Banner batteries again

[aandncaravan]

I guess I should qualify why I say Lead Antimony batteries (usually the technology of choice for old School Deep Cycle batteries) lose so much fluid with modern Motorhome chargers and practises?

Particularly my statement, "Likewise an Antimony battery on permanent 14.2v Solar charge is likely to lose quite a lot of fluid".

Maybe presenting the evidence to back the claim up here, might reduce the 'Flak' I normally get on this subject?

 

If you look at the bottom of our 'EHU Full time - Yes/No??' page : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/ehu-full-time-yes-or-no.php you will find a document from a battery expert, Steve Clark, who explains why Lead Antimony batteries should not be 'constant charged', for example on EHU or by Solar :

 

"Lead-Antimony alloys are not well suited for stand-by service with a constant charge. The phenomenon of antimony-poisoning where antimony from the grid alloy forms small discharge points on the negative plate surface is a direct result of continuous charging. This results in a continuously increasing float current and water consumption over the life of the battery. The rate of antimony-poisoning is directly related to the operating temperature, charging voltage and the antimony content of the alloy".

 

 

It's a known issue and well documented by many battery specialists.

 

This is in addition to the accelerated corrosion they will most likely endure.

 

The Victron Energy document, also published on the same web page, notes,

"batteries with a high antimony content will need frequent topping up.....

 

 

Note that Varta LFD/Bosch L5 Powerframe batteries do not suffer the phenomenon above, as they are low Antimony technology.

But we still wouldn't recommend long term EHU or permanent Solar connection with a Powerframe battery, even with the likes of a Victron Solar regulator with a low 'true maintenance' charge rate.

 

 

 

.

 

[david lloyd]

aandncaravan - 2016-11-11 12:22 AM

 

I guess I should qualify why I say Lead Antimony batteries (usually the technology of choice for old School Deep Cycle batteries) lose so much fluid with modern Motorhome chargers and practises?

Particularly my statement, "Likewise an Antimony battery on permanent 14.2v Solar charge is likely to lose quite a lot of fluid".

Maybe presenting the evidence to back the claim up here, might reduce the 'Flak' I normally get on this subject?

 

If you look at the bottom of our 'EHU Full time - Yes/No??' page : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/ehu-full-time-yes-or-no.php you will find a document from a battery expert, Steve Clark, who explains why Lead Antimony batteries should not be 'constant charged', for example on EHU or by Solar :

 

"Lead-Antimony alloys are not well suited for stand-by service with a constant charge. The phenomenon of antimony-poisoning where antimony from the grid alloy forms small discharge points on the negative plate surface is a direct result of continuous charging. This results in a continuously increasing float current and water consumption over the life of the battery. The rate of antimony-poisoning is directly related to the operating temperature, charging voltage and the antimony content of the alloy".

 

 

It's a known issue and well documented by many battery specialists.

 

This is in addition to the accelerated corrosion they will most likely endure.

 

The Victron Energy document, also published on the same web page, notes,

"batteries with a high antimony content will need frequent topping up.....

 

 

Note that Varta LFD/Bosch L5 Powerframe batteries do not suffer the phenomenon above, as they are low Antimony technology.

But we still wouldn't recommend long term EHU or permanent Solar connection with a Powerframe battery, even with the likes of a Victron Solar regulator with a low 'true maintenance' charge rate.

 

 

 

.

 

Allan, this is really interesting. Since fitting the two LFD90 batteries I have been watching their charge rates in use and when stood on the drive. Normally I do connect the EHU when it is parked on the drive and the battery monitor is showing a steady charge level of 13.4 v. During the (rare) sunny periods the monitor showed them to be at 14.2 v and both lights on the Solar (Duo) regulator were flashing indicating that the solar charge was disconnected. However, lately while the sun is not so bright or even seen, the monitor is not rising above the 13.4v and I had been wondering if my CBE charger was set right? Should it be charging higher than 13.4?

