antony1969 Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 Bulletguy - 2016-10-19 1:48 AM antony1969 - 2016-10-18 5:39 PM The 2 main moaners for a second referendum are 2 of the biggest political losers in recent times , Nick Clegg and Dead Milliband ... Kinda says a lot about the moaners really Really? You forgot what this bloke said about a second referendum!! http://www.briefreport.co.uk/news/remember-that-time-nigel-farage-said-52-48-votes-should-lead-to-second-referendum-4225477.html So did he because it quickly got hushed up once the result rolled in. Now of course he's busy promoting UKIP boxing matches and a spot of pr work for The Donald. *-) As for Miliband, well far from banging on about a second referendum he actually got heckled at the Labour conference for telling them NOT to campaign for one. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3806799/Ed-Miliband-heckled-Labour-member-tells-party-NOT-campaign-second-EU-referendum.html. Point is ??? I'm not Farages number 1 fan ... Add him to the list for me if you want As for Dead , he may not want a 2nd referendum , but he does want to be part of the exit agreement process as a member of parliament and not let government agree the terms ... I ask why do we need 2 of the biggest losers Clegg and him to be part of the discussions when they have massively been rejected by the British public ... As for his heckling at the conference , I'd imagine anyone associated with Blair's Labour Party would get heckled these days at the party conference , that's the new Corbyn era for ya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 Violet1956 - 2016-10-18 11:53 PM pelmetman - 2016-10-18 5:45 PM Funny how we were qualified to vote to join.....but not to leave *-) ....... No one has said we were qualfied to vote to join although some of us obviously think that on balace it was a good thing that we did, some of us are not so sure, and some of us think it was one of the worst things we ever did. The inherent weakness in using referenda remain as far as securing the effective governance of a country is concerned. One example being (and I know it is not a popular view on here) that a much higher proportion of the people whose likely future spans decades voted to remain than those who do not have such a life span left, the latter being most protected from the possible, some say probable adverse outcomes of voting to leave. The potential loss to younger people in terms of jobs and rises in the cost of living when they are usually on low incomes to start with as compared with the increased price of a motorhome and the rise in the cost of go abroad on holiday for retired baby boomers on final salary indexed linked pensions speaks volumes to me about the bias on this forum. The so called "tyranny of the majority" has prevailed for the relatively short term over which a large proportion of that majority who voted in favour of Brexit will get to benefit from the outcome they desired. A representative democracy has a much wider perview in that our elected representatives have to strive to make decisions that serve as far as possible the interests of all members of society and consider the potential long term effect of any change in policy before changing it. They are also accountable for any bad policy decisions they make. Veronica The reason the majority of the votes to leave came from the older demographic, is because "they" have the experience of 40 years of membership to base their opinion on ;-) ........ Unlike the idealistic younger generation who like Barry have yet to discover how the real world works :D ........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derek pringle Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 Hi All, When people say we should have a further vote after the terms have been negotiated, I believe we have in a way because Cameron tried to negotiate better terms to ensure we would vote to stay in, before the referendum took place. We also know he got very little in the way of concessions on any of the points he put forward. Do we not now seem to be in a position of the UK and the other EU countries sitting together with a blank piece of paper and starting from there? cheers derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet1956 Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 pelmetman - 2016-10-19 8:59 AM Violet1956 - 2016-10-18 11:53 PM pelmetman - 2016-10-18 5:45 PM Funny how we were qualified to vote to join.....but not to leave *-) ....... No one has said we were qualfied to vote to join although some of us obviously think that on balace it was a good thing that we did, some of us are not so sure, and some of us think it was one of the worst things we ever did. The inherent weakness in using referenda remain as far as securing the effective governance of a country is concerned. One example being (and I know it is not a popular view on here) that a much higher proportion of the people whose likely future spans decades voted to remain than those who do not have such a life span left, the latter being most protected from the possible, some say probable adverse outcomes of voting to leave. The potential loss to younger people in terms of jobs and rises in the cost of living when they are usually on low incomes to start with as compared with the increased price of a motorhome and the rise in the cost of go abroad on holiday for retired baby boomers on final salary indexed linked pensions speaks volumes to me about the bias on this forum. The so called "tyranny of the majority" has prevailed for the relatively short term over which a large proportion of that majority who voted in favour of Brexit will get to benefit from the outcome they desired. A representative democracy has a much wider perview in that our elected representatives have to strive to make decisions that serve as far as possible the interests of all members of society and consider the potential long term effect of any change in policy before changing it. They are also accountable for any bad policy decisions they make. Veronica The reason the majority of the votes to leave came from the older demographic, is because "they" have the experience of 40 years of membership to base their opinion on ;-) ........ Unlike the idealistic younger generation who like Barry have yet to discover how the real world works :D ........... You may be right Dave and the eventual outcome of Brexit may be good for us all due to your experience of the "real world" but the point I was making is that there are many political theorists who think that referenda are not the best way to determine issues like this. I'm no expert but from what I've been reading on the subject I believe they have been proved right. Direct democracy as engendered by referenda failed in Ancient Greece and the Roman system of representative democracy saw the Romans prosper. :-) Your 40 years' experience doesn't compare with some lessons from history. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 Violet1956 - 2016-10-19 10:07 AM You may be right Dave and the eventual outcome of Brexit may be good for us all due to your experience of the "real world" but the point I was making is that there are many political theorists who think that referenda are not the best way to determine issues like this. I'm no expert but from what I've been reading on the subject I believe they have been proved right. Direct democracy as engendered by referenda failed in Ancient Greece and the Roman system of representative democracy saw the Romans prosper. :-) Your 40 years' experience doesn't compare with some lessons from history. :-) Another lesson from history ;-) ..........All empires fail B-) .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet1956 Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 pelmetman - 2016-10-19 10:11 AM Violet1956 - 2016-10-19 10:07 AM You may be right Dave and the eventual outcome of Brexit may be good for us all due to your experience of the "real world" but the point I was making is that there are many political theorists who think that referenda are not the best way to determine issues like this. I'm no expert but from what I've been reading on the subject I believe they have been proved right. Direct democracy as engendered by referenda failed in Ancient Greece and the Roman system of representative democracy saw the Romans prosper. :-) Your 40 years' experience doesn't compare with some lessons from history. :-) Another lesson from history ;-) ..........All empires fail B-) .......... Touche (apologies for using a bit of French) ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 pelmetman - 2016-10-19 8:59 AM Violet1956 - 2016-10-18 11:53 PM pelmetman - 2016-10-18 5:45 PM Funny how we were qualified to vote to join.....but not to leave *-) ....... No one has said we were qualfied to vote to join although some of us obviously think that on balace it was a good thing that we did, some of us are not so sure, and some of us think it was one of the worst things we ever did. The inherent weakness in using referenda remain as far as securing the effective governance of a country is concerned. One example being (and I know it is not a popular view on here) that a much higher proportion of the people whose likely future spans decades voted to remain than those who do not have such a life span left, the latter being most protected from the possible, some say probable adverse outcomes of voting to leave. The potential loss to younger people in terms of jobs and rises in the cost of living when they are usually on low incomes to start with as compared with the increased price of a motorhome and the rise in the cost of go abroad on holiday for retired baby boomers on final salary indexed linked pensions speaks volumes to me about the bias on this forum. The so called "tyranny of the majority" has prevailed for the relatively short term over which a large proportion of that majority who voted in favour of Brexit will get to benefit from the outcome they desired. A representative democracy has a much wider perview in that our elected representatives have to strive to make decisions that serve as far as possible the interests of all members of society and consider the potential long term effect of any change in policy before changing it. They are also accountable for any bad policy decisions they make. Veronica The reason the majority of the votes to leave came from the older demographic, is because "they" have the experience of 40 years of membership to base their opinion on ;-) ........ Unlike the idealistic younger generation who like Barry have yet to discover how the real world works :D ........... Well firstly let me thank you for including me in the younger generation, thats very kind. I am also over joyed to find out I have a "real" world to discover. I thought I had seen it all having worked and travelled all over Europe and outside of Europe, had a job in the private sector that saw me spend time as a senior manager responsible for over 300 outlets in the UK and 150 overseas before spending the last 15 years running my own business working in both the private and public sector but generally down at grass root level working with SME's all over the country. I am delighted to know there is a entire "real" world to discover I know nothing about. :D I have definitely seen the benefits of EU membership though. Loads of stuff I worked on was EU funded. Loads of my clients had EU funding. I worked on projects in the North East and places like Cornwall that were partly or fully funded by EU money (yes our money I know). Saw hundreds of businesses and individuals benefit from that. Ironically those areas voted out. *-) I have also seen and worked through a blooming awful recession and watched others hang on by the tips of their fingers. All the above led me to believe that shooting yourself in the foot with a self induced economic disaster because some people dont like foreigners was a bad idea. I stand to be corrected and wrong though once I see the fantastic real world that awaits me. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 Barryd999 - 2016-10-19 11:41 AM Ironically those areas voted out. *-) So what does that tell you about the real world? ;-) ............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet1956 Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 pelmetman - 2016-10-19 11:48 AM Barryd999 - 2016-10-19 11:41 AM Ironically those areas voted out. *-) So what does that tell you about the real world? ;-) ............. It tells me that if a referendum is going to achieve the best outcome then those who vote in it must be in a position to making a well-informed choice as opposed to reacting to the buttons pushed by those who tell lies, omit predictions as to the likely effect of the two possible outcomes on particular sections of the voting public and rubbish expert opinions on no basis whatsoever. That said we still don't know things will turn out right in the end but it's not looking good for some or even a majority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 pelmetman - 2016-10-19 11:48 AM Barryd999 - 2016-10-19 11:41 AM Ironically those areas voted out. *-) So what does that tell you about the real world? ;-) ............. They are stupid and deserve all that's coming to them. (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 Barryd999 - 2016-10-19 12:17 PM pelmetman - 2016-10-19 11:48 AM Barryd999 - 2016-10-19 11:41 AM Ironically those areas voted out. *-) So what does that tell you about the real world? ;-) ............. They are stupid and deserve all that's coming to them. (lol) Or that after 40 years the EU has not provided any tangible benefits to the majority of the UK......apart from topping up your Leffe locker ;-) ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 Barryd999 - 2016-10-19 12:17 PM pelmetman - 2016-10-19 11:48 AM Barryd999 - 2016-10-19 11:41 AM Ironically those areas voted out. *-) So what does that tell you about the real world? ;-) ............. They are stupid and deserve all that's coming to them. (lol) Shouldn't be allowed to vote ... All manual workers , the unskilled , those without a certain amount of qualifications , northerners , right wing gutter press readers , those who like football and so on ... They just can't take in all the info , especially if it's a Coronation Street night ... Leave it to those who know like the 48% that voted remain I say Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 antony1969 - 2016-10-19 12:26 PM Barryd999 - 2016-10-19 12:17 PM pelmetman - 2016-10-19 11:48 AM Barryd999 - 2016-10-19 11:41 AM Ironically those areas voted out. *-) So what does that tell you about the real world? ;-) ............. They are stupid and deserve all that's coming to them. (lol) Shouldn't be allowed to vote ... All manual workers , the unskilled , those without a certain amount of qualifications , northerners , right wing gutter press readers , those who like football and so on ... They just can't take in all the info , especially if it's a Coronation Street night ... Leave it to those who know like the 48% that voted remain I say No doubt those who voted remain were "Qualified" to vote ;-) ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet1956 Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 pelmetman - 2016-10-19 12:23 PM Barryd999 - 2016-10-19 12:17 PM pelmetman - 2016-10-19 11:48 AM Barryd999 - 2016-10-19 11:41 AM Ironically those areas voted out. *-) So what does that tell you about the real world? ;-) ............. They are stupid and deserve all that's coming to them. (lol) Or that after 40 years the EU has not provided any tangible benefits to the majority of the UK...... And your evidence for that statement is what Dave? At least Barry gave us some examples of tangible benefits he witnessed first hand. I can't see how it is possible to separate out the causes leading to the marked improvement in the economic prosperity of people in the UK when compared with the the dire situation we were in when we joined in the 70s from other factors not connected to membership of the EU. I would look to the evidence and opinions presented by experts on that one. I don't pretend to know the degree to which membership has played in improving our standard of living. However that's quite different from saying that the EU has not provided any tangible benefits for the majority. That is a very subjective view of what is or is not a benefit of membership. You're entitled to it but you can't speak for the majority. In anticipation that you will remind me that a majority who voted for Brexit share your view I would observe that some of the 52% of people who voted for it did so on a perception that it would serve their best interests. That perception was fed to them by disingenious people serving their own. Now when the "real world" is emerging from