anyone had their 2.3 fiat mutipoint remapped

[terry1956]

hi. as anyone had their 2.3 fiat multipoint engine remapped. if so what company did you use and what was the result. I had my old 2.8 fiat done and it improved gear holding in 5th, so an improvement. at the moment I have the 150bhp unit and find it a bit underpowered on long hills.

Please just list the facts, I have know interest in tales of 45mpg and 100mph.

thanks. michael

[Derek Uzzell]

I believe you own a 2014 Globecar “Campscout” that’s quite commonly driven heavily loaded.

 

I would have thought that the 2.3litre 150 Multijet unit should not prove underpowered in a motorhome of that size and type. Certainly the same motor (that’s far from fully run in) in my Rapido 640 deals with long hills well enough in 6th, though I suspect the Rapido’s gearing differs from your vehicle’s.

 

The 150 MJ’s performance figures are superior to those of the ‘basic’ 2.8litre JTD motor (respectively 148PS/350Nm versus 128PS/300Nm) so it OUGHT to be able to handle long inclines better in principle. A Pro-Mobil magazine test a while back suggests that the power/torque of individual Ducato motors may differ significantly from the factory figures, so perhaps your particular engine is down on power?

 

As the 2.3litre 150 MJ powerplant is fitted to plenty of large heavy motorhomes and there do not appear to be general complaints about its pulling power, I’m doubtful you’ll get a response regarding remapping as I think motorcaravanners who have vehicles with the 150 MJ will not feel a persuasive need for more oomph.

[terry1956]

so you have not had a remap I take it. nice to know that you know better then I how the ups and downs of the 2.3 engine/

[Derek Uzzell]

terry1956 - 2016-03-15 8:38 AM

 

so you have not had a remap I take it. nice to know that you know better then I how the ups and downs of the 2.3 engine/

 

I do my best. If you don’t like it Tough S***!

[747]

terry1956 - 2016-03-15 8:38 AM

 

so you have not had a remap I take it. nice to know that you know better then I how the ups and downs of the 2.3 engine/

 

It sounds like you may be climbing hills in 6th gear?

 

I would appreciate an answer as it could affect my reaction to your answer. :D

[terry1956]

hi. what I find on german motorways of late and with the van loaded is that at times it just goes flat on long hills. 5th then is to low and 6th is a bit high. as you may know the power band sweet spot is around 1500 rpm so there is know point in pushing pass that by dropping a gear and increasing engine rpm. I have been told that a remap will add 23% to the torque so bring it up to the level of the 3lt model. this should sort out the flat spot. I travel fast and hate being stuck in with the HGV,s and at times that's just the place I have found myself on long hills. michael

[747]

1500 RPM is far too low to run at. You are using the figure of maximum torque as your benchmark and it is way too low. No wonder you are having problems, it is not the engine, it is the driver.

 

For a start, it is uneconomical on fuel and secondly it is putting a strain on the drivetrain. The weak point of that is the Clutch and the Fiat Clutch is made of Cheese.

 

If you run at around 2,000 RPM you will not be wasting fuel and you should be changing down to 5th as soon as the engine revs start dropping off.

 

No doubt you will disagree but I'm not bothered as the odds of me ever buying a motorhome that you have owned and driven are astronomical. :D

[mgnbuk]

"5th then is to low and 6th is a bit high. as you may know the power band sweet spot is around 1500 rpm so there is know point in pushing pass that by dropping a gear and increasing engine rpm."

 

The power & torque curves for this engine can be found here :

 

https://www.fiatcamper.com/en/product/engines

 

From this you can see that the "sweet spot" for the 150hp 2.3 engine is between 1500 and about 2600 rpm - there is not so much as a torque peak as a torque plateau. You can also see that at 1500 rpm you are producing around 70 hp, while at 2500 it is nearer 120 hp. Labouring the engine at 1500 rpm in 6th will be doing more harm & using more fuel than dropping a gear & getting the revs up - after all, the engine will quite happily run to 4000 rpm, so 2 - 2,500 (and staying within the most efficient rev range) is just using the engine in the range it was designed to be operated.

 

FWIW, my 130hp 2.3 has a torque plateau from approx. 1750 to 2500 rpm (lower spec turbo than the 150 hp shows here) & I change down when the revs drop to 1800 or so to avoid lugging the engine. This is, after all, why multi ratio gearboxes are fitted - to operate the engine in it's most effective area under differing speed and load conditions. Out of interest, what speed are you travelling at in 6th gear at 1500 rpm ?