 

From what you have said I am now wondering if leaving it on EHU is at all necessary given there is a 100w solar panel - albeit also parked under a translucent carport. The batteries are under load at the moment as I have left the Truma heater running overnight on very low just to protect from frost in between our last trip and the next.

 

David

[aandncaravan]

Hello David, suggest you read our web page about Long term EHU, link above, and make up your own mind.

But bear in mind it is primarily aimed at vehicles that at idle long term. If you are using the 12v power all the time it does change things.

[david lloyd]

aandncaravan - 2016-11-11 8:53 AM

 

Hello David, suggest you read our web page about Long term EHU, link above, and make up your own mind.

But bear in mind it is primarily aimed at vehicles that at idle long term. If you are using the 12v power all the time it does change things.

 

Thank you Allan, and what do you think about the charging voltages - currently (excuse the pun) the CBE charger takes the batteries up to 13.4v and that seems to be the limit but the solar panel, when operating at full capacity, will charge up to 14.2v - is this normal or should the CBE charger be taking them up higher?

 

I recall, when I had the thread running on my change of batteries, someone questioning whether a 16amp charger would be sufficient for two 90ah batteries?

 

David

[aandncaravan]

Without seeing the setup I could not be certain, but would image the CBE 'knows' the battery is fully charged so supplying just a maintenance charge and that you will most likely 'see' 14v once the Solar panels stop charging and the batteries get used??

 

The Rule of Thumb is that a charger supports a battery bank 10 times it's output converted to Ah, so a 16A charger will cope ok with a 160Ah battery bank.

Your habitation battery bank is 180Ah, so over the theoretical limit, however it is made up of Varta Silver Powerframe batteries which are both more efficient than a conventional battery, and degrade far more slowly as they don't suffer debilitating Corrosion. They are therefore easier to charge with a resultant lighter load on the mains charger (and Alternator).

 

So long as you appreciate that you are near the limit and don't expect the poor CBE to bring up the two habitation batteries from low, you should be ok. Just manage the discharges a bit more diligently than you might normally?

 

 

 

 

 

[dipsticks]

I am finding all this very interesting but also getting a bit confused, David said he has a pair of Varta LFD90 batteries described by Varta as Professional Dual Purpose but Allans last post refers to Silver Powerframe Batteries.

 

Are the Silver Powerframe Batteries the same as those referred to by Varta as Silver Dynamic AGM/Professional Deep Cycle AGM ?

 

I'm finding the Varta website a bit confusing, the Leisure Applications page shows the 'Cycling Ability' and 'Charge Acceptance' of the two different batteries to be vastly different.

 

I would like to know which way to go as surely replacement can't be far away after 9 years of service from my old batteries.

[david lloyd]

Thanks again Allan, I will probably just use the EHU charging at home every few weeks if it has not been used rather than have it permanently charging from now on.

 

Dipsticks - sorry, I can't give you a definitive answer on the nomenclature of the Varta range but I'm sure Allan will be able to tell you the difference if there is any. I know mine are the dual purpose professional range and I think they used to be referred to as 'Powerframe' but that is more of a type description than the product name. There is a specific product code that I used when ordering mine from Tayna and if it helps I will try to find it for you.

 

David

[aandncaravan]

Dipsticks, Powerframe is a patented technology where the Grid is constructed from a special Alloy that is 'Rolled' rather than the usual Pressed or Stamped process. This endows the Grid with a molecular structure that is extremely resistant to Corrosion.

The Powerframe technology also uses a greater proportion of Silver in the Alloy, which further resists corrosion and is an excellent conductor of electricity.

Varta claim up to 70% better electrical conductivity than an Antimony Lead battery.

 

The high silver content and Powerframe technology result in a highly corrosion resistant battery that is more efficient than any other battery in the up to £150/100Ah bracket.

