Battery size/type

[Derek Uzzell]

Steve928

 

The Banner website’s FAQ section includes the following:

 

"Q: Must I use a degassing hose when the battery is installed inside the vehicle?

 

A: We prescribe the use of a degassing hose whenever a lead-acid battery is installed inside the vehicle. Should a degassing hose connection (central degassing) be unavailable, the battery must be insulated from the interior using the appropriate means. In addition, the appropriate air intake and exhaust vents are to be installed. Oxyhydrogen is a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen. When exposed to an ignition source (open flame, hot surface, electrostatic discharge,...) the gas causes an explosion-like reaction. The detonation speed amounts to approx. 2,800 m/s (black powder 400-1000 m/s). As a consequence of the minimal lower explosion limit of 4 Vol% a detonation caused by battery gas emissions is entirely possible. Therefore, for your own safety always use protective eyewear when handling lead-acid batteries!”

 

You seem to be assuming that only a tiny quantity of gas ever leaves a battery through a degassing-tube. That may indeed be the case during normal use, but if a motorhome’s battery-charging system develops a fault (or the battery itself becomes faulty) significant gassing can occur and - if that happens and the battery is housed in an unsealed compartment within the vehicle and no degassing-tube has been fitted - the gas will inevitably enter the vehicle’s interior.

 

An instance was reported on this forum (quite a few years back) where a buyer of a brand-new motorcaravan had driven home from the vending dealership, hooked the vehicle up to the domestic mains power-supply and left the battery-charger running overnight. The unvented battery located within the vehicle’s living area developed a fault and, come morning, the motorhome’s interior was full of acidic gas. All the curtains and upholstery had been badly damaged and needed to be replaced.

 

The Delfingen company (that manufactures automotive battery degassing-tubes) describes this product as follows:

 

"Battery degassing vent tube

 

Our battery degassing vent tubes are designed to avoid vehicle corrosion in case of a battery failure (acid leaks and projections). The tube is directly connected to the battery and is routed in the vehicle to avoid the acid to enter in contact with metal parts, frame, etc. This simple concept already in production for years can be adapted to the specificities of the car and its battery.”

 

It seems to me that you are trying to rationalise that Bailey (who fit Banner Energy Bull batteries as original equipment) was somehow correct in omitting to fit a degassing-tube to the battery in your own motorhome. If a battery is made to accept a degassing-tube it will always be a good idea to fit one as a precautionary measure. In Bailey’s case they are apparently choosing to ignore Banner’s instructions.

[aandncaravan]

Thank you for reading the web pages, I think that is 2 people now!!!

 

We do like the Varta LFD90/Bosch L5 as it is such a good all rounder at a budget price. We think better than a Gel.

The LFD/L5 are designed to be installed inside a habitation area and have zero fluid loss. Because of the unique Silver/Powerframe technology it's gassing point is way higher than even a Gel battery. When it does Gas the fluid is contained and drips back into the cells.

 

If things go majorly wrong with the LFD90/Bosch L5 range and they gas, it is fairly benign. Rarely does a wet acid battery explode from excess pressure build-up. So, in my opinion you can't get safer than a LFD90/Bosch L5, which really is unique as the Technology is patented.

The LFD90/L5 range do have 'openings' that look like traditional 'Gas' vents, but they are not. They are there as a safety device, just like those on a Gel battery.

 

Even Gel batteries will gas if temperatures are high and things go awry. When they do the consequences tend to be more serious. Because they have a pressure (VRLA) valve that does not always work when things go wrong inside the battery, there is a greater tendency to explode.

 

The area under the seat, because it is quite enclosed with limited ventilation, would be fairly susceptible to a build up of dangerous gas if the Banner battery is charged or discharged rapidly.

So we would suggest using an 'Open', high maintenance battery in such a location for even a short time would not be a good idea.

 

[Steve928]

Derek Uzzell

It seems to me that you are trying to rationalise that Bailey (who fit Banner Energy Bull batteries as original equipment) was somehow correct in omitting to fit a degassing-tube to the battery in your own motorhome. If a battery is made to accept a degassing-tube it will always be a good idea to fit one as a precautionary measure. In Bailey’s case they are apparently choosing to ignore Banner’s instructions.

 

Not at all, Derek, I was merely provaricating and not trying to make any particular point. With regard to the Bailey installation of Banner leisure batteries I' m happy to consider the battery as being outside of the vehicle (it being in an under floor , well ventilated pod which is fully sealed from the habitation area) and therefore not requiring of a de-gassing tube.

