A puzzle - "wrong sort of gas"

[Tracker]

Derek Uzzell - 2016-01-29 2:00 PM

 

I never joke.

 

I've noticed.

 

Perhaps it was the "wrong sort of implant"?

[Chuns]

Thanks for all that invaluable information, everybody. I thought you might like an update...

 

By the way, during this recent windy weather a Motorhome has been seen parked atop a hill. No idea what it was doing there. It was there on three consecutive days. They must have liked it there.

 

Did you know (I can't find an emoji for tongue in cheek) that a gas bottle rapidly freezes up if the gas somehow accidentally escapes?

 

Anyway, back to my gas. I shall be filling up with UK propane shortly, and that will provide a definitive answer as to whether it is the solution we all expect it to be. Then I am having a filter fitted in the AutoLPG feed to the regulator, and am having a changeover system fitted, with the other half being fed by an exchangeable Propane bottle. This will have little use, but will cater for the odd winter outing.

 

Hopefully that will see the end of it. Thanks again, folks.

 

Peter

 

 

[Chuns]

An update for all who were kind enough to offer their thought.

 

Managed to get rid of all the gas, and filled up with UK LPG. The heater now works fine.

 

Well, well.

[b9k9uk]

Hi New Kid on the Block here,

 

Glad to hear the heaters working.

 

From the above I've learned that Butane does not work well with Winter, Propane does.

 

Butane comes in Blue canisters (?)

 

Propane comes in Red canisters (?)

 

Appliances work equally well (weather permitting) on either LPG, Butane, Propane.

 

So why bother with Butane is it cheaper than Propane?

 

In any case is LPG of the forecourt cheaper still, currently around 60p a litre round my way.

 

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Chuns]

As you can tell, I'm a long way from being an authority, and there are many here who are prepared to share their knowledge. What I do know is that butane seems to be both cheaper and more readily available - look at all the blue bottles outside garages.

 

There are other issues about getting more bangs for your buck though, I understand propane burns hotter, so presumably the kettle boils quicker.

 

Over to the experts...

[Tracker]

Butane was the norm many years ago when caravans etc had very limited winter appeal but as insulation and heating has improved so the seasons have extended to the point where all year round travel and camping are popular.

 

The price differences in actual use of Calor propane or butane are minimal and what is far more valuable than a few pence or even a few quid is having a cuupa tea in a warm van!

 

Pre bottled gas in whatever format is very unlikely to be as cost effective as a refillable bottle but whether the initial cost of a refillable set up justifies the long term savings, and the easy availablility abroad, only the individual can decide.

 

Our van too has a refillable topped up in France in September and I too had not realised the composition of that top up would differ from UK winter Autogas. I did try ours last week when it was brass monkey weather and the heating and cooker did seem to fire up and run OK but next time we return from France in the Autumn I will top up the gas bottle on our return the UK instead of in France and to blazes with the expense!

[b9k9uk]

Peter, Rich

 

Thanks for the responses, it confirms unscientific research of my own.

 

Can you specify one of the other for new vans or is it a case of take what your given with after market conversion should you require it.

 

Haven't found anyone who modifies gas installation to include fitted tank, do you know of anyone?

[Robinhood]

...I can't say that I've noticed that butane is significantly more "available" than propane (though, as I've been using propane for years, I am in the habit of going somewhere that I know will have propane in various sizes when I want to swap).

 

The calorific value by weight of propane is very little different to that of butane (the calorific value by unconstrained volume differs quite a bit).

 

With non-refillable bottles, you buy by weight of course, so all you want to know to compare the contents is the price/kg of each.

 

This brings up some interesting "anomalies";

 

It has already been discussed on here that buying gas in the largest bottle you can practically use can cut the price/kg dramatically. AFAICS, at Calor prices butane bought in a 7kg bottle is cheaper per kg than propane in the equivalent 6kg, but butane bought in a 15kg bottle is more expensive per kg than propane bought in the equivalent 13kg bottle.

 

Whatever, if you are going to use your 'van below 10C, I would say that propane is probably a no-brainer.

 

[StuartO]

Chuns - 2016-02-03 11:04 PMAn update for all who were kind enough to offer their thought.Managed to get rid of all the gas, and filled up with UK LPG. The heater now works fine.Well, well.

 

That certainly seems to suggest you collected some dodgy lpg when you filled up in France and replacing it with a UK Autogas refill did the trick.  Still a puzzle as to how this could affect only one of your appliances but the proof of the pudding lies in the eating!

 

Thanks for letting us know the outcome.

 

[Derek Uzzell]

There’s no reason to think the French autogas was ‘dodgy’. But if autogas containing 60% or 70% butane (eg. French ‘summer grade’ autogas) is fed to a Truma 6kw-output ‘combi’ heater in cold weather, it should be anticipated that a) there will quite likely be a problem and b) the problem will be what Chuns experienced.

 

When I began motorcaravanning in 1998 the UK-norm for motorhomes was to have an on-bottle gas-regulator and (as butane and propane regulators had different regulated pressures) to change the regulator when a butane bottle was swapped for a propane one (and vice versa).