 

The manufacturing process uses 20% less energy, resulting in a battery that is cheaper to produce, therefore less to buy than one might expect for the quality.

 

Powerframe technology is used in most top end Starter and Leisure batteries marketed under the Bosch and Varta brands.

 

The LFD is the Varta Leisure range, like the LFD90 and Bosch has the L range, like the L5.

 

The Varta/Bosch AGM range require special charging characteristics rarely found in Motorhomes, so a specialised mains charger and adapted Alternator are required if you wish to maximise battery life and get them up to full charge.

We have not yet worked on a single Motorhome optimised for AGM batteries, although a Dethleffs we saw in September 2016 was close. We think 2017 Hymers might be the first?

 

We would not recommend you buy AGM, even Bosch/Varta ones, as the much hyped 'durability' isn't being achieved in the Motorhome World.

 

We would suggest you look at the Varta LFD90 as it has the physical characteristics of the Exide G80, so fits most battery spaces. The identical Bosch L5, made on the same production line by Johnson Controls, is slightly dearer but can have a slightly better guarantee.

 

However, note that the warranty, just like most batteries, is against failure from a manufacturing defect.

 

Suggest you think about buying from Battery Mega store as they have a high turnover of batteries so less likely to be sitting on the shelf a long time.

A battery that has been on the shelf a month or three, could have already lost significant life by the time you get it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dipsticks]

Thank you very much for that information Allan and David.

 

The LFD90 is exactly the same size as my existing 957 052 000 batteries so that is handy. I note the LFD90 is maintenance free so I hope these will cope with the rather high charging voltages I see the Morningstar Regulator putting out some days.

 

We rarely use the onboard mains charger a Plug in Systems CTSAN/18 amp model.

 

It will be a treat not having to top up as the batteries are quite difficult to get at in our Transit.

[aandncaravan]

Dipsticks, They are perfect for installation under a Transits Drivers and passenger seat for both the Starter battery and the Habitation battery because they don't need topping up.

 

If the battery is used as designed there should be zero fluid loss.

The high silver content and the Patented Grid mean that it just doesn't gas, even at higher than average temperatures.

But if it did ever 'gas', it has technology inside the lid that returns the fluid back to the cells.

 

The term 'Maintenance free' has been misused over the past few years to describe batteries that are actually 'Low maintenance', some even high maintenance, so in order to distance themselves from this, Bosch/Varta claim that their battery is 'Absolutely' maintenance free.

 

We think they are safer inside a vehicle habitation area than any other battery, even more appropriate than a Gel battery.

Especially since the above report shows that Gel batteries do Gas, to the point of failing from 'dry out'.

 

 

 

 

 

[dipsticks]

Thank you Allan it all sounds good to me, I will test the old batteries next Spring and decide whether to replace them then or see if another season looks possible. B-)

[aandncaravan]

We get a few emails following up on advice or work. This one, genuinely, arrived today :

 

Allan, many thanks for all the advice. I bought two 90ah Varta's and after a couple of months I am delighted to report all working really well even with the heating on all night, tv, lights etc. even with the lack of sunlight at the moment!

Good news is the old Banners don't seem to have killed the charging systems, despite being almost dry. They took 4 litres of distilled water to refill between the two of them.

So, in short, thanks for your invaluable advice. I'll be recommending you to everyone we meet on the road!

Regards

S. B.

 

 

 

 

[Martyn22]

don't know about Banner but my 2 x Elecso batteries stopped working while away in Spain this year looking at the paperwork they were nearly 9 years old and I had often used my inverter to use the microwave, but they are not made anymore, now I have bought 2 Xplorer 110 AH AGM batteries @ £109.99 each. so if they last as long as the last pair I will be well pleased. bought them from Alpha Batteries Tel: 017060356356 Rochdale

[lennyhb]

Martyn22 - 2016-11-17 2:08 PM

 

don't know about Banner but my 2 x Elecso batteries stopped working while away in Spain this year looking at the paperwork they were nearly 9 years old and I had often used my inverter to use the microwave, but they are not made anymore, now I have bought 2 Xplorer 110 AH AGM batteries @ £109.99 each. so if they last as long as the last pair I will be well pleased. bought them from Alpha Batteries Tel: 017060356356 Rochdale

Does your van's charger have an AGM setting? If not you can kiss them goodbye after about 18 months.