 

Although I've only had 3 motorhomes I am on my 5th. yacht; the current one has 440ah of house batteries, a motor start battery and a windlass battery, so around 600ah in total. All of these suffer fairly heavy discharge and rapid recharging via an uprated alternator and an Adverc charging system that raises the alternator voltage to 14.5v. Yet there are no de- gassing tubes because there is nowhere to de-gas to, it being best practice not to have holes in the 'floor' of a boat :-) Any resulting hydrogen is (can) only be vented by it mixing with the cabin air and escaping through any open hatches.

 

Whilst I appreciate that the matter has to taken seriously, I suppose that my interest is piqued by just how dangerous the escape of battery gas seems to be considered in a well-ventilated motorhome with relatively low battery capacity compared to how little I've heard of the subject in the sailing world despite the fact that boats would seem to be much more at risk.

[aandncaravan]

Note there are some 'old generation pre Powerframe' LFD90's knocking around which are not half the battery. They will also be quite elderly. £80 seems a bit too cheap to me?

 

Steve928, the Adverc system you talk of on your Yatch is not a high power charging system. It pretty much charges the battery banks as they would be charged ordinarily from an Alternator in a Motorhome.

What the Adverc normally does is isolate the batteries into multiple banks, in your case probably three, by using Diode Splitter technology. As opposed to the Alternator seeing one huge battery bank.

This allows each battery bank to be charged independently as it needs. So a Starter battery bank that hardly ever does any work will only get a light charge.

 

The problem with this approach is that Diode Splitters cause Voltage drop resulting in a reduced Charge.

The Adverc compensates for this by boosting the voltage by the amount lost by the Diodes, that is all it does. It does not boost the current going into the batteries. That remains exactly the same as any battery on any Alternator.

 

The Adverc voltage can be raised slightly above the standard 14.4v, but does not have a major impact on the charging current. The marketing team might try and portray that it is 'special', but have a chat with the technical guys.

 

Most modern quality batteries (particularly Silver) will happily take up to 14.7v, even more for a limited time, without gassing.

As witnessed by the Ford Car system that boost charges the voltage close to 15v when the engine is cold and then drops to a lower than the conventional voltage once the battery is charged to save fuel. I think the Alternator 'trickle' charges at a 'low' 13.5 on the Focus and Mondeo, or something like that?

It is primarily about saving fuel not getting in a greater charge.

 

So I would be very surprised, and concerned, if you did witness any gassing on your Yatch batteries. A battery that is gassing is normally a battery that is deteriorating because it is being taken outside it's comfort zone.

The best battery manufacturers go to great lengths to ensure a battery won't gas under normal circumstances. Because when they do Gas, Corrosion at the Positive plate is usually a very unwelcome side effect that will shorten the batteries life.

 

 

There is sometimes confusion between how the Adverc and the Sterling systems work.

Sterling B2B Marine charging systems do trick the Alternator into believing the battery is more discharged than it is so the Alternator current output is higher and can cause batteries to gas.

However, in reality on most Marine craft the battery banks are so big that even the higher current output gets split across so many batteries, that each battery only ends up with a slightly greater charge than 'normal'.

 

Even if an Alternator was throwing 100amps at a 600Ah battery bank, that is less than 19amps per 100Ah battery and well within a batteries comfort zone.

 

But you can see how something very different would happen if you fitted a Sterling B2B to a Motorhomes much smaller battery bank?

 

 

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

Steve928

 

The installation of the Energy Bull in your Bailey motorhome evidently complies with Banner’s advice about when a degassing-tube is not required (ie. the battery compartment is sealed from the motorhome’s living-area and well ventilated) though even in such circumstances it would still be a sensible precautionary measure to fit a tube to lead any gas or acidic liquid outside the battery compartment.

 

David Lloyd is in a different position, as the Energy Bull battery in his Chausson is beneath a cab seat where it is ‘open’ to the motorhome’s living-area and, in such a scenario, Banner prescribes that a degassing-tube be fitted. And, as a leisure-battery degassing-tube is mentioned/pictured in Chausson’s User’s Manual, it seems reasonable to think that Chausson intends that Banner’s prescription be followed.

 

David has said that there’s no obvious visual evidence of a degassing-tube being attached to his battery or of a tube emerging beneath his motorhome. Elite Motorhomes (the original supplier of David’s Chausson) have told him that his Banner battery is “...most likely to be the standard battery they fit which would be a 100ah wet battery...” Consequently, if Elite fitted the Banner battery in David’s motorhome and ignored Banner’s instructions (and Chausson’s expectations pehaps) regarding fitting a degassing-tube, it would be interesting to know why they did this.