the discussion about what may or may not be actually achieved by Brexit and how some who voted out might be adversely affected is beginning to dawn on some of them they are beginning to question whether they did the right thing. I wouldn't say they are stupid or that deserve what they get. The people who are now in a state of fear and uncertainty about their future post-Brexit due to what is happening now are not to blame. I bet you Nigel, Boris, Fox etc aren't going to suffer much, if at all, if the post Brexit negotiations don't go well for us and that's what gets my goat. Veronica Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 Violet1956 - 2016-10-19 1:25 PM pelmetman - 2016-10-19 12:23 PM Barryd999 - 2016-10-19 12:17 PM pelmetman - 2016-10-19 11:48 AM Barryd999 - 2016-10-19 11:41 AM Ironically those areas voted out. *-) So what does that tell you about the real world? ;-) ............. They are stupid and deserve all that's coming to them. (lol) Or that after 40 years the EU has not provided any tangible benefits to the majority of the UK...... And your evidence for that statement is what Dave? At least Barry gave us some examples of tangible benefits he witnessed first hand. I can't see how it is possible to separate out the causes leading to the marked improvement in the economic prosperity of people in the UK when compared with the the dire situation we were in when we joined in the 70s from other factors not connected to membership of the EU. I would look to the evidence and opinions presented by experts on that one. I don't pretend to know the degree to which membership has played in improving our standard of living. However that's quite different from saying that the EU has not provided any tangible benefits for the majority. That is a very subjective view of what is or is not a benefit of membership. You're entitled to it but you can't speak for the majority. In anticipation that you will remind me that a majority who voted for Brexit share your view I would observe that some of the 52% of people who voted for it did so on a perception that it would serve their best interests. That perception was fed to them by disingenious people serving their own. Now when the "real world" is emerging from the discussion about what may or may not be actually achieved by Brexit and how some who voted out might be adversely affected is beginning to dawn on some of them they are beginning to question whether they did the right thing. I wouldn't say they are stupid or that deserve what they get. The people who are now in a state of fear and uncertainty about their future post-Brexit due to what is happening now are not to blame. I bet you Nigel, Boris, Fox etc aren't going to suffer much, if at all, if the post Brexit negotiations don't go well for us and that's what gets my goat. Veronica Who are these people who are beginning to question what they voted for ? Where are they ? ... I could accept the argument more if in reasonable numbers they could show us these people ... I'm sure that on the remain side some voted that way because they were scared the world was going to collapse as forecast , they too might have voted differently Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 Violet1956 - 2016-10-19 1:25 PM In anticipation that you will remind me that a majority who voted for Brexit share your view I would observe that some of the 52% of people who voted for it did so on a perception that it would serve their best interests. That perception was fed to them by disingenious people serving their own. Veronica ......and the remainers Expert opinion was not disingenuous? ;-) ........ Current evidence appears to show that if they were not disingenuous, then they are incompetent :D ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 antony1969 - 2016-10-19 12:26 PM Barryd999 - 2016-10-19 12:17 PM pelmetman - 2016-10-19 11:48 AM Barryd999 - 2016-10-19 11:41 AM Ironically those areas voted out. *-) So what does that tell you about the real world? ;-) ............. They are stupid and deserve all that's coming to them. (lol) Shouldn't be allowed to vote ... All manual workers , the unskilled , those without a certain amount of qualifications , northerners , right wing gutter press readers , those who like football and so on ... They just can't take in all the info , especially if it's a Coronation Street night ... Leave it to those who know like the 48% that voted remain I say Finally you are talking sense. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 antony1969 - 2016-10-19 1:38 PM Violet1956 - 2016-10-19 1:25 PM pelmetman - 2016-10-19 12:23 PM Barryd999 - 2016-10-19 12:17 PM pelmetman - 2016-10-19 11:48 AM Barryd999 - 2016-10-19 11:41 AM Ironically those areas voted out. *-) So what does that tell you about the real world? ;-) ............. They are stupid and deserve all that's coming to them. (lol) Or that after 40 years the EU has not provided any tangible benefits to the majority of the UK...... And your evidence for that statement is what Dave? At least Barry gave us some examples of tangible benefits he witnessed first hand. I can't see how it is possible to separate out the causes leading to the marked improvement in the economic prosperity of people in the UK when compared with the the dire situation we were in when we joined in the 70s from other factors not connected to membership of the EU. I would look to the evidence and opinions presented by experts on that one. I don't pretend to know the degree to which membership has played in improving our standard of living. However that's quite different from saying that the EU has not provided any