[aandncaravan]

Yesterday we worked on a late 2014 Hymer that came from the Dealer with 3 x Banner AGM's. None of the charging systems (Schaudt EBL 29) were optimised for AGM batteries and the most likely reason they lasted less than 2 years.

The Customers email thread started with -

 

"With the batteries charged fully from the mains, only about 6 hours use available and the full discharge is sudden, i.e. 12.2v to auto switch off in seconds.

If I have 1 or more dud batteries what are the alternatives and can you do the whole thing at one of the sites in Wales?".

 

We found the AGM's were all well past it.

 

 

 

 

 

[aandncaravan]

And another email just arrived, literally just now.

I am publishing these to show just how common this is.

 

"I have a panel van conversion which I bought new in Sept. 2014. It has a 100 watt solar panel and two 110 Ah Banner batteries. After one year, the batteries failed and were replaced under warranty as I was told when I bought the van that they were maintenance free. At the same time, I was told to inspect the new batteries once or twice a year to make sure the electrolyte was adequate, and in the past year checked about every two months or so. The electrolyte was always very low, and in the last check, one of the batteries was dry. Since then, the batteries will not hold a charge, and, since I am now out of warranty, I need to buy two new batteries.

I have no idea what is causing the rapid drying-out and subsequent failure of the batteries : that is, whether it is something to do with the charger, the solar controller or just my incompetence at maintaining the batteries.

I would like my van to be looked at by someone with the necessary expertise who would replace any defective or deficient equipment and wonder if you would be prepared to do the job.

A W".

 

 

What is different about this one, is the reluctance to believe the battery can be so rubbish in real world use. Can you read in the text how the owner is loathe to blame the batteries, but himself?

 

Clearly poor advice from the PVC saying the batteries were maintenance free.

But to then advise that the second set would only need checking every six months shows they just haven't a clue about the batteries they are selling or the way the charging kit will treat them.

 

Just as Alpha batteries don't seem to either, by selling to customer after customer, AGM batteries that are unfit for purpose in almost every Motorhome out there?

 

 

We will book the customer in for a check, but I am willing to bet 1p that there will be no technical issue, just that the Banner Wet battery is less tolerant of a permanent Solar charge than most. Possibly.

 

Be interesting to see what voltage the Solar regulator charges at, both proper 'Charging' and 'Float'?

 

 

 

[lennyhb]

aandncaravan - 2016-11-17 6:54 PM

 

Yesterday we worked on a late 2014 Hymer that came from the Dealer with 3 x Banner AGM's. None of the charging systems (Schaudt EBL 29) were optimised for AGM batteries and the most likely reason they lasted less than 2 years.

The Customers email thread started with -

 

"With the batteries charged fully from the mains, only about 6 hours use available and the full discharge is sudden, i.e. 12.2v to auto switch off in seconds.

If I have 1 or more dud batteries what are the alternatives and can you do the whole thing at one of the sites in Wales?".

 

We found the AGM's were all well past it.

Biggest cock up the Hymer group has made fitting AGM's without a proper charger. Even though the Elektroblocks now have an AGM setting we are still seeing reports on German forums of AGM's failing.

I suspect Hymer are not that concerned as the amount of failures is low compared to the number of vans sold as a majority will we using EHU which will masks a duff battery. It's us poor sods who use a Motorhome as there were originally intended that suffer.