 

Discussions about the the merits or otherwise of the various types of motorhome leisure-battery are fine. But the reality is that motorhome manufacturers continue to market vehicles with batteries that have the capability to have their electrolyte-level checked and topped up if necessary, but are installing them inaccessibly where it’s very unlikely they will be checked/maintained.

 

The options for David seem to be

 

1: Do nothing and hope that the Chausson’s underseat Energy Bull battery won’t ‘gas’ significantly and won’t need topping up between now and when the battery is replaced.

 

2: Fit a degassing-tube to his underseat Energy Bull battery and - as the cab-seat needs to be displaced to check the battery’s electrolyte-level - carry out periodic checking/maintenance himself.

 

3: Do as Tracker suggested and relocate the leisure-battery to a more accessible location.

 

4: Don’t relocate the present Energy Bull leisure-battery, but replace it now with a battery type that is not designed to be maintainable or vented.

[Steve928]

aandncaravan - 2015-12-15 10:33 PM

What the Adverc normally does is isolate the batteries into multiple banks, in your case probably three, by using Diode Splitter technology. As opposed to the Alternator seeing one huge battery bank.

This allows each battery bank to be charged independently as it needs. So a Starter battery bank that hardly ever does any work will only get a light charge.

 

Sorry but that's incorrect. The diode splitter isolates the individual battery banks so that they cannot 'see' each other and current cannot flow between them but can do nothing to regulate the charge separately for each bank. An Adverc BM has only a single battery sense connection so it regulates the alternator's output to best charge the bank to which its sense wire is connected. If this sense connection is to the house bank (as is recommended) then all other banks, even if only lightly discharged, are then subjected to the same charging regime. There is no way to give a light charge to a lightly-discharged battery other than by connecting the Adverc's sense wire to that battery (or by using more than one alternator).

 

aandncaravan - 2015-12-15 10:33 PM

The problem with this approach is that Diode Splitters cause Voltage drop resulting in a reduced Charge.

The Adverc compensates for this by boosting the voltage by the amount lost by the Diodes, that is all it does. It does not boost the current going into the batteries. That remains exactly the same as any battery on any Alternator.

The Adverc voltage can be raised slightly above the standard 14.4v, but does not have a major impact on the charging current. The marketing team might try and portray that it is 'special', but have a chat with the technical guys.

 

Not true in my case because as standard the alternator is regulated to 14v. Using a connection to the alternator's field the Adverc raises this to 14.5v, punctuated by 5 minute rest periods every 15 minutes at the standard regulated voltage. Charging at 14.5v the battery reaches a higher state of final charge and charges faster (i.e. charge current is increased) than if charged at 14v. I'm also lead to believe that the rest periods are important in increasing charge take-up although I've only read this, but certainly the increased charge is substantial and measurable in my case.

 

Yes, by converting a machine-sensed alternator into a battery-sensed one the Adverc does indeed compensate for the the voltage drop across diode splitters, but as I use Mosfet splitters with zero (negligible anyway) voltage drop this isn't an important feature to me.

 

 

aandncaravan - 2015-12-15 10:33 PM

So I would be very surprised, and concerned, if you did witness any gassing on your Yatch batteries. A battery that is gassing is normally a battery that is deteriorating because it is being taken outside it's comfort zone.

The best battery manufacturers go to great lengths to ensure a battery won't gas under normal circumstances. Because when they do Gas, Corrosion at the Positive plate is usually a very unwelcome side effect that will shorten the batteries life.

 

As explained in my first point, the usually lightly discharged engine start and windlass batteries do receive the same charging regime as the deeply discharged house batteries which does lead to fluid loss from these 2 batteries. Whether it escapes as hydrogen and if so where it goes I don't know - but the curtains haven't caught fire yet..

 

aandncaravan - 2015-12-15 10:33 PM

There is sometimes confusion between how the Adverc and the Sterling systems work.

Sterling B2B Marine charging systems do trick the Alternator into believing the battery is more discharged than it is so the Alternator current output is higher and can cause batteries to gas.

 

I understood that Sterling B2B chargers (marine or otherwise) used Sterling's standard UoUo charging curve with bulk, absorbtion and float phases and are therefore no more likely than any other Sterling charging product to cause the battery that it is charging to gas. Are you saying that this isn't the case?

 

 

[david lloyd]

Hi everyone,

 

Just to clarify a couple of points:

 

The base vehicle is indeed a Fiat Ducato.

Sadly, there is no room in the underseat areas as the forward facing double seat houses the fresh water tank and the offside side facing seat is located over the LPG locker with a small area inboard that houses the RCD, battery charger etc.

The wheel brace/jacking kit has been (poorly) relocated to beneath the drivers seat - usually these are located beneath the passenger seat. This space could be freed up if necessary to accommodate a second battery for instance.

