BCBFE which is week 12, 2015. Therefore, not old. I believe the digits are in hex (0-15) subtract 10 (A) to get something readable.

 

B-A = 1

C-A = 2

B-A = 1

F-A = 5

 

Purpose of the final character unknown - maybe manufacturing location, who knows.

 

Nigel

[veletron]

btw, date stamp is close to -ve battery terminal

[Derek Uzzell]

I was told by Banner (and a couple of Banner retailers) that it’s not possible to establish a Banner battery’s date of manufacture from markings on the battery’s casing, though I would have thought the bar-code might provide an age datum.

 

There is ‘date of manufacture’ advice in the FAQ section of Banner’s website

 

http://www.bannerbatterien.com/banner/kontakt/faq/faq.ru.php#11

 

but I’m not sure how to interpret the statement that “...the coding stamp on Banner batteries does not provide any self-explanatory conclusions regarding their age”.

 

(I don’t see any good reason see why Banner should have chosen a hex-based system for date-coding, unless it’s so Joe Public can’t understand it!)

[Colin Leake]

If I ever purchase a new battery I mark the date of purchase and retailer with a perminant marker on the case. As it happens its many years since I've needed to buy one. We tend to change the motorhome every five or six years and are always on sites with hookups. At home we have it hooked up four hours a day mainly to power the dehumidifier.

[Brian Kirby]

aandncaravan - 2015-12-02 9:04 PM

 

Brian, I am not sure that is an assumption you can make on the cause of the premature failure?..........................

Touché! :-D That is true, and I should have been less assertive. However, my real point was exactly what you say above. It may have been poor batteries, but it could as well, in the absence of concrete evidence one way or another, have been that they suffered (albeit unintended) abuse.

[Derek Uzzell]

aandncaravan - 2015-12-02 9:04 PM

 

...In anycase, as Steve928 points out, the filler caps are really difficult to remove, maintenance is all but impossible to do.

We have made up a special metal tool for these batteries that is effectively 2 x Washers welded together at right angles so that all four slots in the Cap are engaged at the same time to give double the purchase. This is then welded to a socket. It still requires a lot of energy to remove them and we still chew up the odd one that refuses to budge...

 

 

I recall reading complaints on French motorhome forums about Banner “Energy Bull” filler-caps being particularly difficult to unscrew.

 

My Rapido has such a battery and - knowing that this was designed so that its electrolyte could be topped up (and not trusting anybody!) - to check the electrolyte level in each cell I unscrewed the filler-caps as soon as I got the motorhome home. The caps were quite tight but I did not have any great difficulty unscrewing them, though it needs to be said that I didn’t use a screwdriver to do this.

 

I notice that a Banner battery cap-opening tool is marketed

 

https://www.tayna.co.uk/Banner-Battery-Cap-Opening-Tool-P9170.html

 

which suggests there’s a general need.

 

My Rapido’s battery is housed in a rear ‘garage’ and accessible for electrolyte-level checking and topping up if necessary. There’s nothing in the Rapido handbook to advise that owners should carry out such checking though, nor that it’s possible to top up the electrolyte. It’s possible (I guess) that the filler-caps become more difficult to remove over time, but my new battery’s caps unscrewed OK.

 

[aandncaravan]

Brian, On a Motorhome that has hardly been used, by Banners own reckoning of just 4g/Ah of fluid loss, something else must have evaporated that fluid.

 

The other couple I spoke of who have lived in their Motorhome for the past 8 months would have consumed a lot of Amphours, yet their Italian batteries had lost only a small proportion of the Banner batteries. The amount of fluid we would expect.

 

We would suggest the evidence is there to show it wasn't a user issue.

In line with what we have seen before we think it is battery Failure that then boiled off the Acid.

 

This is not an isolated case. We do a lot of Habitation checks, not just our 'own' but we are contracted by a local Dealer to carry out theirs.

A habitation Check allows us to see all MH's of all types using all manner of Batteries, every day.

These are usually Motorhomes with no perceived faults, just up for their annual check.

Unlike the Motorhomes visiting for a Charger repair/replacement that often have failed batteries.

 

So a good contrast that allows us to build a pretty good balanced view on what batteries work and those that don't.