[fjmike]

And caravan Thank you very much for all your guidance. Worrying that I had two Banner energy batterys which have not been looked at since I installed them I went out today to check the levels on both them and the engine battery. Started with the Varta engine battery that has been in since the van was new (2007) and all cells were fine, well flooded and a good reading on hygroscope (thing that samples the battery fluid). However it was a completely different story when I checked the Banners, all cells on both batterys taking about 80ml of dionised water. I realise that some damage will have occurred but will the batterys be OK now that I have topped them up.I would be grateful for your input.

[aandncaravan]

I can't advise as no way anyone would know what state they are in.

I think you know what I would do?

 

 

 

[fjmike]

aandncaravan - 2016-11-19 2:57 PM

 

I can't advise as no way anyone would know what state they are in.

I think you know what I would do?

 

 

Thanks and sorry for getting your name wrong, flipping spell checker

[Derek Uzzell]

fjmike

 

As a precautionary measure I replaced the “Motorcraft”-badged starter-battery factory-fitted by Ford to my 2005 Transit-based Hobby motorhome not long before I sold the vehicle in 2014. The battery’s electrolyte-level never needed topping up and it now sits on my garage floor. I charge it up every now and again and it still charges rapidly and will happily start a car or power my high-drain 12V tyre pump.

 

Banner “Energy Bull” batteries do need their electrolyte-level checked regularly and I’ve topped up the one in my Rapido several times since I bought the motorhome in April 2015.

 

You haven’t said when you installed your Banner batteries, but it’s likely to be a while ago if you needed to put 80cc of water in each cell. As long as the electrolyte-level did not drop below the top of the batteries’ plates you may have got away with it, and if there were no symptoms of impending failure before you checked the Banners, topping them up may allow them to continue to perform adequately. Realistically though, all you can do is recharge the Banners, take hydrometer readings, perhaps do some ‘endurance testing’ by placing a known load on the batteries, and see how they react.

[Guest pelmetman]

Do people still buy batteries that need topping up? 8-) ........

 

 

 

 

[david lloyd]

pelmetman - 2016-11-19 6:32 PM

 

Do people still buy batteries that need topping up? 8-) ........

 

 

 

 

Yes - sometimes without realising it. There are some manufacturers that maintain their products are 'maintenance free' or 'low maintenance' (including Banner) so many people believe that. In addition, their are some converters and dealers giving the same or no advice regarding topping up and caring for leisure batteries even to people new to motorhoming.

 

Have tonsil, since posting here earlier this year originally enquiring about fitting a second leisure battery paired to the original Banner I have learned a great deal more than I ever knew about the whole subject of leisure battery maintenance, types and charging.

 

As a consequence, I now have two Varta LFD90 batteries that are truly maintenance free, should outperform many other similarly priced (and higher priced) batteries and, critically, are both vented to the outside as they are located under the cab seats.

 

David

[Guest pelmetman]

david lloyd - 2016-11-19 7:57 PM

 

As a consequence, I now have two Varta LFD90 batteries that are truly maintenance free, should outperform many other similarly priced (and higher priced) batteries and, critically, are both vented to the outside as they are located under the cab seats.

 

David

 

Yep me to......delivered for £137.90 the pair.....bargain as the two batteries they replaced were getting on in years, the Elecsol leisure battery was knackered barely lasting a night without EHU, the Varta starter was still OK B-) .......

 

But as Horace is currently our permanent home of no fixed abode I splashed the cash :D .....

 

Been topping up all our gadgets via the inverter without problem and running TV etc on our trip down through France without any hookup.......but that said I suspect our camper is probably not as power hungry as modern Moho's ;-) ........

 

 

[Countryboy33]

I have a 2006 Autosleeper Duetto which I purchased almost new. It was fitted with a Ford battery

and a Varta leisure battery. The vehicle has been used regularly all over Europe. This year I had to renew both batteries. Not bad 10 years service. Needless to say I replaced with similar batteries.

Excellent service from Tanya for the leisure battery, next day delivery.