Banner batteries again

[lennyhb]

Derek Uzzell - 2016-11-23 9:41 AM

 

Banner’s advice regarding charging their “Running Bull” AGM batteries is

 

"Only use voltage-regulated chargers with an IU-characteristic and the AGM/GEL charging programme.”

 

As has been repeatedly said here in the past, the battery-chargers fitted to motorhomes were (until quite recently) not optimised for AGM batteries.

 

I’ve no idea if the Schaudt ‘non-AGM’ chargers fitted by Hymer (and plenty of other motorhome converters) were actually destructive to Banner AGM batteries when the charger’s gel setting was chosen, but if that were so I would have thought AGM batteries from other manufacturers would have been similarly affected.

 

If Hymer chose to combine ‘unsuitable’ Schaudt equipment with AGM leisure-batteries and standardised on Banner batteries, is it Banner’s fault or Schaudt’s or Hymer’s if the batteries start to fail prematurely?

 

 

Both Schaudt & Banner confirmed the Gel regime was correct for the Banner AGM batteries I have emails from both of them.

When they fail they won't honor the warranty, Hymer say they will only change the batteries if Banner accept the return. The only test both Banner and Hymer accept is the CCA starter battery test which is meaningless for a leisure battery, both mine passed that but were only good for 10A/H.

 

When the batteries fail and have been charged according to their recommendations and then they refuse to accept a warranty claim, in my opinion they are a sh*t company best steered clear of.

[Derek Uzzell]

lennyhb

 

What does the dealership you bought your Hymer from say?

[lennyhb]

Derek Uzzell - 2016-11-24 6:42 PM

 

lennyhb

 

What does the dealership you bought your Hymer from say?

They would have probably changed they as a good will jester I know Premier do it for their customers. I didn't think it was worth a trip back to Belgium to get more of the same batteries so I brought a couple of Gel's.

 

I have arranged with my dealer to swap my Gel's to the new van, no way would i have AGM's in a Motorhome again, they were designed for cars with stop start not for leisure use. The one in my car is fine.

 

[aandncaravan]

Just found the post from last year where it was first shown Banner Energy Bulls were high fluid loss.

 

Steve928, you write :

 

"Bailey, who fit uniquely Banner Energy Bull leisure batteries, declare it '100% maintenance free'...... One year on the fluid level looks fine viewed through the translucent casing but I tried to remove the caps anyway, however my usual one pence piece in an adjustable spanner isn't man enough and they wouldn't budge despite giving off a loud crack. I'll need to fabricate a special tool to get any further".

 

A few days later you post :

 

"By the way I did eventually gets the caps off and it took 400ml of fluid to bring the levels back up to their marks. This battery has been used primarily as a reserve and has never been subjected to either deep discharge or prolonged charging, so I think the myth that they might be maintenance free has been firmly dispelled!".

 

 

 

Your initial visual check through the 'Translucent' casing gave you a false reading.

The Caps proved impossible for you to undo on your first attempt, despite your later comment :

" the batteries are very easily accessed".

 

Your experience was with batteries that had been "very lightly used, one year old Banner Energy Bull" - "used primarily as a reserve".

Nearly half a litre to top up unused batteries, imagine what someone who has used the batteries will see?

 

 

So I think you have answered your own question on checking the electrolyte levels :

 

" - surely not a big ask?"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Steve928]

No disagreement from me that they're not maintenance-free nor that the advice from some suppliers/fitters is or was to the contrary.

 

Regarding then being easily-accessed, my comments were in relation to you mentioning Bailey and to point out that their battery pods allow unfettered access to the batteries in seconds to enable easy checking of electrolyte levels.

 

Yes, the caps as supplied from the factory are initially difficult to unscrew, but once unscrewed for the first time they become very easy - a 2p piece will suffice thereafter. The correct tool can of course be purchased.

 

The initial requirment to add a large quantity of fluid to my battery hasn't been repeated so it appears that the battery may have been low on electrolyte from new. Despite the Banner now being the main battery and being left on float charge for long periods (this past frosty week for example) the levels haven't dropped at all since and I've not needed to any further fluid since my post that you've quoted.

 

My Banner works just fine. I won't be buying another one so that'll remain a single and rather un-useful statistic but does at least put a small obstacle in the way of your quest.

[aandncaravan]

And the reason you misread the levels through the translucent casing?

Exactly as I did when I first examined the ones photographed above in the Murvi? Derek says his are hard to read.

 

Every one seems to acknowledge they are not easy to check, yet even now the suppliers are saying the opposite?

 

You are capable and technically able, used to topping up batteries.

Yet you still found it impossible the first time. Is that a fair experience to impose and then use as an excuse not to refund any money?

 

The majority of Motorhome owners we come across have not checked a battery level for years. Many would not know how to. I don't just mean undoing the tops, I mean how to avoid a battery explosion and Acid burns, etc.

 

Why, now the need has been acknowledged, are they not handing out the specialist Fluid Cap removal tools that every one seems to accept is an essential part of the maintenance process?