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

It’s likely that most forum members will be aware of the recently-introduced NCC Verified Leisure Battery Scheme

 

http://www.thencc.org.uk/Our_Schemes/ncc_verified_leisure_battery_scheme.aspx

 

Batteries that have been ‘verified' so far are listed here

 

http://www.thencc.org.uk/downloads/Verified_Battery_Register_November_2015.pdf

 

(though I’m doubtful that there’s any link between Bosch and Platinum).

 

[Keithl]

Derek Uzzell - 2015-12-04 6:40 PM

 

(though I’m doubtful that there’s any link between Bosch and Platinum).

 

Derek,

 

It appears that in some markets (eg USA), Bosch markets its AGM battery as a 'Platinum'.

 

http://www.aapexshow.com/myaapex/Public/Booth.aspx?IndexInList=180&Upgrade=&FromPage=nz_ALProductSrch.aspx&BoothID=171052&Task=ProductsDetails&PRODID=3161

 

Keith.

[aandncaravan]

I am not quite sure who makes some of these batteries as so many companies have 'arrangements' with other companies, some of who badge their products for companies like Platinum and their competitors/rivals ManBat.

 

Odyssey Batteries is an American company owned by EnerSys.

So the Platinum Odyssey battery is the same as ManBats (Numax Range?) Odyssey battery, it is not made by Platinum, who are primarily distributors, not manufacturers.

I am guessing that Platinum have just 'proposed' the Odessey PC1350, in the same way they have the Bosch L5 range. Which in turn is made by Johnson Controls in the same factory alongside the similar Varta LFD range.

 

The Bosch S6 EnergyLife or Purelead battery appears to be made in the States by Northstar batteries which in turn seem to be in a partnership with Exide?

 

 

So it does get confusing and I have probably got some of this wrong. I think that Platinum's only Battery manufacturer is Trojan, with the rest of the range badged from other manufacturers, some of the budget range, I think, from Asia?

 

 

I don't think anyone will believe that the NCC battery scheme is anything but good. However, I would like to see more openness. Something that gets around the above confusion for one, so only a manufacturer can propose their own batteries. Otherwise, might we see a multitude of distributers proposing the same battery? Or the very least presenting an idea that it can only be purchased from a single 'supplier'.

 

The scheme also talks about a "testing process conducted by suitably certified and audited test houses" yet does not say who they are, what the test criteria is, or even publish the test results.

Did the Yuasa batteries claimed 165Ah battery achieve that in the tests or was it 177Ah, etc. This would be useful information over time to see which companies are not totally honest about the product.

Even if it was only a few Ah difference, after the tests had been running a while we might see a picture of one manufacturer 'under quoting' and another maybe 'over quoting', as is often seen in Automotive battery tests.

 

It seems to us that the certification focuses solely on battery capacity, which may be great when the battery is new, but one battery may deteriorate quite badly after 12 months versus another which performs to spec for it's lifetime.

What is the overall life - will the battery last 2 years or 10? .

What happens if you accidentally take a battery below 50% DOD, will it cripple it or handle it?

Does one battery give double the life cycles if you only take it to 30% DOD as opposed to 50% discharged?

Which ones are best at regularly dropping right down to 70% DOD?

How much fluid does one battery lose versus a competitor?

Is a 'Maintenance free' battery really that, or does it slowly lose fluid that compromises it's life?

How does using the battery in the high temperatures of Morocco affect it's life?

Etc.

 

Is the NCC going to campaign to get all batteries date stamped, like almost everything we buy from a Kit Kat to a Car?

 

We think there is 'poetic licence' being practiced when it comes to the number of cycles a battery will achieve as there is a big difference between a battery achieving a discharge cycle yet only gave 40Ah before dying and another manufacturer only quoting useful cycles where each Charge/discharge cycle was the full 90Ah charge put in.

 

The scheme is a great start, hopefully it will stay genuinely independent and go much further. At the moment it just seems to reiterate the Sales brochure quoting just Ah, Cycles and the DOD without telling us how close they came to the quoted figures?

 

One disappointing thing for me is that so many Caravans (even more than Motorhomes ) have got fixed 14.8v or 13.5volt chargers (that is they put out a constant 13.5 volts regardless of the battery charge state) with no mention of the damage they can do to an AGM battery. The chargers were designed for Wet batteries that are far more tolerant of the 'wrong' voltage.

Yet this is a scheme from the National Caravan Council who know about Caravans?

 

 

The best thing out of it, is that it shows the Banner 59201 as having the lowest number of cycles of any of the batteries in the A Category.