The only remaining place to relocate would be the garage which would necessitate a long wiring run.

 

I have had the two plastic sides off the seat which gives a better view of the battery and can confirm there is no degassing tube fitted. At the side which faces into the aisle between the two seats there is what looks like a flap with a small (about 4mm) 'peg' with a small slot in that I assume is where the degassing tube should be fitted?

 

So, Derek has summed up the various options available and I am minded to leave as is until we return from Spain in March. The battery will be maintained on electric hookup for a good deal of that time. As I was not the original purchaser from Elite Motorhomes I am unsure as to whether I could request they fit a degassing tube or change the battery for a maintenance free one. I do agree with Derek that it is remis of any dealer/manufacturer not to either fit the tube or locate the battery in such a position that it can be maintained without resorting to removing a cab seat.

 

aandacaravans - come the time to replace the battery you clearly seem to favour the Varta or Bosch type. If either if these were fitted a) would it be sensible to treat these as low or maintenance free and therefore suitable for mounting beneath the cab seats? B) would they be treated as 'Gel' batteries for charging purposes?

 

Thanks for all the help and suggestions so far.

 

David

 

 

[aandncaravan]

The Bosch L5 and Varta LFD range are both zero maintenance Wet Acid Lead batteries. The technology inside the batteries means they are resistant to gassing but the design of the top of the battery traps any fluid that is created so it stays in the battery.

 

In medium use, even at higher than normal temperatures (up to 45 degrees I think?) there will be no fluid loss that requires replacement.

 

No don't charge as Gel, Charge on a Lead Wet Acid setting, sometimes listed on the charger as 'Lead', 'Blei Saure', or 'Wet'.

[david lloyd]

aandncaravan - 2015-12-16 5:05 PM

 

The Bosch L5 and Varta LFD range are both zero maintenance Wet Acid Lead batteries. The technology inside the batteries means they are resistant to gassing but the design of the top of the battery traps any fluid that is created so it stays in the battery.

 

In medium use, even at higher than normal temperatures (up to 45 degrees I think?) there will be no fluid loss that requires replacement.

 

No don't charge as Gel, Charge on a Lead Wet Acid setting, sometimes listed on the charger as 'Lead', 'Blei Saure', or 'Wet'.

 

Thanks again for the advice but to be absolutely clear (it's amazing how many variants of the same wording there are) my CBE charger is either 'PB' (for wet or flooded batteries) or 'Gel' so this should remain set at PB as it is now for the banner battery?

 

The solar regulator has three settings - 'Flooded' 'Sealed' and 'Gel' so, again this should be set to Flooded for the Varta or Bosch type battery?

 

Could I also clarify one other point. I haven't checked what type the starter battery is but, as it is also charged by both devices, would it be safe to continue charging on the setting you are about to advise me for the leisure batteries even if it different - say a sealed battery for instance?

 

Thanks again,

David

[aandncaravan]

Yes the chargers should be set in your case to Pb and Flooded as per the banner battery.

Unlikely that the Starter battery will be anything other than a Wet Acid/Flooded maintenance free battery and the same class as the Varta LFD90/Bosch L5/Banner.

 

 

 

[david lloyd]

aandncaravan - 2015-12-16 7:47 PM

 

Yes the chargers should be set in your case to Pb and Flooded as per the banner battery.

Unlikely that the Starter battery will be anything other than a Wet Acid/Flooded maintenance free battery and the same class as the Varta LFD90/Bosch L5/Banner.

 

 

 

Thank you to you and everyone else who has provided help and advice.

 

David

[Alanb]

david lloyd - 2015-12-16 12:43 PM

 

I have had the two plastic sides off the seat which gives a better view of the battery and can confirm there is no degassing tube fitted. At the side which faces into the aisle between the two seats there is what looks like a flap with a small (about 4mm) 'peg' with a small slot in that I assume is where the degassing tube should be fitted?

 

 

Yes this is what I was trying to describe in my earlier contribution. "An annular ring with a central slot....".

 

Assuming that you feel competent to undertake the task, an given that a return trip to your dealer would be in the region of 300 miles, may I suggest that the DIY approach would be by far the cheapest in both time and money.

 

The manual for your motor home mentions a venting tube, so it is possible that a hole for it already exists. If so it would be relatively easy to fit an modified elbow as I did, or the Banner version located by Derek. (This second choice should certainly fit, but as often the case delivery charges would add to the cost.)

 

To check the electrolyte level in the battery, you will also need a tool for the cell top plugs. These are commercially available, but as I wanted one quickly I made it from a piece of scrap steel. It is about 1.5mm (16 SWG) thick, and 15mm wide at the working end, but wider and stiffened

 

If working on the battery please do take care.

