Gas away from UK

[GarySueLola]

Hi - I'm sure this must be a common issue but I couldn't really find an exact answer on the 'search' function. We have a propane cylinder for our PVC that potentially runs the heating, hot water, hob, oven and 3-way fridge. We tour for quite longish periods in Europe but in our previous van (we swapped vans about3 months ago) we had no heating and a compressor fridge, but even then used campingaz as it is easily available away from the UK whereas "UK propane" is not available. I only had to buy gas once in mainland europe but was glad that I was using campingaz so I could do an easy swap.

 

While we tend to go in warmer seasons, our new van will undoubtably use more gas than the old, plus we may have only a part full canister when we want to leave, so what I would like to do is, if the propane runs out, to be able to swap between UK propane and campingaz and that way I know I can get more gas in mainland Europe if i need it. I'm sure I read somewhere it can be done. Does anyone know of any fittings to allow such a swap to be done easily and most importantly - safely!

 

I know I could convert to a refillable system and lots do this but I do not fancy that as I like to keep things like gas and electricity as straightforward as possible...yep, I know...I'm a wuss but I wouldn't be comfortable trying to refill from a petrol station. Therefore, I want it to be using already filled canisters and i'm happy to pay the extra for that peace of mind. Our gas cabinet has enough room for two canisters so I can carry the spare in there and it is sealed and vented.

 

If anyone can advise on the fittings needed for propane to campingaz and the safety of doing this I'll be grateful - thanks.

[Robinhood]

There are numerous suggestions for gas solutions for continental touring on here, a number of them quite recent, so other people may suggest other solutions.

 

However, to answer the direct question:

 

...assuming the new 'van has a bulkhead regulator which will work at 30mBar with both Propane and Butane (roughly, post 2006 most will), IMO the simplest solution is as follows:

 

From the regulator, fit a UK butane pigtail (21.8LH termination, and widely available).

 

Purchase an adapter for this 21.8LH pigtail to a UK butane POL connection (a "handwheel" one is convenient)

 

Purchase an adapter for this 21.8LH pigtail to Camping Gaz connection.

 

Ensure you carry the correct spanner for the non-regulator end of the pigtail, and swap adapters as required.

 

The following links are examples, you may find cheaper outlets and equivalent products:

 

http://www.gaslowdirect.com/epages/cyujrhdmmu67.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/cyujrhdmmu67/Products/01-6010/SubProducts/01-6010

 

http://www.gaslowdirect.com/epages/cyujrhdmmu67.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/cyujrhdmmu67/Products/01-1665

 

http://www.gaslowdirect.com/epages/cyujrhdmmu67.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/cyujrhdmmu67/Products/01-1665

 

[Derek Uzzell]

GarySueLola

 

I’m guessing that your La Strada Pronto has a Truma combination air/water heater. These appliances are gas-hungry when air-heating and, consequently, Truma advises that propane should always be used rather than butane because propane has a higher vaporisation rate and is relatively unaffected by cold weather conditions.

 

Campingaz canisters contain butane and even the largest 907 container only holds 2.75kg of gas. If you try to run a Truma ‘combi’ heater from a Campingaz cylinder there’s a fair chance that the heater’s demand for gas on its own will exceed the cylinder’s ability to supply, never mind when a hob, oven and fridge are factored in and might be in use simultaneously with the heater.

 

I’m not going to say “Forget Campingaz” but if you hit problems using it in your Pronto don’t be too surprised...

[GarySueLola]

Derek Uzzell - 2016-03-24 8:47 AM

 

If you try to run a Truma ‘combi’ heater from a Campingaz cylinder there’s a fair chance that the heater’s demand for gas on its own will exceed the cylinder’s ability to supply, never mind when a hob, oven and fridge are factored in and might be in use simultaneously with the heater.

 

I’m not going to say “Forget Campingaz” but if you hit problems using it in your Pronto don’t be too surprised...

 

Hmm, I'm not surprised by your advice as I know the largest size campingaz is quite small and puny. Yes, it does have a Truma combo.