Never in my life have I ever had an issue opening a batteries Caps like everyone has with the Banners.

 

Sorry but I don't think the manufacturer/retailers are helping themselves, or the customers, some of whom are a several hundred pounds worse off.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Steve928]

I'm not sure if you're actually asking me questions because you have this habit of putting a question mark at the end of a statement - which doesn't make it a question.

 

However, the reason I couldn't read the levels through the casing is because the battery was recessed into a battery box.

[fjmike]

Checked my Banners at the weekend and they are definitely cream crackered. I will replace them with a couple of Varta LFD90s, my dilemma is that during the winter I have always left an electric heater in the van via hook up, reading AandNcaravans info this can mean the electroblock is giving the new batteries a bit too much charge. This I want to avoid so thought it maybe better to connect the heater via an extension lead. Am I thinking along the right lines or have I got my wires crossed

[Derek Uzzell]

fjmike

 

If you want to use a mains hook-up and run a 230V heater continuously from a socket within your motorhome, but not charge the leisure-batteries continuously, can you not just switch off the battery charger before you begin to run the heater and switch it back on when you want to charge the batteries?

 

I’m not familiar with Schaudt Electroblock equipment, but I could certainly do that with my Rapido’s CBE-made electrical system.

[aandncaravan]

The Schaudt Elecktroblock's from around 2001 have a Kettle socket and plug in the front of the unit. If you pull out the 'Kettle' plug it will disable the charger but still leave 240v in the rest of the vehicle.

 

Using the EBL 99 Ein/Aus front switch won't shutdown the charger, it is active regardless of the switch position.

 

 

[fjmike]

aandncaravan - 2016-11-28 8:14 PM

 

The Schaudt Elecktroblock's from around 2001 have a Kettle socket and plug in the front of the unit. If you pull out the 'Kettle' plug it will disable the charger but still leave 240v in the rest of the vehicle.

 

Using the EBL 99 Ein/Aus front switch won't shutdown the charger, it is active regardless of the switch position.

 

Thank you for that info, saves having to find a way into the van with an extension lead

[aandncaravan]

If

[aandncaravan]

Starting writing the above when my 5 year old woke up from a Nightmare, by the time I got back to the post, it was time expired so couldn't edit. I was about to write :

 

If you find yourself removing the Kettle lead on a regular basis, we have made up an adapter before now with a Kettle Lead Socket one end and a Kettle Plug the other and a 13A Spike Surge Adapter in between.

This allows you to easily break the connection and gives an additional 13a power point without putting any strain on the EBL, see photo above.

 

Useful if you need second 13a socket for a Aux charger.

 

The EBL Kettle plug goes in the adapter socket and the Adapter output kettle plug goes into the EBL.

[pepe63xnotuse]

aandncaravan - 2016-11-29 9:45 PM

 

Starting writing the above when my 5 year old woke up from a Nightmare....

 

..this nightmare wouldn't have been about batteries in motorhomes by any chance?.... :-S

 

 

;-)

[aandncaravan]

No that is me that has the nightmares about batteries!!. :-D

 

She had a tooth fall out during the day, had put it under her pillow and was so looking forward to the Tooth Fairy taking it and leaving her some money.

She had a nightmare the Tooth Fairy didn't come.

 

This morning, absolutely delighted that the Tooth Fairy had been and left her some money.

Within 20 minutes she was working another Tooth loose!!!

 

 

Battery issues of one sort or another are responsible for almost all the Charger failures we see, hence the passion in trying to change things.

 

As an example, this email arrived the night before last :

 

"Hi, I upgraded my motorhome leisure battery from a single 110ah to 2 x 250ah banner leisure Batteries and I think I've blown the charger! I'm no expert but I'm guessing I'm going to need to upgrade the charger? Problem now is everything seems to be working but the charging light on the zig board stays red indicating no charge going to leisure batteries. I can give you more information if you'd like to ring me. We can also discuss prices and suitable days/times I can bring it to you".

 

That is not the fault of the Batteries, just poor understanding of the load they generate.

However, currently chargers killed by Banner Wet batteries are accounting for about 60% of our work.

 

 

[arthur49]

aandncaravan - 2016-11-30 9:15 AM

 

However, currently chargers killed by Banner Wet batteries are accounting for about 60% of our work.

 

 

I'm not being flippant here Allan, I respect your opinion, but aren't you doing yourself out of a job?

[aandncaravan]

arthur49 - 2016-11-30 10:30 AM

 

aandncaravan - 2016-11-30 9:15 AM

 

However, currently chargers killed by Banner Wet batteries are accounting for about 60% of our work.

 

 

I'm not being flippant here Allan, I respect your opinion, but aren't you doing yourself out of a job?

 

Yes and no.

We are swamped with work and I am trying to do less as have not seen my two little ones enough in the last 5 years. So in that respect yes, deliberately.