 

Unfortunately, this is another post that doesn't specifically answer you question. Again FWIW, I would not entertain a remap - you can't get "something for nothing". To get more than the rated power / torque by adding more fuel and / or changing EGR and turbo parameters will, if nothing else, adversely effect emissions (and by this I mean NOx, CO and unburned hydrocarbons, not just the particulates) and may well affect reliability (look up the problems Transits have with cracking pistons, apparently caused by overfuelling by the factory settings and apparently sorted with a "downwards remap").

[artheytrate]

Derek Uzzell - 2016-03-15 9:41 AM

 

terry1956 - 2016-03-15 8:38 AM

 

so you have not had a remap I take it. nice to know that you know better then I how the ups and downs of the 2.3 engine/

 

I do my best. If you don’t like it Tough S***!

 

Nice one! :D

 

John.

[Keithl]

Terry,

 

You're probably not going to like this but I agree 100% with Nigel (mgnbuk).

 

I was looking for a Power and Torque curve when he posted, but here's the one I found Link and it shows exactly what Nigel said, you need to be running higher in the 1,500 to 2,600 rpm range. And again as Nigel says keeping the revs much higher when hill climbing.

 

My suggestion to you would be to invest in a ScanGauge 2 Link to SG2 and set it up to show Engine Load as a percentage figure and also either specific fuel consumption (SFC) as Gallons per Hour (gph) or instantaneous fuel consumption as mpg.

 

The LOD %age is a measure of how much of the available engine power you are currently using. If you try and climb a hill and the engine is not producing enough power (ie so your speed is falling) then the reading will hit 99% (can;t display 100%) and your specific fuel consumption will rise dramatically.

 

I have one in my MH and have changed my driving habit so if the %LOD goes over approx 75% I change down a gear and can then see the % LOD fall and more importantly the SFC falls, ie I am using less fuel to produce the same power!

 

You can also monitor EXACT coolant temperature (not what F!at wants you to see on the dash) and you will also see the temperature rise and fall with the % LOD.

 

All in all you can achieve far more from what you already have without risking your engine with a retune.

 

This is MY opinion and I am quite happy to discuss the merit of a ScanGauge 2 if you want to message me.

 

Keith.

[terry1956]

I don't drive at 1500 rpm. I just said that's the sweet sport for the power. and when on long hill climbs 6th gear is too high and 5th to low to get any more from the engine. Yes you can ref the balls of the thing but it will not produce anymore power then the power curve will send to the wheels so its pointless. I have been driving for years, from glass 1 to tanks. also I am an engineer by trade so know a bit about engines.

also I don't really care about mpg, its a van it will not break any records on mpg. I just want a little bit more torque. and 23 percent is a bit more. and asked if anyone had the remap done. what I did not ask for was a job lot of BS from know alls who don't ever own the same type of engine .

 

[aandncaravan]

We do remaps and have remapped the 2.3 with good results, but we would strongly advise you not to have a remap done. As stated by all the others, your driving style is placing a big load on the engine and a remap is likely to do more harm than good in your case.

 

1500rpm is not the sweet spot for high gears. Your engine develops peak torque at 1500rpm, but as pointed out above the Horse power is developed way higher up the range.

 

At 1500rpm the engine might be hitting its peak torque figure, but this runs all the way to close on 3,000 RPM with hardly a dip in the Torque, at which point it is also developing a lot more Horse power. See graph below.

 

You are unlikely to gain any noticeable benefits by going for a remap, you will just load the engine even more than you are now.

We would suggest you consider 2,000rpm is your minimum revs when the engine is working hard?.

 

 

On the subject of the Puma, as mentioned above, we have rebuilt 2 failed engines. As usual just one of the Pistons was destroyed. The other three not just ok, but perfect.

On both engines the Injector spray pattern on the failed Cylinder was poor.

 

If you read some of the threads the comments/causes don't add up.

One company claims it is down to a faulty ECU that, as stated above is overfuelling.

If that is the case why does only one cylinder ever fail?

The ECU treats the Injectors pretty much the same. So why don't all the pistons go pop if they are all being over fuelled? Or at least show signs of stress?

 

Piston break up is usually associated with a weak mixture, not an over Rich one, like when an Injector picks up a speck of dirt or gets Carboned up.

Modern diesels run so close to the optimum mixture (more lean than ever before for emissions reasons), that the slightest thing can upset the Apple cart with serious results.

In our view, the quality and cleanliness of the fuel filter has become really key to ensure the fuel is squeaky clean.