 

At this stage, we're likely to be travelling in Europe in the three 'better weather' seasons so heater use should be kept to a minimum (we have a fan heater that works well on hook-up) but we may heat on board water, the fridge should mostly be on hook-up or leisure battery so hopefully we might eke out the smaller canisters. However, I do accept it is not ideal.

 

As I say, at this stage I am reluctant to go down the refillable route (which may be illogical and a bit pathetic of me as I know many do this successfully) so are there any other suggestions for long-terming away from the UK? Thanks.

[Keithl]

What size UK propane cylinder are you using and when you say your gas locker will take 2 canisters will it take 2 of whatever size you are currently using?

 

If you got a second UK propane you could then always leave the UK with at least 1 full cylinder and so should have enough without having to find refills abroad.

 

Keith.

[Derek Uzzell]

GarySueLola - 2016-03-24 12:59 PM

 

...so are there any other suggestions for long-terming away from the UK? Thanks.

 

I can offer you this earlier discussion

 

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Gas-in-Europe/38654/

 

(If nothing else it might amuse ;-) )

 

I’m guessing that a La Strada Pronto’s gas-locker is sized for a pair of Germany-norm 11kg gas canisters (or perhaps an 11kg and a 5kg as my Hobby’s was).

 

Pronto-related data from UK websites suggest that the locker is able to accommodate a pair of Calor 6kg(propane) cylinders, but probably not the larger UK bottles. If that’s so and you run out of 'UK gas’ abroad, unless you are in Germany at the time, you may have a lot of trouble finding a ’foreign’ bottle that will fit in your Pronto’s locker as ‘foreign’ bottles tend to have a significantly larger diameter than Calor 6kg containers.

 

There’s no hard and fast answer to your dilemma. You can take the Campingaz route, but if you will be abroad for any length of time and intend to motorcaravan outside the UK regularly in future it’s going to be an expensive approach and opting for a refillable canister will soon become more attractive financially and more convenient.

 

A Gaslow Direct Fill 6kg canister costs around £150 and is straightforward to fit and refill.

 

http://www.outdoorbits.com/gaslow-direct-fill-bottles-c-123_457.html

 

There are also ‘adapters’ that alllow UK-norm propane bottles to be refilled with autogas (example here)

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LPG-GPL-autogas-propane-bottle-refill-kit-adapter-with-safety-valve-/291493811863?_trksid=p2141725.m3641.l6368

 

Not looked on with favour and risky in the wrong hands (or even the right hands!) but they exist...

 

[GarySueLola]

Thanks for the replies and the link to the other thread which is very extensive indeed - I need to look at the bits and pieces to convert to campingaz, read the other thread (which will take some absorbing for me being a technical numpty), measure my locker, make sure the extension items will fit alongside the bottles and then also consider very hard the other option of refillable.

 

The one thing that makes me feel ok(ish) is that there does not seem to be an easy option that I'm missing so I now don't feel so stupid asking this.

 

Sadly, we're off on hols for 10 days (not in the van 8-) ) so I won't really get chance to study this until I'm back, but I will pick up on the thread then as I'm sure I'll have some other questions.

 

One idea that I have dreamt up - could I have a switchable connection in my flexible pipe with one end feeding off the propane and the other off the camingaz, rather than have what might be two or three connections at the end of the pipe that I would have to put on and take off as needed? This is the sort of thing I'm thinking of

 

https://www.calor.co.uk/shop/calor-essentials/changeover-valves-and-accessories/essentials-propane-manual-changeover-valve.html

 

Obviously I would want it to be safe but it might just be an slightly easier option - no problem if the advice is this would not work, it's just a thought.

[Tracker]

Having some idea of your type of use, whether you use sites with ehu or no sites at all, worst case climate conditions such as mountain areas, duration as well as knowing the sizes of the two largest gas bottles your gas locker will take will help decide the best course of action.

I use two 6 kg bottles, both connected via a simple 'T' piece as below.

http://www.gasit.co.uk/w20-t-adapter-mxmxf-with-non-return-valves.html

It is simple it is cheap and it works but you MUST remember never to leave the taps open on both bottles or you will run out of gas.

