BertyB Posted August 15, 2016 Share Posted August 15, 2016 Hello - Just some advice really as we purchased a brand new Swift Kon Tiki 649 Black Edition in June 2015. Since that time the motorhome has been used just once and covered only 350 miles. This is because it was delivered later than anticipated and we had holidays booked. The manufacturer needed to inspect the fitting of the roof bars (which took ages to happen), the vehicle was subject to a Fiat recall for an ignition problem (which again took ages) amongst other problems that meant it had to go back and fourth to the dealer! Our main concern however is that we discovered cracking in February 2016 on the body shell just under the overhead cab on either side. The cracking was addressed under warranty, but the again in March we discovered another 6 areas of cracking on the roof edges, by the awning and on the rear edge side panel. The cracks tend radiate from a single point as if a screw or nut is pressing against the body shell from beneath it. Given these cracks have appeared in just 8 months and after just one journey we have lost all confidence in the motorhome. Does anybody else have such experiences and if so what did you do? Did you go legal, allow repairs or ask for a replacement. We now just want rid of the vehicle which cost us almost £78k! Thanks for reading! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted August 15, 2016 Share Posted August 15, 2016 The cracks sound like Gel cracks, we had some of these in a similar spot, between fibreglass overpod and the metal cab, were fixed on warranty and havnt re-occured, this was on an Autotrail. Your snags list doesnt seem very long to me. Doesnt seem enough to reject the whole vehicle ? Unless there is much more you are not telling us ? None and I mean None, are completely without fault, doesnt matter how much you pay for them. Its how the dealer handles the faults that matters. Selling it will not recoup all of your 78 thousand, even with only 350 miles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thewad Posted August 15, 2016 Share Posted August 15, 2016 Wow I am no expert my any means, I think I would be extremely diapointed as well, what ever the problem is and to be honest should not be happening , is a 'snag' list common on a vehicle that cost £78k :'( ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BertyB Posted August 15, 2016 Author Share Posted August 15, 2016 Thanks for the reply. The dealer actually suggested that there could be something under the skin that had not been tightened correctly and that this could be pressing against the body shell causing the cracking. They suggested the manufacturer should take it back to get to the bottom of the cracking. Its been addressed once and has happened again. The other problems included broken thermocouple, broken gas valve, broken and incorrectly fitted window frame, over heating water system, faulty satellite, broken coaxial fitting and a faulty connection on the solar panel. The bars on the roof were all resealed. The vehicle came back from the bodyshop with a fine mist of white paint all over the wheels and front passenger door too! Its not about the cost its the fact that it has cracked in so many places in such a short time and with only one outing. We had a burstner a few years ago and had no problems at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 I believe you have to give the dealer the opportunity to correct any faults but that should be in a timely manner and ultimately, a permanent solution. If they are offering to send the vehicle back to the manufacturer this may constitute them trying to resolve the situation satisfactorily. In the meantime though, it may be worthwhile seeking some further advice from citizens advice or trading standards to verify your exact rights once you have explained the full background. Sadly, although the dealership may be willing to help all they can, these things have a tendency to become long drawn out affairs with no guarantee of a satisfactory outcome. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 BertyB - 2016-08-15 7:10 PM Hello - Just some advice really as we purchased a brand new Swift Kon Tiki 649 Black Edition in June 2015. Since that time the motorhome has been used just once and covered only 350 miles. This is because it was delivered later than anticipated and we had holidays booked. The manufacturer needed to inspect the fitting of the roof bars (which took ages to happen), the vehicle was subject to a Fiat recall for an ignition problem (which again took ages) amongst other problems that meant it had to go back and fourth to the dealer! Our main concern however is that we discovered cracking in February 2016 on the body shell just under the overhead cab on either side. The cracking was addressed under warranty, but the again in March we discovered another 6 areas of cracking on the roof edges, by the awning and on the rear edge side panel. The cracks tend radiate from a single point as if a screw or nut is pressing against the body shell from beneath it. Given these cracks have appeared in just 8 months and after just one journey we have lost all confidence in the motorhome. Does anybody else have such experiences and if so what did you do? Did you go legal, allow repairs or ask for a replacement. We now just want rid of the vehicle which cost us almost £78k! Thanks for reading! So, the van is now just over one year old, and has covered negligible mileage. Am I right in thinking that the low mileage is solely the result of the faults? If so, how did this come about? Were you advised not to use the van while awaiting resolution of the faults, or were you unable to use it because it was at the dealer's premises? During the periods while you were awaiting resolution