 

I am not fully conversant with the current Ducato, as mine is a 2006 X244 model. It is fitted with turn tables to both front seats. I use a T40 (torx) bit to remove the front seat, and a 5mm hex bit for the turntable. It does not take very long. However I note that the instruction manual for your motorhome includes a section on access to the leisure battery.

[david lloyd]

OK, so I have checked beneath the drivers seat as it suddenly occurred to me that when the Chausson brochure shows a vent tube beneath the 'passenger' seat they are referring to left hand drive vehicles. Sure enough, there is a vent tube exiting beneath the drivers seat.

 

Why on earth Elite have gone to the trouble of moving the wheelbrace/jack pack from beneath the (UK) passenger seat to beneath the drivers seat and then installed a flooded battery without degassing tube underneath the now vacant passenger seat I'll never know. Maybe I'm just simple but I would have thought it better to have simply located any leisure battery beneath the drivers seat where it was obviously intended to go by Chausson - albeit they refer to it as a passenger seat because of the left hand drive originations of their design.

 

David

 

[Steve928]

Steve928 - 2015-12-16 11:08 AM

 

aandncaravan - 2015-12-15 10:33 PM

There is sometimes confusion between how the Adverc and the Sterling systems work.

Sterling B2B Marine charging systems do trick the Alternator into believing the battery is more discharged than it is so the Alternator current output is higher and can cause batteries to gas.

 

I understood that Sterling B2B chargers (marine or otherwise) used Sterling's standard UoUo charging curve with bulk, absorbtion and float phases and are therefore no more likely than any other Sterling charging product to cause the battery that it is charging to gas. Are you saying that this isn't the case?

 

 

aandncaravan,

By all means ignore my correction of your inaccuracies concerning the Adverc BM as it isn't motorhome-related, but could you respond to my point regarding the Sterling B2B charger please?

 

I was about to buy one for the van (a BBW1212 or a BB1250) but am concerned by your statement that they may cause the battery to gas.

Thanks in advance.

[aandncaravan]

Steve, I did not want to argue my case, just agree to disagree.

 

 

The Sterling products have two different features that the products use.

 

The website says that one replaces/overrides the Alternators regulator, with it's standard 14.4v output, bumping it up, I think to around 15v?, so boosting the charge going into the batteries.

 

 

The other, more commonly used in Motorhomes, and I quote "fools the alternator into thinking that there is a major drain on the system and as such, the standard regulator works at FULL current".

An option with this solution is an Alternator temperature sensor. Ask yourself why you would need to monitor the Alternator temperature?

 

Both features force more power into a battery than the Battery manufacturer intended.

Look on any Battery manufacturers website (for Wet/Gel batteries)and they will tell you that for long battery life, the lower the charging rate the better.

 

Most suggest 10amps per 100Ah battery as about the optimum for long battery life.

 

20amps per 100Ah battery as not a bad balance if you don't mind sacrificing a little battery life.

 

30amps is likely to lead to raised temperatures at the plates, gassing, corrosion on the positive Grid and significantly shortened battery life.

 

Both systems can cause issues when installed with modern Motorhome Electronics from some manufacturers.

 

In our experience Alternator life tends to be shorter, just like the batteries. They are not designed to run with this load. The strain of driving a 160Amp Alternator against a big battery bank can also seriously stress the drive belts and idler pulleys.

A modern Alternator will normally spend much of its life doing next to no work. Even when working hard they generally don't run at much more than 70%, and then only for short periods.

 

Battery life can also be very short. Victron Energy, for their long life Gel, quote a life reduction from 10 years down to just 3 when charged at 30amps per 100Ah battery.

 

 

The older versions of the B2B were recommended for Open(refillable) wet batteries only, as they charged at a 'fixed' high 14.8v which resulted in fluid loss even in Gel batteries.

The new Sterling B2B versions have voltage changing circuitry that regulates the voltage to match the battery technology.

It drops the standard Alternators 14.4v down to 14.1v for AGM, stays at 14.4v for Gel and increases to 14.8v for open wet batteries. Sealed wet batteries like the Varta Silver LFD range should not be used.

 

 

You may note that these voltages go against what most battery manufacturers recommend for AGM which is generally charged at a higher 14.7v, not a very low14.1v?

I openly confess to not knowing the reason for this but, suspect that the higher Current charge already puts it close to it's temperature/gassing limits so the voltage drop helps address this?

Maybe?

 

The systems originated on Marine Craft, where battery banks are often huge and the Craft may have one or more dedicated Alternators just for the habitation batteries. The compromises of short life are accepted as there is little alternative. Additionally marine Craft tend to spend much longer periods cruising, so the batteries rarely run down very low before receiving a charge.