We use on average about a litre a day - more when it's cold, less when it's hot. More if you feel the cold and/or like a shower each every day, less if you can settle for a good wash some days as it is heating and hot water that really romp through the gas.

I have one Calor that is my backup bottle and one refillable that is normally in use and I have had no problem filling in any country using the right adapter although I have had to use the back up bottle for a day or so on a couple of occasions while I find a filling station that does gas.

However I do understand if you don't want to go down the refillable route, in which case you have three options.

Either take enough UK gas bottles with you to last, or rely on expensive and possibly unsuitable Camping gas (plus adapter), or consider buying a local bottle (plus adapter and possibly pigtail) that will fit in your locker in every country you visit or remain in for a longer period.

Tucked away in a locker is one similar to this - with a spare cylinder or two - just in case so we can always boil a kettle or make a bacon butty, but apart from the odd outdoor use we have never needed it - yet!

http://www.tesco.com/direct/yellowstone-steel-portable-gas-stove/181-1965.prd?pageLevel=&skuId=181-1965

[witzend]

You say Europe most of Europe uses different connectors But for France where it's no problem to purchase bottle gas from most super markets. So if you use one of these

 

http://gasproducts.co.uk/propane-pol-to-butane-adaptor.html?___SID=U

 

it will fit onto your French bottle and allow you then to screw on your British propane hose I use the Intermarche supermarkets for my gas they only charge 1 euro deposit and are located all across France.

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

I believe a La Strada Pronto carries its gas-bottles within the vehicle’s living area with the gas-locker accessed through the rear doors.

 

The locker should be able to accommodate at least one German 11kg canister and, in principle, it should then take a French 13kg bottle. But I wouldn’t bet on this and - if the locker won’t take the big French steel container and there’s a need to use smaller-capacity French canisters - the latter bottles all use a ‘snap-on’ connector and the propane-to-butane adapter would not be suitable.

 

If this gas thing is going to cause Gary heartache, it might be best if he go opt for the simplest possible approach of a Calor bottle and a Campingaz canister using the products mentioned by Robinhood, and forget about bells and whistles such as T-pieces and switchable connections.

[GarySueLola]

As I mentioned earlier we're away without the van so I can't do my measuring but in some idle moments I have been piecing together the options and thought I'd test my logic here. Please be kind in your responses as I am in very unknown territory....

 

I've not come to a final decision but I am still thinking of doing the option of carrying two gas cylinders, one propane and one campingaz and switching into the campingaz if needed when abroad. As far as I can see what I need to buy are a pol to butane connector and I think that is one of these

 

http://www.gasit.co.uk/leisure-gas-refillable-products/7-gas-pipes-pigtails-and-vapour-tank-accessories/gas-bottle-butane-gas-outlet-to-uk-pol-propane-adaptors.html

 

and this goes on my existing propane fitting, and has in effect made my connector a butane fitting.

 

I then need a campingaz to butane connector such as this

 

https://www.caravanaccessoryshop.co.uk/product/gaz-adaptor/414?gclid=Cj0KEQjw5ti3BRD89aDFnb3SxPcBEiQAssnp0rrycruVnEWtAmI_n3zMySnpLozZun6gmoz8K_z1U4caAkim8P8HAQ

 

and this will screw into the new/false butane fitting and then onto the campingaz cylinder.

 

This all seems a bit simple so if I've missed something or got the incorrect components please let me know. Out of interest, in doing these extra connections, obviously I will tighten them but are they safely leak-proof? (I know...I worry a lot!)

Thanks

 

 

 

[Tracker]

GarySueLola - 2016-03-26 4:22 PM

Out of interest, in doing these extra connections, obviously I will tighten them but are they safely leak-proof? (I know...I worry a lot!)

Thanks

 

You can buy a 'special' liquid that you spray on to gas connections or you can make up your own for free.