 

But that aside, the problem we have is that if we repair a charger and it is then refitted to a Motorhome with a 600Ah battery bank or a pair of worn out Batteries, it will most likely fail again very quickly.

That may then lead to a claim for warranty and accusations we didn't do the job properly.

 

Far better to try and educate at the start, which is what triggered our website and battery pages back in 2011.

 

Ask anybody who has had any work done by us, they will tell you they get the '3rd Degree' over their batteries, not from any sales tactic by us as we don't sell batteries, but because we want the repair to be as reliable as possible so we don't see them again. In a nice way.

 

 

On a slightly different note it has been pointed out that Battery Mega Store have raised their prices, quite a bit, on the Varta LFDxx/Bosch Lx range, so we now suggest that Tayna Batteries is the better option as they have held their prices. The Varta LFD90 is just over £79 : https://www.tayna.co.uk/LFD90-Varta-Professional-DC-Leisure-Battery-930090080-P3638.html

 

.

 

 

 

[aandncaravan]

On page 3 of this thread, 23rd November, we wrote about the Murvi we worked on?

Yesterday, they paid our Invoice, less than 24 hours after it was submitted, way better than the usual 'Warranty experience'.

 

Not dealt with them, or worked on a Murvi MH, before, but I am impressed. A Warranty that really does work for the customer as it should.

 

The build quality of the vehicle was excellent as is, obviously, their service.

 

The Alternator charging of the habitation batteries that we fixed is the only issue the owner had experienced since new.

Again, that is way better than the norm, even better it is British, built in Devon.

 

Credit where it is clearly due to Murvi.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dr Dave]

Just a quick update on the capacity of the banner Flooded battery that has lost much of its capacity after two years of light use.

Having dealt with lead acid batteries quite a lot over the years I was not prepared to accept that such an expensive ‘premium’ battery had failed without a bit of testing.

So as per Banner’s instructions and to discount stratification (Concentration of acid in layers at the bottom of the cells) I charged the battery at 16 Volts for 24 hours this would allow a full charge and the resting voltage was good after a few hours at about 13.5 Volts.

A load of 4 Amps was applied and within two hours the terminal voltage was 12.2 volts not wishing to take the voltage too low the test was terminated at this point and the battery was charged with a multi stage charger for 24 hours although the terminal voltage rose sharply and rapidly during the charging process settling down to trickle charge in about 20 Minutes.

I should say that the battery has not needed topping up regularly apart from one cell that although never dropping below the plates has needed more fluid than the rest so this is probably the faulty cell.

At this point I realised the battery was faulty however just to test the longevity of the battery in real life usage I connected it back to the ‘van and with a terminal voltage of 13.5 Volts with only the control panel switched on I tried a 6 watt led light the terminal voltage started dropping slowly within about 20 mins the terminal voltage was about 12.6 Volts. Then I tried the Erberspatcher Diesel Heater Initially when the fan (approx 2 Amps) started the terminal voltage dropped to about 12.4 Volts then when the glowplug within the heated started to heat up (about 10 to 12 Amps) the terminal voltage dropped within minutes to 12.2 volts and never recovered in fact after one hour of the fan running (about 4 amps) the voltage had dropped below 12 volts and the test was terminated. The terminal voltage of the battery off load recovers to about 12.8 volts but as soon as any load is applied quickly drops.

So after contacting the supplier they said to return the battery (at my expense) and they will replace no question. Which I thought was good service but in reality no courier will transport a 24 Kg lead acid battery so it looks like I will have to take it to the scrap yard or take it myself from Nottinghamshire to Rochdale so beware when buying Banner batteries as experience suggests they do not deserve their premium price tag and especially from an online seller as returns may well be difficult should you experience issues with the battery.

 

[Keithl]

Dr Dave - 2017-01-04 12:38 PM

... a 24 Kg lead acid battery so it looks like I will have to take it to the scrap yard

 

 

Dr Dave,

 

At least get it 'weighed in' for scrap, do not just throw it away.

 

I got 40 p/kg for a scrap battery a few weeks ago so your 24 kg battery should be worth £9.60 by my reckoning!

 

Keith.

 

PS And sorry to hear of your sad loss. One reason why I buy my batteries locally.

[blaven]

I'm reading some very interesting stuff here. I've just ordered on Allan's recommendation to renew/review batteries a new vehicle starter battery to replace an O.E Banner Starting Bull,-(obviously a lead/acid battery) . My van is a 2003 Murvi Morello having covered less than 60K. miles. So the battery was tested and passed fit by Banner in November 2002 according to the sticker. 14 years old and never let me down,-not too shabby in my opinion. For all I know there may be a few years still left in it-I have no way of knowing.

The new battery will be a Varta Silver Dynamic H3. from ABS Stockport. They don't charge carriage which for us here in Highlands and Islands is a major plus.

The van is off the road during the winter months, the batteries are all out and charged monthly with a CTEK. Seems to work.

Next will be two new Varta E44s. Before the end of January,-prices are going up apparently, like most other imported goods!