of the defects, did you contact/write to the dealer asking for completion dates? If so, did they stick to the dates, or simply propose new dates? Did they say why it was taking so long to resolve? I'm a little puzzled that you seem to have taken the van back to the motorhome dealer to resolve the ignition problem, as this would have been rectified under Fiat's warranty, and would have required a Fiat Professional repairer to resolve. Why not go direct to the nearest Fiat authorised repairer? The cracking is difficult to assess without pictures, can you post some? However, the gel coat (I'm guessing this is what has cracked) should not crack. You describe the cracks as seeming to relate to items being screwed on from inside, and this seems feasible. Possibly the wrong length screws were used. Do you have any boat builders near you who make fibreglass hulls, or can you find one? If so, could you take your van to one and ask them if they can give an opinion as to possible causes? Have you looked inside the van in areas where the cracks are visible externally, to see if there are visible fixings for items of furniture etc? I'm also puzzled by the spray mist. I assume this was because the cracks were merely smoothed off, filled, and sprayed? Gel coats are usually self-coloured, and the repair should be carried out with the same colour of gel coat repairer. For this, return to the manufacturer of the GRP mouldings would have been more appropriate on a new van. The type of repair that seems to have been carried out seems to me what would be done by/for an owner of an older vehicle. It does not reinstate "as new" condition. I'm also somewhat surprised that the "bodyshop" was careless enough not to have properly masked the van body before spraying. Was this, by any chance, the dealer's "bodyshop", or was it carried out by a specialist repairer? The thermocouple and gas valve reported as broken (presumably on the fridge?) seem to me possibly to be linked, in that a defective gas valve might have been assumed to be a thermocouple fault. Might this have been the case? If so, was the van returned to you after the first failed part had been replaced without being fully tested and proved working, or did the dealer just report that they'd now discovered the true cause of the defect? Who fitted the roof bars, dealer or Swift? How was it discovered that they needed re-sealing? I'm assuming the dealer fitted the satellite dish and solar panel? What I'm trying to establish is which faults are due to the dealer's workmanship, and which to Swift's. The full liability for all the faults lies with the dealer, and it is the dealer who must rectify them, either via the manufacturer's warranty or at his own expense. He is legally bound to do this within a reasonable time, and it seems he has not met this aspect of his obligations to you. My suggestion is that you first gather together the dates of discovery of these various defects, of how and when you notified the dealer that they existed, and of when the dealer responded, including appointments for inspection and rectification, and dates when the various faults were, eventually, cleared to your satisfaction. Any letters or e-mails would be an advantage, as they will prove what was said and when. Having got all your ducks in a row, I would then talk to Citizen's Advice (CA), or your local Trading Standards (TS) people, to see where you stand legally (they will need to know the what and when, as above, which is why I'm suggesting you start there). You may be entitled to reject the van in view of the new cracks, but it is now August and those further cracks were discovered in March, which won't help. So, why has it taken five months to get to this point, or have the other defects you mention arisen in the meantime? David is right that the dealer has options in how he rectifies problems. He may repair, where this is acceptable, but the repair must be satisfactory, and the owner must be reasonable over what he will accept. The dealer may offer compensation, but again, both parties must be reasonable. The dealer may replace the item, up to and including an entire motorhome, but the replacement must be a reasonable equivalent of what it replaces - again to the reasonable satisfaction of both parties. Or the dealer may take back the goods and return all, or a reasonably acceptable portion of, the purchase price. The legal route will probably involve arbitration or mediation (at least initially) rather than a hearing before judge and jury. However, it is likely to be quite time consuming, particularly if the dealer drags his feet. Nevertheless, I would take legal advice before speaking further to the dealer (but after you have assembled the full history if your problems with dates, as above). You must, I'm afraid, accept that your right to outright rejection may have been prejudiced by the passage of time. Therefore, it is important that you do not do anything in the short term that may make matters worse. It would be worth also (but not, I would suggest, instead of talking to CA or TS), looking into all your house, contents, vehicle etc insurances, to see if any include a legal advisory section. Some include advice only, others include a right to actual legal representation in consumer matters). But, I would not actually contact them on this specific issue until after talking to CA or TS (or both if you prefer), to be sure that you don't actually initiate legal action before other avenues have been exhausted. Then, after having taken legal advice, so that you know exactly where you stand legally, proceed exactly as advised, being very careful to make notes of all conversations, with whom, and when, and to keep copies of all correspondence, whether electronic or on paper. It will be quicker to