 

I use either an empty small emulsion paint tester pot from a diy store, or similar, and fill it with dilute washing up liquid which can be brush painted on the joints or alternatively an atomising type spray, like an empty perfume spray or kitchen cleaner spray works just as well.

 

If there is a leak tiny moving bubbles will appear at the joint. I generally dry it all off afterwards with an old tea towel to remove the liquid which often contains salt that can cause light surface corrosion or discolouration.

[Robinhood]

....from what I can gather of the 1st adapter, this should probably work.

 

I think I'd still rather take the approach I set out above, and replace the propane pigtail with a UK butane (21.8LH) one, and use only one adapter at a time (one a 21.8LH to POL as in my thread above, and the other 21.8LH to CampinGaz, as in my thread and in your own).

 

Simply fewer connections to go wrong in use, and at risk whilst changing over, though it's only an opinion.

 

I'm not fond of POL (propane) connections, as they are generally metal on metal, and prone to damage when disconnected and to leaks if not well tightened. The "handwheel" pigtails and adapters (as my link above) - and possibly some ordinary pigtails - have rubber "noses" which goes some way to ameliorating this.

 

The Camping Gaz adapter, whether using your method or mine, should always be fitted to the 21.8LH fitting with the appropriate-sized washer (21.8, not a W20, regulator-end, one!). A replacement pigtail will normally come with the required washers at each end, it isn't clear whether the Gasit adapter does or doesn't include one asis.

 

Though, as an aside, I could possibly see some advantage in taking your approach and also replacing the existing propane pigtail with a "handwheel" one. This would have the twin advantages of adding a rubber-to-metal seal rather than metal-to-metal, and also make any cylinder changeover tool-less (neither the POL connection, nor the adapter to Camping Gaz connections would need tools).

 

Pigtails (including handwheel ones, and complete with a non-return/excess flow valve for extra safety) are generally quite a bit cheaper here:

 

https://www.bes.co.uk/products/066.asp

 

...as is a Camping Gaz adapter

 

https://www.bes.co.uk/products/060.asp

 

...and the POL to 21.8 adapter! (with washer confirmed)

 

https://www.bes.co.uk/products/062a.asp

 

....You'll have to scroll the pages to find the items, and note the prices are ex-vat.

 

 

 

 

[GarySueLola]

Thanks RobinH and Tracker for your help and time. As I mentioned sadly I'm away from the van but from memory of looking a couple of days ago the propane connector and tube (I think this is the pigtail ?) sort of goes into the back of the gas cupboard with no obvious way of undoing it and that is why I'm thinking of keeping the existing tube and propane connector. I hope that makes sense.

 

Again, if I've got that wrong, sorry. I need to do this when we're back home, but on a wet afternoon my mind started working and I looked for bits and pieces. As I say, I'm still a way from making a final decision and am taking all your, and other posters', ideas on board.

 

However, at least I'm getting some understanding of the items if I have come up with a solution that might work, even it isn't yet the best/optimum solution !

 

Thanks again all.

[Robinhood]

....yes, it's (probably) the pigtail.

 

TBH, I hadn't considered the possibility that you might not have a bulkhead mounted regulator, but be using a bottle-top regulator (which is possible).

 

In the latter case, the regulator will attach directly to the bottle, and there will be a hose behind it going directly into the gas supply.

 

If it is a bulkhead fitting, there will be a pigtail between the regulator mounted somewhere fixed in the locker, and this will be secured to the regulator with a W20 normal (right-handed) thread connection with a W20 washer in place.

 

These are relatively easy to remove/change, and, as with any of the connections with a washer (or POL rubber nose) in place, any replacement should be tightened up to resistance, and then "a bit" - not overtightened. POL metal to metal connections should be well-tightened.

 

One potential advantage of replacing the pigtail is that if the existing one is relatively short, then sourcing a longer one gives the possibility of changing any adapters working outside the locker, rather than having to have head and hands inside.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Keithl]

Gary,

 

I still think you are over complicating things, and possibly heading for a very expensive gas solution.

 

My suggestion would be to get a second UK propane cylinder then your existing POL pigtail will simply move from old cylinder to new and job done!