 

Someone contemplating fitting a B2B is most likely to be doing so because they do run the batteries down very low. Their present journey times are not long enough for their battery consumption?.

 

Obviously very important that a B2B's batteries are vented safely.

 

We would suggest you ask yourself why no major Motorhome Charger/power unit manufacturer has adopted technology to fast charge a battery at a higher rate than that recommended by the battery manufacturer.

 

 

[veletron]

Hi

 

I have run a sterling 50A B2B for the past 6 years across 2 vans and several sets of batteries. It does indeed make them gas; the batteries (3 separate sets!) in my previous van took the best part of 4L of distilled water throughout my ownership. My B2B is set at the 'open lead acid' setting which boost charges at 14.8V.

 

For simple alternator charging, check the voltage at the battery during and after a run. The charging systems via split relays and the usual under sized cables (and associated voltage drops) + standard vehicle alternator are unlikely to raise the battery voltage above 14.4V, the original system in my trigano tribute never went above 14.2V. Your banner should not gas at this sort of voltage. Unfortunately, you would also need to drive for many hours (eg days) to charge the battery fully.

 

For the mains charger, you could see if it has a 'gel' setting, this will charge to 14.4V rather than 14.7/14.8V before floating the battery @13.4/13.8V. At 14.8V the battery may gas, but this is unlikely at 14.4V

 

Having said the above, I have always fitted the vent tube, and would do so again, even with only alternator charging or a gel battery setting being used. If its in a ducato, under the passenger seat, running a vent tube into the vehicle battery box, and from there either T-ing into the vehicle battery vent tube or popping a new vent tube out of the vehicle battery box is easy-peasy. Go under the cab flooring with it, prod a horizontal channel through the noise dampening foam and then stick the tube through and straight into the battery box. I have done this with 4AWG cable from my B2B which is roughly the same diameter as a battery vent tube. B&Q will flog you both some Y-pieces and a length of vent tube.

 

Nigel

[Derek Uzzell]

david lloyd - 2015-12-17 2:32 PM

 

OK, so I have checked beneath the drivers seat as it suddenly occurred to me that when the Chausson brochure shows a vent tube beneath the 'passenger' seat they are referring to left hand drive vehicles. Sure enough, there is a vent tube exiting beneath the drivers seat.

 

Why on earth Elite have gone to the trouble of moving the wheelbrace/jack pack from beneath the (UK) passenger seat to beneath the drivers seat and then installed a flooded battery without degassing tube underneath the now vacant passenger seat I'll never know. Maybe I'm just simple but I would have thought it better to have simply located any leisure battery beneath the drivers seat where it was obviously intended to go by Chausson - albeit they refer to it as a passenger seat because of the left hand drive originations of their design.

 

David

 

The 2015 Chausson Manual’s battery-related section includes a drawing indicating that the ‘auxiliary battery’ of Fiat Ducato-based models is housed beneath the right-hand cab seat. Both cab seats are drawn and it’s evident (because of the steering-wheel being shown in front of the left-hand seat) that a LHD layout is being depicted. No alternative position is shown for the auxiliary battery.

 

The next section in the manual relates to the auxiliary battery of Ford Transit-based Chaussons and for these models the auxiliary battery will always be located beneath the passenger seat as Ford houses the starter-battery under the driver’s seat irrespective of whether or not the vehicle is LHD or RHD. So a LHD Transit-based Chausson will have its auxiliary battery beneath the right-hand cab seat, and a RHD Transit-based Chausson will have its auxiliary battery beneath the left-hand cab seat. The Chausson Manual’s drawings confirm this.

 

It does seem perverse that Elite Motorhomes would deliberately swap the tool-kit/jack package over and install the auxiliary battery in its place beneath a RHD Fiat-based Chausson’s left-hand cab seat when the Chausson Manual’s drawings suggest the battery would normally go under the right-hand seat. As far as I’m aware Fiat does not allow for a battery being put under either of the cab seats, so its reasonable to assume that the vent-tube beneath your motorhome’s right-hand seat has been installed at the conversion stage and that’s where Chausson anticipates the auxiliary battery should go.

 

Conversely, whether an auxiliary battery is housed beneath the right-hand or left-hand cab seat, the battery must be cabled to the motorhome’s electrical system. While it might be that Chausson has a policy of supplying motorhomes to their dealerships without an auxiliary battery, leaving the dealership to fit a battery at the delivery stage (This has been suggested is the case in earlier Chausson-related forum discussions) it seems most unlikely that Chausson would delegate the battery-cabling installation task to their dealerships. Even though there’s a battery degassing-tube under your motorhome’s right-hand cab seat, it seems probable to me that Chausson themselves fitted the battery-cabling under the left-hand cab seat and relocated the tool-kit/jack package to the right-hand seat.

