Is stress good for a battery

[Will86]

Garden flowers often produce a better display if stressed.

 

Does a vehicle battery ... last longer ... work better ... if worked hard ?

 

I use headlights in most dull conditions, even sunlight when passing under trees and especially amongst walking pedestrians.

 

My theory is that a battery is designed to be loaded to its maximum use as often as possible.

 

By using only sidelights, does it really 'save the battery'

 

Will

 

[Keithl]

Will,

 

Interesting theory but my take would be that the only thing you are stressing is the alternator!!!

 

The battery is merely a reserve of power for when the engine is not running. You may see a momentary dip in voltage as you turn on the headlights say, but this is only for as long as the alternator takes to respond and will have little or no effect on the batteries life.

 

Now if you had a Stop/Start system where the engine switched off when at junctions then that is a different story all together!

 

That's my view lets see what others think...

 

Keith.

[Derek Uzzell]

This 5-page article may be worth reading

 

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/under-the-hood/vehicle-maintenance/often-replace-car-battery.htm

[aandncaravan]

I agree with Keith, all that happens is the Alternator picks up the load, this in turn needs more power from the engine so it burns more fuel.

 

Think of your Alternator as a 14.4psi Water tank connected via the same outlet pipe to the 'Starter battery' 12.8psi Water tank.

Where the two tank outlets join imagine there is a common pipe going off to a tap. If someone requires Water, then the only water that can flow to the tap is from the 14.4psi tank because it's 'pressure' is the highest in the pipework. It is actually forcing Water up the 12.8psi tanks outlet pipe "charging" the 12.8psi tank.

 

Some people think that the 12.8psi water tank contributes to 'the supply' and the Alternator then 'tops it up' but, because it is lower pressure, it can't.

 

 

Where volts are concerned the higher the voltage, the greater the potential difference and the greater the 'pressure'. That is why charging takes place much faster on a modern 14.4v charger and pretty poorly on an old fixed 13.5v charger. Especially so now that modern batteries are now pretty much all 13v, not the 12.6v that was the norm 20 years ago when all chargers were 13.5v.

The pressure difference between a 13v battery and a 13.5v charger is so little. Only gentle 'pressure'.

 

Most Starter batteries will last longer the lighter they are used, but regular use, not letting it drop even a quarter of a volt, is important.

8 years life easy on a car?.

 

A habitation battery on the other hand gets a really hard life, taken down to 80% discharged and then force charged back up on a regular basis. They are lucky to last 4 years, more often than not into serious 'capacity decline' well before they actually short out, or however they happen to finally fail.

 

 

I would suggest that using only sidelights, won't save the battery but might save the Alternator, the drive belts and a bit of Fuel?

 

 

The article in the link above saying how batteries will have a shorter life because of all the electrics on todays modern car and should be considered for change every four years sounds like it might be sponsored by Exide?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

The starter-battery originally fitted to my wife’s 2009 Skoda car showed no obvious signs of performance-drop until 2016, despite the vehicle normally being used for short trips.

 

I replaced my 2005 Transit’s original starter-battery after 7 years as a preventive measure, but that battery (which I kept) still accepts and retains charge perfectly well.

 

While an average 4-year lifespan expectation seems a mite pessimistic to me, it may not be so far out.

 

There are plenty of on-line entries relating tp car-battery life expectancy

 

https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q=car+battery+average+life

 

with this one

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/advice/whats-the-average-life-expectancy-of-a-car-battery--and-how-can/

 

suggesting 5 years as a ball-park figure.

[StuartO]

Really modern cars, those built within the last two or three years, use their starter batteries in a very different way that older cars did, when the batteries role was just to start the engine and then get fully recharged as quickly as possible, to be ready for the next time.  The modern car uses the "starter" battery for lots of other things, including powering the lights, including headlights, as soon as the door is unlocked and after leaving and locking the car for a timed period.  The engine stops automatically when the car stops and so the battery has to restart it again.  There are powerful entertainment systems which might be switched on while stationary, engine off, for substantial periods of time.  The starter battery in a modern car gets a lot more discharge than on older designs, a combination of more high current discharges to start the engine more frequently and more and longer lower rate discharges to run lighting and services.  And it needs to accept charges at a much higher rate because modern alternators can and do deliver high charging currents.  In battery terms, modern cars operate in a different world.