 

You could even change your pigtail for one with a handwheel so you don't even need a spanner to make the change.

 

Sorry but what could be simpler?

 

Keith.

[Robinhood]

....I don't think there's a lot of expense in the solution being proposed (but the gas itself will be more expensive in the case of Camping Gaz).

 

I set out from scratch in answering the original direct question, but I must admit that subject to being able to fit 2 reasonable sized UK propane bottles (at least two 6kg, but preferably a 13kg and 6kg), I'd fit a butane pigtail, with a handwheel propane adapter, use the two propane bottles as required, and also carry the Camping Gaz adapter and (small) bottle as a backup.

 

It won't take long to find out whether the backup will be habitually required - In the days we travelled with the kids, invariably used sites, and generally in reasonably temperate weather, we hardly "bruised" our installed gas capacity, relying on hook-up. Things are a bit different now, but we still get by.

 

Incidentally, I've had little problem in the past exchanging partially-full bottles for full ones (at the normal cost, of course) to ensure we took a full complement of gas abroad. The cost of any such gas "wasted" paled into insignificance against the overall cost.

[Derek Uzzell]

Gary’s motorhome is a La Strada Pronto.

 

Although Gary has not provided his motorhome’s year of manufacture, I believe the Pronto was only built on the Mk 6 Ford Transit – so (roughly) from 2004 to 2006.

 

Examples of the Pronto are shown here

 

http://www.caravanclub.co.uk/caravan-club-classifieds/motorhome/la-strada/pronto?numberofresults=20

 

and there’s a 2005 Practical Motorhome review of a Pronto accessible on-line that shows the gas-locker arrangement. Use this link and then download the .pdf file.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q=032005_Practical_Seite1+-+La+Strada

 

It’s possible that left-hand-drive Pronto models marketed in Germany had an on-bottle 30mbar regulator as standard (with a connection suitable for a Germany-norm gas canister of course) as that was the case with my LHD bought-in-Germany Hobby motorhome. But a Pronto in right-hand drive format (which I assume Gary’s is) is much more likely to have a bulkhead-mounted 30mbar regulator somewhere.

 

It has to be said that, although it may not always be easy to identify the presence of a bulkhead-mounted regulator, there should be no doubt about whether or not a motorhome has a regulator directly attached to a UK-norm propane gas-bottle.

 

The simplest thing for Gary to do is to follow his own suggestions in his posting of March 2016 4:22 PM. He already has the necessary means to connect to a UK propane bottle and he already has a Campingaz canister. If he obtains ‘POL-to-butane’ and ‘butane-to-Campingaz’ adapters, that will allow him to use both types of bottle.

 

When I started motorcaravanning I used to do as Robinhood suggests when going abroad. Start off with two full 6kg bottles (because that was all my Herald’s locker could accommodate) and take a Campingaz canister as a ‘last hope’ back-up.

[Robinhood]

Derek Uzzell - 2016-03-27 10:16 AM

 

....I believe the Pronto was only built on the Mk 6 Ford Transit – so (roughly) from 2004 to 2006.......

 

 

...plenty of examples of Mk7 ones, e.g.

 

http://www.chelstononline.co.uk/used-motorhome-la-strada-pronto-motorhome-8740

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

OK, I stand corrected - but it’s evident from photos of Transit Mk 7-based Prontos that the gas-locker’s position and access remained unchanged.

 

I think the Practical Motorhome review’s comment is correct that the Pronto was only marketed in the UK, so it’s even more likely that the model will have been fitted with a bulkhead-mounted 30mbar gas regulator as original equipment.

 

I notice that the Practical Motorhome review can be more easily downloaded from here

 

http://www.la-strada.de/index.php?app=download&mod=files&groupid=1&categoryid=5&menuid=7&subid=28&language=1

[GarySueLola]

Hi - just for clarity, ours is on a RHD Mk 7 Transit (they put a lot more stickers on the Mk 7!), and while the interior is of similar layout it is quite subtly different too, the gas cupboard in the review is in the same place but looks smaller than ours as the cupboards at the back of our van are built up higher as they moved the sink. Ours will take two cylinders (one smaller and one full size) while the review van seems to only have room for one from the photo.