 

 

So to join the two things covered so well by others above, a driving style of higher revs, is likely to lead to less carbon build up in the Cylinders/Emissions sensors minimising issues as the miles build up. With a major cost saving overall, without affecting MPG over much.

 

I shudder at the thought of an engine lugging a big Motorhome at 1500rpm in a high gear.

 

 

I think you owe Derek an apology.

He is one of the most helpful and clued up people on this Forum, a real asset.

 

 

 

 

 

[Keithl]

Thank you Allan for confirming we are not all talking BS!

 

I think Terry owes more than just Derek an apology!

 

I will no longer post to ANY of his requests for help.

 

I'm out!

[aandncaravan]

Keith, yes having seen the post that must have been added while I was writing mine, I agree. Apologies due allround.

 

[Brian Kirby]

I'll add my support for more revs! :-) Ours is a 2.3L 150hp Fiat Ducato base and, once it had initially loosened up, it revs freely and at 2,500 shows no sign of stress at all. Current mileage is about 15,500, and it is still improving. It is plated at 3,700kg, and generally runs at about 3,500kg.

 

It has been across the Alps several times, including on a few of the more minor passes, and across the Pyrenees via both Vielha and Bielsa. Steepish climbs on several of the passes, and the power was perfectly adequate for my requirements.

 

I have not noticed it struggling to keep ahead of trucks on motorway hills, though I do drop to fifth as soon as the engine begins to lose revs.

 

Maybe yours is still relatively tight? Ours was when new, and was a little reluctant to pull up hills until it got a few more miles in. I would then change down and let it rev more to maintain speed within reason, but keep the throttle relatively light in the process and not worry if it slowed somewhat.

 

Now, it is generally just a matter of either opening the throttle further, or anticipating the speed loss and changing down early. The throttle pedal has a long travel, and it is surprising how much more power it can dig up as it nears the floor.

 

So, same engine, different pattern of use, different van, different driver. Just telling it like it is for me, Terry, not trying to teach anyone anything! BS deflector now fully erected! :-D

[Tracker]

For what it is worth our Euro 4 (no DPF thankfully!) Peugeot 2.2 hdi 130 bhp also feels a bit strained at under 2000 rpm so I try to gear it to be pulling just over 2000 rpm most of the time when possible which it seems to like better and run smoother at.

Although now 5 years old it only has 9,000 on the clock and it is starting to free up a bit, hopefully not least from the 6,000 miles we have covered since buying it last year.

I have used tune up boxes in the past on both a 2009 2.3 Fiat (110 bhp I think?) and on a previous 2.2 Peugeot (also 110 bhp I think) but I have no inclination to do the same on this 130 bhp engine as the performance is certainly adequate and I too would be wary of extra strain on what appears to be basically the same engine and transmission as the 110 version and I would be unenthusistic about buying a Euro 6 with even more bhp from the same engine.

I just wonder how much further diesel engines can be pushed given the limitations of pollution control enforcing ever weaker mixtures without appearing to really contribute much to better fuel economy in the real rather than the theoretical world?

I too would certainly not ever remap preferring a plug and play removable box just in case of unforseen problems.

Alan's theory about partly blocked injectors creating an over weak mixture makes perfecr sense and I wonder now whther to consider - dare I mention it - an injector cleansing additive in the fuel?

Needless to say the oil and the oil and fuel filters get changed every year regardless of miles - what price peace of mind - with luck?

I too agree that insulting other members who post trying to help is not only rude but counter productive and perhaps an apology or two might be due from the OP.

[Robbo]

terry1956 - 2016-03-15 8:33 PM

 

what I did not ask for was a job lot of BS from know alls who don't ever own the same type of engine .

 

I try not to involve myself in criticism of fellow posters but the word "obnoxious" does come to mind.

 

I feel that Derek and other contributors are owed a big big opology. I just hope the OP will realise the error of his ways and learn from his inappropriate comments.

 

I'm always happy to learn from this Forum and am always grateful of other people's views but I never abuse the advice given in good faith.

 

 

[747]

terry1956 - 2016-03-15 8:33 PM

 

I don't drive at 1500 rpm. I just said that's the sweet sport for the power. and when on long hill climbs 6th gear is too high and 5th to low to get any more from the engine. Yes you can ref the balls of the thing but it will not produce anymore power then the power curve will send to the wheels so its pointless. I have been driving for years, from glass 1 to tanks. also I am an engineer by trade so know a bit about engines.

also I don't really care about mpg, its a van it will not break any records on mpg. I just want a little bit more torque. and 23 percent is a bit more. and asked if anyone had the remap done. what I did not ask for was a job lot of BS from know alls who don't ever own the same type of engine .