 

Which is why completely new battery designs have been developed, to cope with this expanded role.  Unfortunately these new designs probably don't stop starter batteries eventually failing suddenly, at inconventient times.

 

So forecasting the service life of a starter battery is potentially even more of a puzzle than it used to be.  I always though four years was as much as you should expect from a starter battery but my MH's starter battery (which had spent a lot of time on EHU in the garage) lasted eight.  The new types of battery are warranted for five years by Bosch and Varta, so that's got to be a good sign.

 

To answer Will's OP question, all batteries are built to do a finite number of discharge/charge cycles, so in theory the more work of that sort they do, the shorter their working life.  A battery which is effectively jsut stored and kept fully charged for most of the time, like my MH on EHU in the garage, will last longer - but then it won't have done much useful work either, will it?

 

 

 

[Dave C]

Just like to say that the battery on our Peugeot 107 is still the original. The car was bought new on 5 November 2009.

 

The car is always garaged overnight (must help) and for several years was unused for periods of between two and four months when we were out cruising with our (then) narrowboat.

 

 

Dave

 

[aandncaravan]

Stuart, you are of course correct.

Keith mentioned how Stop/Start of Cars places a very different load on Batteries, and I was tempted to respond but thought it was off the topic of Motorhomes. But as you have brought it up......

 

Speaking to a Bosch man the other week (he was 'complaining' we don't mention the Bosch variant of the Varta LFD 90 as much as we did) and he said 'the industry is aware' that AGM stop Start batteries are getting a hard time in modern vehicles, exactly as you say above, and not lasting as expected.

The AGM batteries are being stressed to the point of having very short lives, more often than not with sudden failure.

He wouldn't tell me what 'very short lives' means, but it seems to be 2 years on cars used in Cities. Cars driven in towns are not so stressed as although the engine switches off leaving the battery to pick up the full load with the Alternator, the duration and number of stops is usually far less.

 

He also revealed that they are 'repitching' their 'Wet' Enhanced Flooded batteries (EFB) as full Stop/Start alternatives as they are proving to be more durable, with more warning of failure than AGM batteries.

When Stop/Start took off a few years ago EFB was launched as a heavy duty battery, not 'full' Stop/Start battery, but now it is full Stop/Start equal/superior to AGM in real use.

 

What? AGM batteries not living up to the hype and not as good value as the best Wet batteries?

Where have I heard that before?

 

 

He was very careful what he told me. I used to get to hear all sorts of juicy Tech gossip, but the techies have learnt that I then go and tell the World!!

 

I hate the bit in the conversation where they say, "you can't publish this" as it gets a bit frustrating if it is something everyone should know.

 

He wouldn't confirm (or deny) the reports we have heard from another manufacturers techie of AGM's exploding under car bonnets. Did I say Audi out loud then?

 

He did tell me not to reveal that Johnson Controls, who make the Varta LFD90 and the equivalent Bosch L5 range, might soon have interesting technology developments on the EFB range to give it an even greater advantage (double the cycle life of LFD) AND, because Johnson Controls have sold so many more Habitation batteries than ever before in the UK, this new technology will find it's way onto the Leisure battery range.

Bosch, are apparently already negotiating to have their name on the casing, exactly as they do for the Bosch L range equivalent of the Varta.

 

The new technology is again cheaper to produce, just as the Powerframe technology in the Varta LFD90/Bosch L5 (there you go Danny that's twice I have mentioned Bosch now?) which uses 20% less energy during manufacture than it's rivals, so there is an expectation that although the new EFB battery will outperform the old range by 2:1 it will not cost any more.

Downside is it might take 2 years to get to market?

 

 

My judgement on the Johnson Controls direction to invest in Technology for Leisure batteries (if it's true) is as a direct result of Motorhome owners showing an interest in adopting the advanced technology of the Varta LFD/Bosch L5 range.

By us buying the best of breed, and not the poor old fashioned Asian badged imports, it will give them the confidence to invest in providing us with better habitation batteries, at little more than budget battery price.