try to negotiate a satisfactory outcome with the dealer than to take the legal route, at least to the point at which you find you can't get agreement. If you take the steps outlined above you be able to do this from a position of strength, and this will become clear to the dealer during your conversations with him (of which you should make dated notes). You will not therefore need to directly threaten legal action, nor will you find yourself pushing for a settlement that is not available. That should enable the negotiations to proceed without either party becoming angry and saying things they later regret in court (if it actually gets to that point)! :-D Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BertyB Posted August 16, 2016 Author Share Posted August 16, 2016 Dear Brian Thank you for the detailed reply, much appreciated. We took delivery of the vehicle on the 4th June 2016 and firstly had a call in July 2015 from the manufacturer regarding checking the roof bars. Most of the snags were dealt with in a timely manner by the dealer. Delays occurred when they needed parts from the manufacturer but again we could cope with that. The manufacturer called us to say they would send an engineer to check the roof bars as there had been some issues with a number of them. This took about 8 weeks to organise and then an engineer came out and resealed the joints. After that we had holidays booked which meant we were unable to use the motorhome until October 2015. We took it for a 3 day visit to the Peak District and discovered the snagging issues - this has been its only outing! Between October and January 2016 it went back to have the snagging issues sorted, as parts came in from the manufacturer. This did not really concern us as we had decided not to use the motorhome again until after Christmas. In December we decided to clean the vehicle to prepare for over wintering and storage and noticed the first set of cracks. The dealer was notified straight away (December 2015) and photos sent to the manufacturer for a warranty claim. The manufacturer approved the claim and the vehicle was sent to the dealer approved body shop for repair. In January 2016 the vehicle went to the dealer to have the thermocouple replaced, which in turn highlighted a problem with the gas valve. The vehicle went back to the dealer in January to have the gas valve fitted and the cracking addressed. The repairs were carried out by a dealer approved bodyshop. When it came back it externally looked ok but was very dusty and dirty inside, which the dealer addressed and had a full valet carried out. The vehicle came back to our home and we decided to leave it on the drive rather than put it in storage, as we thought we would use it in April 2016. We were preparing the vehicle for its next outing in April when we noticed the next series of cracks (28 April approx), and on closer inspection we noticed the fine mist of white paint on the passenger side door, the bonnet, a wheel and the rear window. We emailed the dealer immediately and arranged for the motorhome to be photographed, this was delayed as we were away on holiday. We agreed that the dealer would look at the new cracks during the vehicles Habitation check on 6 June. This was carried out and the solar panel issue was sorted - this was only noticed because the vehicle battery was not receiving any charge from the solar panel, had run flat. We then had to wait for the manufacturer to approve a recall to the factory. We again went on holiday for almost 3 weeks. On our return we were contacted by the dealer who advised that the manufacturer had said the dealer should get the cracks fixed at their approved body shop and would not take the vehicle back to the factory. We contacted the dealer and said that this was not acceptable to us since we wanted to know what the underlying problem was, which had caused the cracks. The manager agreed and referred the issue back to the manufacturer saying that he had backed our case for them to carry our the repair. We were again contacted by the dealer to say that for a speedy resolution the manufacturer had said that it could go to a local bodyshop or it would have to wait until the end of November for a manufacturers engineer to come out and address the cracks. We politely declined both and said that before we made any further decision we wanted to know in writing what the underlying cause was, as we had lost faith in the integrity of the body. We also again said that our preferred solution would be for the factory to examine and repair the vehicle. as at present we no longer wanted the motorhome. We said that we would like a factory repair or replacement or even for the dealer buy back the vehicle or to sell it on for, as we were that disappointed with the whole thing. At present we are waiting for a dealer / manufacturer response to the underlying cause and what they propose. The dealer has been very helpful to date and we have had no complaints with their service. We ill have to see what happens next. Thanks again for the detailed advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyishuk Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 Maybe time to consider using the bolt on insurance that is offered with the motor insurance nowadays , or use one of the camping // caravans clubs legal services. The longer the vehicle is in your ownership, the more difficult it will be to offload either via Swift, or the dealer (( to sell on ???)), if that is the outcome. Rgds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lulu Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 Hi Berty, Sorry to hear of your problems with your motorhome, we bought our Kontiki 679 end of March this year, it also had to go to Fiat to sort out problem with mileometer light