 

As Tracker has said UK caravanners usually used butane and domestic room-heaters also did. So butane bottles have tended to be more available in the UK than propane bottles. There’s also a (potential) advantage in using butane in a leisure-vehicle if you also have a domestic room-heater, as the bottles can then be interchanged. Leisure-vehicle owners who insisted on using butane sooner or later got their comeuppance in wintry weather.

 

Around 2004 a standard regulated gas pressure (30mbar) was agreed for leisure-vehicles. This pressure is OK for butane or propane (or a mixture of both) and the vehicle’s gas appliances are now designed to operate at 30mbar. This removes the need to change regulators.

 

Some motorhomes may be fitted as standard with an external user-refillable LPG tank, but I don’t think any major motorhome manufacturer offers a gas system based on user-refillable bottles. As a user-refillable-bottle system is relatively straightforward to install, many motohome dealerships will be prepared to take on that task for a buyer of a new motorhome or to retro-fit such a system to a secondhand vehicle.

[Tracker]

If you want a good deal and the prospect of a 'while you wait' fitting of a gas tank or refillable bottle(s) then a good place to start would be one of the shows, and generally speaking the larger the show the more likely there is to be more of a choice.

[Keithl]

b9k9uk - 2016-02-05 10:28 AM

 

Haven't found anyone who modifies gas installation to include fitted tank, do you know of anyone?

 

Try Autogas 2000 in Thirsk...

 

http://www.autogas.co.uk/motorhome-home.htm

 

Keith.

[StuartO]

Derek Uzzell - 2016-02-05 2:43 PMThere’s no reason to think the French autogas was ‘dodgy’. But if autogas containing 60% or 70% butane (eg. French ‘summer grade’ autogas) is fed to a Truma 6kw-output ‘combi’ heater in cold weather, it should be anticipated that a) there will quite likely be a problem and b) the problem will be what Chuns experienced....

 

I think we're merely on a different somantic plane here Mr Uzzel. 

 

If French LPG is mostly butane in Summer,  it is a bad idea to fill up your re-usable bottles on your way home unless you are confident that you will use it all up before winter sets in.  Unfortunately the French don't tell you what mix of butane/propane you are buying, at least it's not advertised at the pump.  You probably want to end up with propane only in your bottles in UK, so don't refill in France on the way home.

 

[Derek Uzzell]

My wife bought me a somantic plane for Xmas, but its wings fell off when I first flew it. ;-)

 

Autogas is intended to fuel vehicle motors, not to fuel gas appliances in motorhomes/caravans. In fact, a year or two back, it was strongly argued in France that using autogas for any purpose other than as a vehicle-motor fuel was illegal.

 

If you look at the list in the link Keithl provided earlier, you’ll see that French autogas is much less butane-rich than that of some other countries (Greece = 80% butane all-year-round, Germany = 90%-100% butane in summer) and that a country’s ‘summer’ autogas can be widely different to its ‘winter’ autogas (eg. Poland).

 

As far as I’m aware no country’s autogas-supplying outlets specifically identify at the pump what the ‘mix’ is, because it doesn’t matter when autogas is used for its intended motor-fuelling purpose. It would be unrealistic to think that this would change to better inform a small number of motorcaravanners who are unaware that the autogas propane/butane mixture abroad can differ radically from the UK’s 100% propane and that this difference can impact on their winter travelling.

 

 

[Tracker]

It all seems simples enough to me - if you want your gas to work properly in cold climates then buy gas designed to work properly in cold climates - how hard can it be?

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

Tracker

 

That’s simplistically true, but it appears that Peter (Chuns) was unaware that French ‘summer’ autogas could be problematical if used to fuel motorhome high-demand habitation gas-appliances in cold weather; that Autovan Services Ltd were also unaware of this, and (based on your posting of 27 January 2016 9:15 AM above) that you were similarly ignorant of that possibility or had not appreciated the full extent of the potential problem.

 

The cold-weather risk has been known about for years and has often been mentioned in forum discussions about use of autogas abroad. It was touched on at the end of Paragraph “C” of this ancient forum thread.

 

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Gas-in-Europe/2819/

 

But not every motorcaravanner is a forum addict, and I’m very doubtful that proponents/sellers of user-refillable gas systems take care to warn people that they should “buy gas designed to work properly in cold climates”.

 

You ask “how hard can it be?” to ensure that proper ‘cold climate gas’ is bought.

 

Gas buyers would need to be aware that ‘foreign’ autogas can contain a high percentage of butane and that this could cause cold-weather problems. They would then need to know which countries’ autogas should be cold-weather immune, which would mean they’d also need to know about and have access to the type of information in the link Keithl provided. And, even then, it should be apparent from the link that - where some countries are concerned - there’s no certainty that the autogas would be OK for cold-weather use elsewhere. And let’s not overlook the link’s caveat that "The table below contains a list of countries and most common propane/butane mixtures. This data should be seen only as to give you a perspective. Mixtures can vary from station to station and from company to company”.

 

So perhaps not quite so ‘simples’ after all...

[Tracker]

Agreed Derek - my commment was aimed at those on here who seem intent in continuing the discusssion long after that conclusion had been reached.

 

Quite how those who are not on the forum will learn is another issue and as you say one cannot rely upon the integrity of gas and refillable system sellers - assuming that even they even understand the potential problem.

 

Gosh - ain't life complicated!