 

You certainly don't sound like you know a lot of engines by your first post. maybe you are not good at getting your question over very well.

 

I wish you luck with your extra 23%. :D

[Tracker]

terry1956 - 2016-03-15 8:33 PM

what I did not ask for was a job lot of BS from know alls who don't ever own the same type of engine .

 

As most auto engineers know, the principles of engine tuning remain the same regardless of the engine make.

All that differs is finding the right state of tune for the purpose the vehicle is to be used for and on that aspect alone all views deserve to be read, and even if not accepted at least not treated with rudeness and intolerance.

You may not be interested but as this is a public forum the topic does not belong to you alone. Other members will read the various postings and glean whatever they can from each - you never know one of these so called BS postings might just contain a gem of info that you were unaware of or had not considered so it really does pay to read them all.

If you really want to get the best out of this forum it would be better to be a little aggressive.

[747]

If the OP wants to find out the lowest number of revs which are 'comfortable' for his engine. he could do what I have always done with a new (to me) vehicle.

 

On a nice straight flat road. I run in top gear at a fairly low RPM (below 2,000 on a diesel engine). I then press the accelerator and see how the engine 'picks up'. I then try it at 100 RPM less each time. There will be a point where it struggles to speed up and that is the point you never want to get down to with your revs (or lack of them).

 

Like the OP, I also have an Engineering background but you don't need one in this instance, just an understanding of how engines work.

[Billggski]

No one has mentioned the clutch.

I had a remap on my diesel jaguar as I knew the transmission, suspension and brakes were the same as used for the 500bhp supercharged system, and I was just looking for more power.

I guess the 130bhp will have the same clutch and gearbox as the 150 version, so a mild re map would be OK. 180 would be pushing it (literally).

My new Volvo has an official remap option called "polestar", which doesn't invalidate the warranty, but is quite mild 20-40bhp which I assume keeps it within safe parameters.

But folk want something for nothing, plug in a fuel pressure booster for £80 and expect massive improvements in both performance and economy. It ain't gonna happen!

[747]

Billggski - 2016-03-16 5:58 PM

 

No one has mentioned the clutch.

I had a remap on my diesel jaguar as I knew the transmission, suspension and brakes were the same as used for the 500bhp supercharged system, and I was just looking for more power.

I guess the 130bhp will have the same clutch and gearbox as the 150 version, so a mild re map would be OK. 180 would be pushing it (literally).

My new Volvo has an official remap option called "polestar", which doesn't invalidate the warranty, but is quite mild 20-40bhp which I assume keeps it within safe parameters.

But folk want something for nothing, plug in a fuel pressure booster for £80 and expect massive improvements in both performance and economy. It ain't gonna happen!

 

Very strange 8-) it did for me. ;-)

 

And I did mention the Clutch earlier. :D

[aandncaravan]

To be fair 747 although you did mention the Clutch, it wasn't quite right? You said the Fiat Clutch was made of Cheese? But it isn't, it's made of Pasta.

If it was made of cheese they would most likely have used Parmesan, which is actually quite hard!!

 

I have it on good authority from Marco, whose Sister, Maria, was married to the son of the Supervisor, Valentino, whose Dad, Mr Rossi, worked on the Clutch assembly line and he said it was definitely Pasta.

 

 

When you slip the Clutch on an Italian built van, it SMELLS like Parmesan, so maybe that is what has got you confused?

 

(lol)

[Billggski]

Mine's definitely mozzarella.

[747]

aandncaravan - 2016-03-16 8:03 PM

 

To be fair 747 although you did mention the Clutch, it wasn't quite right? You said the Fiat Clutch was made of Cheese? But it isn't, it's made of Pasta.

If it was made of cheese they would most likely have used Parmesan, which is actually quite hard!!

 

I have it on good authority from Marco, whose Sister, Maria, was married to the son of the Supervisor, Valentino, whose Dad, Mr Rossi, worked on the Clutch assembly line and he said it was definitely Pasta.

 

 

When you slip the Clutch on an Italian built van, it SMELLS like Parmesan, so maybe that is what has got you confused?

 

 

(lol)

 

That lovely smell of Parmesan would waft the length of my Street as I carefully reverse my 3.0 litre Ducato up my gently sloping driveway. Which is exactly why I have never bought one, I would be fitting a Clutch once a year. In fact, that is a good idea. Why don't we have a Ducato Clutch Day along the lines of Fathers Day and Mothers Day?

 

I drive a Renault based van and up to now I have not detected the smell of Garlic coming from my Clutch.

;-)