flashing constantly, we have a long list of work to be carried out by Swift when the vehicle is booked in for six weeks in September, we have just been on our first holiday in the van and while away we also noticed cracks appearing on the van at the rear, around the tail lights, also the rear corner covers have cracked and paint is coming off, silicone seals on trims at bulk head is coming off, and the amount of silicone around the van is abysmal , besides the above problems there are many more, we paid the same as you and can fully understand the disappointment you must be feeling, l suppose in this day and age we have become accustomed to buying things with problems, but it is really not good enough to spend a large sum of money on a motorhome and then have the hassle of taking it to dealers , having it photographed and then having to wait weeks for it to be booked in for remedial work, and then being told that the motorhome has to stay at factory for six weeks for work to be carried out, and the sad thing is we are not confident that all the work will be carried out satisfactorily, but what option do we have, we have to hope everything will be okay. I hope you get a solution to your problem. Lulu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike405 Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 Rayjsj - 2016-08-15 9:29 PM None and I mean None, are completely without fault, doesnt matter how much you pay for them. Its how the dealer handles the faults that matters. Well I for one don't agree with that statement. I have bought two Hymers over the years, direct from Germany, and neither has had to go in to a dealer for any sort of rectification work. I would love to buy British (my car is a Jaguar XF) but can't risk the poor build quality which plagues some of the manufacturers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thewad Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 What always amazes me or not generally, is how companies always try to limit there loss at the expensive of the '£85k customer' and is its a general view that uk motohome builders are of a lower std ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 mike405 - 2016-08-17 10:11 PM Rayjsj - 2016-08-15 9:29 PM None and I mean None, are completely without fault, doesnt matter how much you pay for them. Its how the dealer handles the faults that matters. Well I for one don't agree with that statement. I have bought two Hymers over the years, direct from Germany, and neither has had to go in to a dealer for any sort of rectification work. I would love to buy British (my car is a Jaguar XF) but can't risk the poor build quality which plagues some of the manufacturers. Then Mike, you have been very lucky with your Two Hymers, perhaps PDIs are done more thoroughly in Germany ? I know of many Hymer owners (uk sourced admittedly) who have had lists of problems,some quite serious. Even Carthago are not without faults. German manufacture is not the panecea that some folk believe, and I used to work for a German company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hagrid Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 We bought our new Hymer in the UK, now just coming up to 4 years old and 36000 miles, two faults, nothing to do with Hymer, a poor earth (Fiat) and a blown bulb. Interesting to hear that you say so many people have faults with Hymers, I would be very interested to learn more. As for warranty work, my blown bulb was replaced under warranty without question, authorised by Hymer and executed by another dealer 500 miles away from the supplying dealer. I have spoken to many many owners over the years, not one has complained of anything to do with Hymer, most faults reported are either to do with the base vehicle or ancillaries manufactured by Truma and Dometic which will be found on the majority of motorhomes, there was of course the exploding head light saga which was either faulty manufacture (Hella) or possibly distortion when fitted. I have also read people saying that Hymers leak but, without exception these seem to be vehicles around 20 years old which have required roof lights resealing due to age. When looking for a new MH I looked very carefully at many manufacturers, the finish and amount of sealant used on some is appalling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brock Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 Hymer's can leak such as when the rubber strips have not been properly applied to external lockers [minor fault on my last Hymer - fixed under warranty]. My current Hymer is three years old and had 9 faults. 1. Hob not fixed in correctly. Refitted under warranty. 2. Alloy wheels tarnished and replaced - tarnished again but warranty expired. Common fault. 3. Drive side window rattles - first two fixes didn't work, 3rd fix was a replacement unit. Now started rattling again. 4. Drop down bed failed - first fix lasted less than a month, second fix has been fine for last two years. Warranty claim for second fix was out of time but still done for free as original fix failed. 5. Broken window catch. I replaced. 6. Rattling passenger door. Fixed by foam padding interior of door under warranty. 7. Kitchen lighting plinth dropped out twice. Dealer fix failed, mine has lasted 30 months. Apparently, the rear lighting plinth falls out on other Hymers. 8. Flaps on 2 external covers broke just out of warranty. Common fault and the flap design is no longer used by Hymer. 