 

You could ask Elite Motorhomes about this, or take a straw poll of UK owners of recent Fiat-based Chaussons. If all RHD Chausson motorhomes turn out to have their auxiliary battery under the left-hand cab seat, it would be a fair bet that this is as a result of a Chausson decision. If your motorhome is unique battery-position-wise, then it’s more likely a Elite Motorhomes decision.

 

And if RHD Ducato-based Chausson motorhomes are all getting a Banner Energy Bull ‘wet’ battery under the left-hand cab seat with a degassing-tube under the right-hand cab seat (but no battery there to connect the tube to), that wouldn’t astonish me.

[Brian Kirby]

Derek Uzzell - 2015-12-19 9:20 AM..........................And if RHD Ducato-based Chausson motorhomes are all getting a Banner Energy Bull ‘wet’ battery under the left-hand cab seat with a degassing-tube under the right-hand cab seat (but no battery there to connect the tube to), that wouldn’t astonish me.

Me neither, even if the error was subsequently spotted and corrected. However, because of the danger this arrangement creates, I do think David should draw this anomaly to Elite's attention, so that they can at least check any other Chausson's that go to them for service, or pass through their hands.

 

With my apologies to David, and depending on Elite's response, I think it might also be worth him putting up a separate post on this matter (with necessary detail to identify what to look for and where to find it, perhaps aided by a couple of pictures - when possible) to warn others to check, and get their leisure battery properly vented as necessary.

 

It is likely that Mr & Mrs Average-Motorhomer (Condescending? I hope not! :-)) will assume the van as delivered will have all normal safety measures present and correct. I suspect that many will not realise that their leisure battery may need a vent and, even if they do, would expect absence of a vent to mean the battery fitted does not require one.

[david lloyd]

aandncaravan - 2015-12-15 7:54 PM

 

Thank you for reading the web pages, I think that is 2 people now!!!

 

We do like the Varta LFD90/Bosch L5 as it is such a good all rounder at a budget price. We think better than a Gel.

The LFD/L5 are designed to be installed inside a habitation area and have zero fluid loss. Because of the unique Silver/Powerframe technology it's gassing point is way higher than even a Gel battery. When it does Gas the fluid is contained and drips back into the cells.

 

If things go majorly wrong with the LFD90/Bosch L5 range and they gas, it is fairly benign. Rarely does a wet acid battery explode from excess pressure build-up. So, in my opinion you can't get safer than a LFD90/Bosch L5, which really is unique as the Technology is patented.

The LFD90/L5 range do have 'openings' that look like traditional 'Gas' vents, but they are not. They are there as a safety device, just like those on a Gel battery.

 

Even Gel batteries will gas if temperatures are high and things go awry. When they do the consequences tend to be more serious. Because they have a pressure (VRLA) valve that does not always work when things go wrong inside the battery, there is a greater tendency to explode.

 

The area under the seat, because it is quite enclosed with limited ventilation, would be fairly susceptible to a build up of dangerous gas if the Banner battery is charged or discharged rapidly.

So we would suggest using an 'Open', high maintenance battery in such a location for even a short time would not be a good idea.

 

Hi again aandncaravan,

 

Thank you for all the previous advice. I will be returning home from Spain soon and my intention is to replace the Banner Energy Bull battery (that was the topic of this thread) with two Varta LDF 90 as you suggest - hopefully, with both located under the same seat if it can be managed. Earlier you mentioned that the batteries I had seen at around £80 sounded a bit too cheap and that there are some early type still around. Could you please give me any information I should ask to confirm that the batteries I am buying are indeed the new silver/power frame type?

 

Many thanks, David

[aandncaravan]

The Varta LFD90 does seem to be more readily available at around £80 - £85.

 

I don't know if that is because the lower cost of Lead is being passed on or that Varta are now making so many of these that economies of scale are coming into play?

No idea, but I would imagine that any batteries you now see are the Powerframe versions.

 

However, even though the Varta Silver is much more resistant to deterioration in Storage than almost all other Wet batteries, we would still suggest you only buy from a Battery Dealer that has a high turnover of batteries to be sure yours are fresh out of the factory?

 

Don't ask me how you achieve this, as I don't know the answer!!! I can only suggest that you only buy from a place you know does a lot of the type of batteries you require. It can mean the difference between a battery having a long life or failing prematurely. A battery left idle in a shop over winter, can have a life of just months.