What I don't know (sorry again) is what is a bulkhead regulator?

[Tracker]

GarySueLola - 2016-03-27 5:41 PM

What I don't know (sorry again) is what is a bulkhead regulator?

 

If there is NOT a regulator attached to your gas bottle then there would be a heavy flexible gas pipe (aka pigtail) running from the gas bottle to a regulator which will be attached to the side of the gas locker, preferably, but not always, higher than the outlet connection of the gas bottles.

[Robinhood]

A bulkhead regulator is normally fixed to the side or back of the gas locker, and is directly connected to the metal gas pipe that disappears off to your appliances. From this regulator, you will have a "pigtail", which is a high-pressure hose screwed onto the W20 inlet on the fixed (bulkhead) regulator, and terminated at the other end in a connection appropriate for your gas bottle(s). (there are different pigtails for different bottles, but all have a W20 regulator connection at one end to attach to the regulator).

 

So, a bulkhead regulator is at the 'van end of any flexible hose. It also works at the same pressure for both butane and propane, such that only a change of connector (adapter or different pigtail) is required to change gas type.

 

Prior to the introduction of bulkhead regulators, the metal gas pipe was fixed to a low-pressure hose, which would be terminated (possibly jubilee clipped) by a regulator appropriate to the gas bottle you were using. This regulator was screwed directly to the bottle. Propane and butane regulators had different connectors (similar to the different ends of pigtails) and gas was supplied to the 'van at different pressures.

 

So, a "bottle top" regulator is at the bottle end of any flexible hose. Changing gas means a change of regulator (both to supply the correct connection, and to work at the different pressures).

 

The following pictures might help:

 

[yeti]

Avoid the hassle an get a Gaslow,Gasit refilable system installed.And you will save money per refill.

[Derek Uzzell]

GarySueLola - 2016-03-27 5:41 PM

 

Hi - just for clarity, ours is on a RHD Mk 7 Transit (they put a lot more stickers on the Mk 7!), and while the interior is of similar layout it is quite subtly different too, the gas cupboard in the review is in the same place but looks smaller than ours as the cupboards at the back of our van are built up higher as they moved the sink. Ours will take two cylinders (one smaller and one full size) while the review van seems to only have room for one from the photo.

What I don't know (sorry again) is what is a bulkhead regulator?

 

The review printed in March 2005 Practical Motorhome magazine was of a La Strada Pronto left-hand drive prototype. The review makes this clear and also says “Production models are now in the UK and will differ from it in some minor respects”. The review’s final page has a data section that specifies the vehicle’s gas capacity as “Two x 7kg” bottles.

 

I don’t think any other forum-member currently has a La Strada Pronto (or even has owned a Pronto). I recall looking at a couple of Pronto’s back in 2005 at a Shepton Mallet show, but not too closely. You are the expert when it comes to your motorhome and, when you say that your Pronto’s gas-locker will “...take two cylinders (one smaller and one full size)...” I (and other forum members) won’t know whether you mean one UK-norm 6kg bottle plus one UK-norm 13kg bottle, or some other combination. If the locker can accommodate a 6kg and a 13kg bottle, this could affect advice on how best you might deal with gas usage outside the UK.

 

This link may be helpful

 

http://www.campingandcaravanningclub.co.uk/helpandadvice/technicalhelp/power/gas-for-caravans-and-motorhomes/

 

and if you click on the “New - Gas for caravans and motorhomes” PDF button in the “Downloads” section towards the bottom of that webpage, you’ll find a ‘Datasheet’ with more information.

 

Dare I say this, Gary, but you are making a real meal of what should be a fairly straightforward issue.

 

Suggest you obtain this publication

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Motorcaravan-Manual-Choosing-Using-Maintaining/dp/0857331248/ref=dp_ob_title_bk

 

as this covers basic motorhome-related technicalities. If I had bought the book when I started motorcaravanning the learning-curve would have been much less steep.