9. Storage tray under passenger side broke - out of warranty. Weak moulding on one edge. Replaced by me. Not included above is the awful ride on poor road surfaces, little bits and bobs have just fallen off, sometimes from no obvious location. Almost every time we go away in the van, something seems to break or not work. However, the overall list is not that serious, especially compared to other manufacturers, the dealer has improved, and Hymer has met the warranty claims with minimal fuss. I reckon the faults reflect a change in design to keep weight within 3.5 tons, and poor ride quality. Hymer did the pdi before my van left the factory. The dealer just had to give it a quick check over and fit an alarm. The van left the dealer when new without any faults. The van doesn't leak or have damp and that was my first priority when buying it. It was fitted with front Goldschmitt springs at no extra cost, to the surprise of the dealer, Goldschmitt and Hymer. The layout suits us perfectly. I've had two Fiat problems with this van, one identified by the motorhome dealer and fixed under warranty by Fiat Professional and the second, at the MOT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BertyB Posted August 18, 2016 Author Share Posted August 18, 2016 Hi Lulu Thanks for the response. It is sad and we are waiting for a response now. I hope you get your problems addressed ASAP and to your satisfaction. Regards Betty PS Just been advised that ours is going back to the factory on the 14 November - watch this space! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Leake Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 Just a little tip. If you have a warrenty claim that is going to need a photo take one yourself and send as an attachment or a print by post to the dealer and save one trip. I've just done this for an awning light that had some LEDs out and needed to be replaced under warrenty when she went in for two year service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hagrid Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 Brock - 2016-08-18 1:10 PM 3. Drive side window rattles - first two fixes didn't work, 3rd fix was a replacement unit. Now started rattling again. 6. Rattling passenger door. Fixed by foam padding interior of door under warranty. 9. Storage tray under passenger side broke - out of warranty. Weak moulding on one edge. Replaced by me. Not included above is the awful ride on poor road surfaces, little bits and bobs have just fallen off, sometimes from no obvious location. Almost every time we go away in the van, something seems to break or not work. However, the overall list is not that serious, especially compared to other manufacturers, the dealer has improved, and Hymer has met the warranty claims with minimal fuss. I reckon the faults reflect a change in design to keep weight within 3.5 tons, and poor ride quality. The van doesn't leak or have damp and that was my first priority when buying it. It was fitted with front Goldschmitt springs at no extra cost, to the surprise of the dealer, Goldschmitt and Hymer. The layout suits us perfectly. Hi, is this an A class? Is it on a Fiat or Alko chassis? My Hymer also has Goldschmitt front springs as standard, I believe they are part of the comfort pack, it is on an Alko chassis, the ride is generaly very very good, it is only on the very worst surfaces that it can be noisy, it is certainly much better than a Rapido I tried. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyishuk Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 I seem to recall that similar problems occurring on the forum and comments made that the sat nav arial was in the mirror ( I could be wrong on that ?) I posted a link to device that I have that plugs into the cig guy / power socket and acts as a repeater sat nav arial and boosts the signal. For some reason (maybe iPad related ) I cannot find the thread or my original posting, to provide a link. Rgds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilreeves Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 I also bought a new Kontiki 649 and picked it up in May 2015. I have had lots of small problems. Mainly due to poor workmanship. Such as loose screws, badly fitted trims and a faulty light switch. Most of these could be stopped if they had a good quality control when the vehicle left the factory. But I think all manufacturers are cost cutting it today's climate. I have had Mercs new for 50K and had lots of problems. It is not just Swift. But I have looked all over my body panels and cannot and cracks what so ever. I have covered 9000 miles in the first 12 months. I also had a recall for the roof bars and the ignition switch but the roof bars were done at the dealers and the switch at Fiat commercial garage. My main problem with my motorhome has been the quality of the repairs the dealer has carried out. This is a major point I am taking up with my dealer next time I visit. I will be getting the MD out to look at my van and give his opinion of the quality of the work his fitters carry out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 tonyishuk - 2016-08-18 7:12 PM I seem to recall that similar problems occurring on the forum and comments made that the sat nav arial was in the mirror ( I could be wrong on that ?) I posted a link to device that I have that plugs into the cig guy / power socket and acts as a repeater sat nav arial and boosts the signal. For some reason (maybe iPad related ) I cannot find the thread or my original posting, to provide a link. Rgds Tony, I think you've posted on the wrong thread :$ Keith. Edit: Was this where you intended to post... http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Sat-Nav-Freeze/40645/#M504287 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyishuk Posted September 8, 2016 Share Posted September 8, 2016 A senior moment or too many web pages open , the jury is out. (I suspect the first *-) Apologies those that may be confused by my random posting. Rgds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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