Just 350 for the Banner versus the Platinum 27Gel at 1,000 cycles.

For what I recently saw advertised as the "best batteries in the World" by one big Banner Dealer, that is not such a great result.

 

 

 

 

[veletron]

Hi

 

Should have said, the date code determination from the 5 HEX digits came from Banner UK, The guy there asked me for the date code explaining what it looked like. I have no reason to suspect that this is not a real date code.

 

Tanya is out of stock of the cap removal tool, I tried to order one a few weeks ago, they had no idea about lead time. I used a 10 euro cent coin and some mole grips to remove my caps in a tidy manner.

 

Away in the van as we speak.Left batteries on mains charge for 24hrs, drove 2 hrs to destination. AH Counter says I have used just 10AH this evening but voltage already dropped to 12.4V. Wonder if they will survive the weekend!?

 

Nigel

[Derek Uzzell]

Keithl - 2015-12-04 7:21 PM

 

Derek Uzzell - 2015-12-04 6:40 PM

 

(though I’m doubtful that there’s any link between Bosch and Platinum).

 

Derek,

 

It appears that in some markets (eg USA), Bosch markets its AGM battery as a 'Platinum'.

 

http://www.aapexshow.com/myaapex/Public/Booth.aspx?IndexInList=180&Upgrade=&FromPage=nz_ALProductSrch.aspx&BoothID=171052&Task=ProductsDetails&PRODID=3161

 

Keith.

 

Snag is that the “Bosch” batteries in the NCC Verified list are all non-AGM “L5” series.

 

http://br.bosch-automotive.com/media/parts/special__auto_parts/leisure_special_parts/BA_print_L4_L5_L6_en.pdf

[Derek Uzzell]

veletron - 2015-12-05 12:29 AM

 

Hi

 

Should have said, the date code determination from the 5 HEX digits came from Banner UK, The guy there asked me for the date code explaining what it looked like. I have no reason to suspect that this is not a real date code...

 

Nigel

 

Thanks - that’s useful information.

 

 

[Jaytee]

Out of interest i wonder who makes Halfords leisure batteries. I have had about five over the years and they have always performed faultlessly. They have dropped the price down recently as well. I started using them as I had a failure with a different make while in Wales and my only option for warranty was to drive back to Oxford from where I had bought it. Not an option. If I ever have a failure with a Halfords one I can change it at loads of locations.

[Brambles]

Jaytee - 2015-12-07 1:24 PM

 

Out of interest i wonder who makes Halfords leisure batteries. I have had about five over the years and they have always performed faultlessly. They have dropped the price down recently as well. I started using them as I had a failure with a different make while in Wales and my only option for warranty was to drive back to Oxford from where I had bought it. Not an option. If I ever have a failure with a Halfords one I can change it at loads of locations.

 

Dead easy to find out, find your battery on the Halfords site and then find the SDS (Safety data sheet) and take a look and it will be plastered on it somewhere.

 

EDIT. Just taken a look....latest ones are YUASA. Not brilliant if you want a lot of cycles but fine for light duty use.

[veletron]

So, whats best then? These banners will do for this winter but going forward?

 

2x trojan 6V T-145 in series? £150ea are these gonna like the 66A my inverter pulls with kettle connected??

 

Nigel

[Tracker]

veletron - 2015-12-07 9:52 PM

 

So, whats best then? These banners will do for this winter but going forward?

 

2x trojan 6V T-145 in series? £150ea are these gonna like the 66A my inverter pulls with kettle connected??

 

Nigel

 

At the risk of sounding daft - wouldn't it be easier to use the gas hob to heat a kettle of water?

[veletron]

Tracker - 2015-12-07 10:02 PM

 

At the risk of sounding daft - wouldn't it be easier to use the gas hob to heat a kettle of water?

 

Way way less convenient! and in a camper van with limited work surfaces, not having to lift the hob cover is handy. I also run a toaster off it, and a slow cooker! Much much better quality toast from a toaster vs the grill - I always burn it under the grill - its also significantly quicker!

 

Like you say --> "No right or wrong ways - just different."

 

Nigel

[Brambles]

I am picturing batteries here down at 50% SOC in the morning and you boil a kettle and making toast using 66 Amps and about 3.3 Ah or more for each. Tall order for the Batteries if you want them to last.