 

When buying a battery we try to avoid the biggest battery Retailers, as it is too easy for batteries to lie around a long time uncharged.

What we look for is a relatively small place that does not physically have the space to stock many batteries, that usually means they are never in the shop long.

 

Try and avoid the very cheapest battery source and you will probably also avoid buying old stock batteries being cleared at a low price?

 

We recently bought some Michelin Agilis tyres on e-bay for a van only to find that these 'new' tyres had a manufacture date of week 12 year 2011.

We had to buy a 'proper' new set, so it worked out quite expensive. Don't know how a seller can get away with selling 5 year old tyres as 'new'.

 

So I would be very surprised if the same practise doesn't also apply to batteries?

 

 

 

 

 

[david lloyd]

Thanks again for all the advice. I will, of course, ask the relevant questions of the retailer but we are then in their hands and rely on their integrity for the right answers. Previously on this thread some people quoted Tayna as a good source of supply but, that said, they do seem to be the variety that will 'stack 'em high, sell 'em cheap' but that could be me doing them an injustice.

 

I will, nevertheless, have a good look around and see what I can find.

 

Thanks again

David

[Derek Uzzell]

You could consider this company if you are prepared to buy on-line (delivery seems to be free).

 

http://www.batterymegastore.co.uk/varta-lfd90.html

 

Battery Megastore (UK) is fairly close to where I live and I was able to collect a Varta Silver Dynamic starter-battery from them for my Hobby motorhome (and have a few quid knocked off the price as a result). The firm is not too large and were happy to answer questions. Seemed quite amused when I put a voltmeter on the battery before paying for it...

 

I don’t know how easy it is to ‘age’ a Varta battery. Evidently - some years back - a coloured dot was used to indicate when a Varta battery was made, but I’m not sure that’s still the case.

 

(Regarding tyre ‘shelf life’, apparently the British Rubber Manufacturers Association (BRMA) recommended (June, 2001) as follows:

 

"BRMA members strongly recommend that unused tyres should not be put into service if they are over six years old and that all tyres should be replaced ten years from the date of their manufacture.”

 

Not ideal for motorhomes, then, if a ’new’ tyre is found to be 6 years old.)

[david lloyd]

Derek Uzzell - 2016-02-11 10:26 AM

 

You could consider this company if you are prepared to buy on-line (delivery seems to be free).

 

http://www.batterymegastore.co.uk/varta-lfd90.html

 

Battery Megastore (UK) is fairly close to where I live and I was able to collect a Varta Silver Dynamic starter-battery from them for my Hobby motorhome (and have a few quid knocked off the price as a result). The firm is not too large and were happy to answer questions. Seemed quite amused when I put a voltmeter on the battery before paying for it...

 

I don’t know how easy it is to ‘age’ a Varta battery. Evidently - some years back - a coloured dot was used to indicate when a Varta battery was made, but I’m not sure that’s still the case.

 

(Regarding tyre ‘shelf life’, apparently the British Rubber Manufacturers Association (BRMA) recommended (June, 2001) as follows:

 

"BRMA members strongly recommend that unused tyres should not be put into service if they are over six years old and that all tyres should be replaced ten years from the date of their manufacture.”

 

Not ideal for motorhomes, then, if a ’new’ tyre is found to be 6 years old.)

 

Quite, Derek.

 

Thank you for the link to the supplier. I think they were in fact one I had seen when searching the internet so will bear them in mind - better a recommendation than pot luck!

 

David

[david lloyd]

aandncaravan - 2015-12-16 7:47 PM

 

Yes the chargers should be set in your case to Pb and Flooded as per the banner battery.

Unlikely that the Starter battery will be anything other than a Wet Acid/Flooded maintenance free battery and the same class as the Varta LFD90/Bosch L5/Banner.

 

 

 

Hi again aandacaravans, we are back in this green and pleasant land of ours and I am trying to make arrangements to have two Varta LFD90 batteries under the Fiat Ducato seat of my Chausson Welcome 717GA as dis cussed earlier in the thread.

 

One thing my dealer has raised is the question about whether the fitted 16 amp CBE charger will cope with charging two batteries totalling 180 ah without suffering damage.

 

Do you have any advice on this please?

 

Many thanks

David

[Brian Kirby]

FWIW, David, I think the answer to that is not reliably. Conventionally, you should have a minimum of 18A (10%) for charging 180Ah of battery, but preferably more as the "charger" also has other duties to perform. A 16A charger will be over worked, placing strain on both charger and, in terms of ideal charging rate, the battery. Unless you really need 180Ah of battery capacity (90Ah usable), I wonder if it might be more expedient to drop the battery sizes to 2 x 75Ah, or thereabouts.