Hopefully Hymer will then see the light and start fitting the new EFB instead of AGM?

 

 

Sorry gone off at a tangent here, but basically agreeing with Stuart that Stop/Start in a big City does hammer the battery. The issues with 'ultra tough, long life' AGM batteries, we predicted years ago, are finally being acknowledged. Not just in the Car community, but the industry.

 

That is unless you work in an London Audi Dealership, where no Audi has ever suffered premature AGM battery failure.

 

The good news about the AGM battery fiasco (which remember are £150+ batteries), is that we might see even more durable Wet Lead Acid Motorhome batteries at reasonable cost.

 

 

[Will86]

Thank you for all the interesting comments.

 

My original line "Does a vehicle battery ... last longer ... work better ... if worked hard ? Then the answer appears to be a resounding no, compared to Dave C who says his battery sat unused for long periods.

 

The uses of sidelights when travelling may indeed 'save battery life' which is why so many adopt it.

 

Will

[StuartO]

Will86 - 2017-02-02 1:14 PMThank you for all the interesting comments.My original line "Does a vehicle battery ... last longer ... work better ... if worked hard ? Then the answer appears to be a resounding no, compared to Dave C who says his battery sat unused for long periods.The uses of sidelights when travelling may indeed 'save battery life' which is why so many adopt it.Will

 

I don't think it follows that driving on sidelights is a good idea!  Any saving, whether in fuel or extended battery life from doing that will be negligible.

 

Modern Daylight Running Lights are much brighter and more conspicuous than sidelights and they serve well when headlights are not required.  But in any circumstances in which light levels are reduced or visibility is otherwise impaired, than headlights are necessary to optimise conspicuity.

 

If you have an older vehicle (which has no DLRs fitted) then because of the prevalence of traffic with DLRs these days, I would suggest that putting you headlights on far more often that we used to do is a good idea. 

 

Driving on sidelights when other vehicles around you are using their headlights is dangerous and silly.

 

[John52]

Derek Uzzell - 2017-02-02 9:05 AM

I replaced my 2005 Transit’s original starter-battery after 7 years as a preventive measure, but that battery (which I kept) still accepts and retains charge perfectly well.

 

Yes but whats its capacity?

I stopped using my original starter battery after 7 years and put it to one side to take to the scrapyard. (I had been using it some of the time as a leisure battery) A year later I was amazed to find it was still showing 12 volts. So I fully charged it and connected a headlamp bulb to test the capacity. This 95ah battery only produced about 30ah.

 

[John52]

Will86 - 2017-02-02 1:14 PM

 

The uses of sidelights when travelling may indeed 'save battery life' which is why so many adopt it.

 

Will

 

Sorry but I can't see how using the sidelights when travelling may save battery life.

[EMS]

Our Transit 2007 van had to have a new starter battery, it died completely but 9 years seems very good life, though it proved more of a stress for the mechanics! .

The original leisure battery is still gong well, I think it is a gel battery (AGM?) that does not need topping up.

The transit battery was difficult to remove as the seat needs removing, I went to the local Ford main garage but they told the first available booking to change the battery would be in 2 weeks. Unfortunately for them the van would not start and as it was blocking their parking they accepted then to change the battery!

They jump started the van and started to drive it into the building but it stalled and I had the site of one mechanic trying to push the van up the slope! No joy as the van weighs about 3tons, then he was joined by four colleagues so they were able to push the van. An odd thing when I read at home the receipt I was given specifically stated that the battery warranted. I returned the next day and obtained a proper receipt.

[Will86]

Will

 

Sorry but I can't see how using the sidelights when travelling may save battery life.

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Neither do I but based on what has been said, a hard life shortens a battery and one that's idle for much of the time last longer.

[aandncaravan]

EMS, I would suggest that while your 9 year old Gel battery might hold a charge, what John52 says about his Starter battery having less than 30% capacity, is likely to apply to a lesser degree to your habitation battery?

At that age it is extremely unlikely to be any where near it's new spec 80Ah capacity, assuming it's the usual original fit Exide G80?

As a guess I would expect from fully charged to 50% discharged at 12.5v to deliver about 20Ah?