tangible benefits for the majority. That is a very subjective view of what is or is not a benefit of membership. You're entitled to it but you can't speak for the majority. In anticipation that you will remind me that a majority who voted for Brexit share your view I would observe that some of the 52% of people who voted for it did so on a perception that it would serve their best interests. That perception was fed to them by disingenious people serving their own. Now when the "real world" is emerging from the discussion about what may or may not be actually achieved by Brexit and how some who voted out might be adversely affected is beginning to dawn on some of them they are beginning to question whether they did the right thing. I wouldn't say they are stupid or that deserve what they get. The people who are now in a state of fear and uncertainty about their future post-Brexit due to what is happening now are not to blame. I bet you Nigel, Boris, Fox etc aren't going to suffer much, if at all, if the post Brexit negotiations don't go well for us and that's what gets my goat. Veronica Who are these people who are beginning to question what they voted for ? Where are they ? ... I could accept the argument more if in reasonable numbers they could show us these people ... I'm sure that on the remain side some voted that way because they were scared the world was going to collapse as forecast , they too might have voted differently I posted this morning that the worm is turning. http://www.aol.co.uk/living/2016/10/17/aol-poll-finds-collapse-in-support-for-brexit/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 Barryd999 - 2016-10-19 2:44 PM I posted this morning that the worm is turning. http://www.aol.co.uk/living/2016/10/17/aol-poll-finds-collapse-in-support-for-brexit/ How many UK readers do you think America online has got Barry? ;-) ..........More than the DM? :D ...... Or less than the Independent? >:-) .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Leake Posted October 19, 2016 Author Share Posted October 19, 2016 When I started this thread I thought it may generate a few comments but never anticipated the direction it would eventually take. Hope your all enjoying yourselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet1956 Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 Colin Leake - 2016-10-19 7:02 PM When I started this thread I thought it may generate a few comments but never anticipated the direction it would eventually take. Hope your all enjoying yourselves. I am. Thank you Colin for starting this thread. :-) Veronica Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 pelmetman - 2016-10-17 10:04 AM Brian Kirby - 2016-10-13 7:10 PM pelmetman - 2016-10-13 10:12 AM Brian Kirby - 2016-10-12 10:25 PM But seriously, what has "Brussels" (a.k.a. the EU) imposed on the UK to its detriment, and how will leaving the EU rectify those issues? How about not having 26 other countries deciding how we run our own? ;-) .......... I said seriously, Dave. You're showing signs of paranoia now you're getting close to achieving your nightmare. Same question, what has "Brussels" (a.k.a. the EU) imposed on the UK to its detriment? Saying 26 other countries reach agreements, along with the UK, that are then accepted by all, isn't specific. I'm after the specifics, not the sound bites! :-D Somehow missed your post Brian :-S ........How about a 24.7 billion a year detriment to the UK 8-) ....... .......and that's from a "Pro Europe" group *-) .......... http://openeurope.org.uk/intelligence/britain-and-the-eu/100-most-expensive-eu-regulations/ Well found, and interesting, though a bit generalised. So yes, we could dump that lot, though many UK employees would rue the day. Requiring banks to hold more capital, or strengthening insurance controls seem good ideas to me, though a wild west approach to financial services would probably appeal to some. Doing away with thermal insulation requirements for buildings would make things better for the energy companies, at the expense of anyone whose home or office was poorly insulated, but hey, if that's the world you want, I'm at last beginning to understand why you voted out! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 Brian Kirby - 2016-10-19 7:22 PM Well found, and interesting, though a bit generalised. So yes, we could dump that lot, though many UK employees would rue the day. I suspect even more UK employees rue the day Mr Blair opened the doors to Poland :-| ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 Brian Kirby - 2016-10-19 7:22 PM Requiring banks to hold more capital, or strengthening insurance controls seem good ideas to me, though a wild west approach to financial services would probably appeal to some. Could we not do that ourselves? :-| ............Seeing as we're apparently a major financial centre ;-)....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 Brian Kirby - 2016-10-19 7:22 PM Doing away with thermal insulation requirements for buildings would make things better for the energy companies, at the expense of anyone whose home or office was poorly insulated, but hey, if that's the world you want, I'm at last beginning to understand why you voted out! :-D You mean like that EPC (energy performance certificate) that the EU made me buy prior to putting my house on the market? *-) ......... Is there actually any anorak out there that even looks at it before buying a house???? 8-) ...... Coz if there is please put a big sticker on their heads so I can avoid them :D ...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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