 

.

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

John52 - 2017-02-02 4:48 PM

 

Derek Uzzell - 2017-02-02 9:05 AM

I replaced my 2005 Transit’s original starter-battery after 7 years as a preventive measure, but that battery (which I kept) still accepts and retains charge perfectly well.

 

Yes but whats its capacity?

I stopped using my original starter battery after 7 years and put it to one side to take to the scrapyard. (I had been using it some of the time as a leisure battery) A year later I was amazed to find it was still showing 12 volts. So I fully charged it and connected a headlamp bulb to test the capacity. This 95ah battery only produced about 30ah.

 

The battery is the 70Ah Motorcraft “Superstart” non-sealed type that was normally fitted to Transits in 2005.

 

It was still starting my Transit (2.0litre 125PS motor) satisfactorilly when I replaced it in 2012 and it will still jump-start my neighbours’ cars nowadays without showing any obvious signs of strain. I charge the battery irregularly using a CTEK 5A charger and the time needed to reach full charge is never more than a couple of hours.

 

I certainly don’t expect the battery at 12-years-old to have the capability it had when it was new. I’ve never tested its present Ah capacity using a constant load as you’ve described, but as the battery is definitely not ‘dead’ and will still help to start a vehicle in an emergency, why should its Ah capacity concern me?

[John52]

Derek Uzzell - 2017-02-03 8:47 AM

 

John52 - 2017-02-02 4:48 PM

 

Derek Uzzell - 2017-02-02 9:05 AM

I replaced my 2005 Transit’s original starter-battery after 7 years as a preventive measure, but that battery (which I kept) still accepts and retains charge perfectly well.

 

Yes but whats its capacity?

I stopped using my original starter battery after 7 years and put it to one side to take to the scrapyard. (I had been using it some of the time as a leisure battery) A year later I was amazed to find it was still showing 12 volts. So I fully charged it and connected a headlamp bulb to test the capacity. This 95ah battery only produced about 30ah.

 

The battery is the 70Ah Motorcraft “Superstart” non-sealed type that was normally fitted to Transits in 2005.

 

It was still starting my Transit (2.0litre 125PS motor) satisfactorilly when I replaced it in 2012 and it will still jump-start my neighbours’ cars nowadays without showing any obvious signs of strain. I charge the battery irregularly using a CTEK 5A charger and the time needed to reach full charge is never more than a couple of hours.

 

I certainly don’t expect the battery at 12-years-old to have the capability it had when it was new. I’ve never tested its present Ah capacity using a constant load as you’ve described, but as the battery is definitely not ‘dead’ and will still help to start a vehicle in an emergency, why should its Ah capacity concern me?

Well it won't concern you if you are not using it obviously.

I just thought it a matter of interest as to the useful age of batteries working reliably in a vehicle.

I guess that even if it still starts the vehicle in favourable cnditions, it would have lower efficiency leading to greater stress on the alternator and fuel consumption?

I recycle my engine batieries as leisure batteries, and whilst they still do the job, and maintain reasonable voltage when not in use, and would probably give me a jump start in an emergency, I notice when they get older I seem to have to run my engine more often to keep them charged.

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

Long stand still is killing your battery. Load and unload. Like a horse needs every day to move him up temperature. Just charging makes no sense. The same is valid for your motor home as a whole and all components. Including your E-bike. Have a good charger whit you if you are in doubt or you are stand alone in the dark.

[aandncaravan]

A Starter battery that is tired but not actually dead at 12 years, has got to be a record hasn't it?

 

See this email we got this afternoon :

Hello Allan, I wonder if you could help me with advice as to whether or not it would be advisable to change the starter battery on my Burstner Delfin Performance 700 (Renault Master 3 Litre dCi140 05Reg.)

 

Although it has always started first time, even in depths of winter, it is the original factory fitted battery, and as we travel on the continent quite bit ( going again to Spain later this month) it is 12 years old. I have had it tested today by our local battery suppliers and they got these readings after a journey of 17 miles of 12.2v 620CCA, they are saying "It is showing its age"

The battery fitted is 95ah 850 CCA.

What do you think?

 

Thanks, J. B.