Newbie seeking guidance/reassurance please!

[Zafira]

Derek & all

 

You have hit the nail on the head re the "credibility" issue, I don't want to set unwarranted hares running with the dealer if it is not necessary............and once more thank everyone for their input, time and trouble reading this thread :-)

 

It is indeed a Dometic CA360 charger unit (gleaned as Derek suggested through the "grilles" at floor level of driver's seat. (https://www.manualslib.com/download/1036991/Hobby-Siesta.html - cross-checking my hard copy this is the same version)

Voltage readings:

 

Sunday 9/4/17 @ 1700hrs = 12.4 (habitation) / 12.5 (vehicle)

 

Monday 10/4/17 @ 100hrs = 12.3 & 12.5 respectively.

 

The manual shows (and I can see it fitted to the top of the battery) an "Intelligent Battery Sensor". The manual states that serves to predetermine the operating time of the battery based on the actual consumption.

 

Page 94 of the manual describes the charging status info I can see on the TFT panel and the readings just now for the batteries are:-

 

I : -0.2A (habitation) & -1.5A for the vehicle battery

t: 290h (habitation) & 49.3h (vehicle)

 

Page 95 of the manual describes that if a voltage of 10.8 or less is measured for a battery for a duration of at least 3 mins then there will be a warning message on the TFT which has to be acknowledged (and the relevant battery must then be changed).

 

Page 96 then describes a further warning message re: age of battery (i.e. "State of Health"), this warning appears when the original capacity of a battery drops to a value of less than 50%.

 

So my (admittedly naïve!) interpretation is that the battery management system has x2 safety indicators for me to be aware of; again naively probably, there is a warranty with the motorhome, the home is going to see use +++ over the next few months and time will tell if the habitation battery is up to the mark, if not I shall be scrutinising/clarifying what battery the dealer puts in as a replacement.

 

Many thanks to my learned friends once more!

 

Best regards

[Derek Uzzell]

Zafira - 2017-04-10 10:26 AM

 

Page 94 of the manual describes the charging status info I can see on the TFT panel and the readings just now for the batteries are:-

 

I : -0.2A (habitation) & -1.5A for the vehicle battery

t: 290h (habitation) & 49.3h (vehicle)

 

Best regards

 

It’s probable that your Hobby Manual varies from the late-2014 one that’s available on-line and the data on the TFT panel may also differ nowadays.

 

Page 07-10 of the 2014 Manual indicates that (for each battery) the charging voltage, charging/discharging amperage, time to discharge-limit and charging status can be displayed.

 

It would appear from your quoted figures (I’m assuming that your motorhome is NOT on 230V hook-up) that there is a smallish (-0.2A) current drain on the habitation-battery that (unless recharging took place) would ‘flatten’ it in 290 hours. The vehicle (starter) battery appears to be discharging at -1.5A which would deplete that battery’s charge in an estimated 49.3 hours. The -1.5A figure is high and I’m guessing you had something switched on (eg the vehicle’s ignition) when you took the readings.

 

As you are in discussion with the dealer about the roof seals, you might want to mention that there MIGHT also be a battery-related problem - at least then they would be forewarned.

 

Best of luck.

 

Derek

[Brian Kirby]

Zafira - 2017-04-10 10:26 AM.............................So my (admittedly naïve!) interpretation is that the battery management system has x2 safety indicators for me to be aware of; again naively probably, there is a warranty with the motorhome, the home is going to see use +++ over the next few months and time will tell if the habitation battery is up to the mark, if not I shall be scrutinising/clarifying what battery the dealer puts in as a replacement.

 

Many thanks to my learned friends once more!

 

Best regards

However, I think you have sufficient evidence to suggest there is an issue with at least the habitation battery (or the charger settings as it was delivered to you, for example the apparently low charge rate), and possibly with the starter battery. I therefore think it would be wise to contact the dealer and advise them that you have some doubts about the batteries, and why, and that you have sought further general advice as to whether your concerns may be valid, and have been advised, on the basis of your evidence, that they are. I would advise the dealer of your plans for use of the van over the next few weeks, and ask them to advise how they think you should proceed. At least that way they can't subsequently try to make an issue of the fact that you ignored warning signs so share some responsibility for the eventual outcome.

 

I read the electrics section of the owners handbook that Derek linked above, and was struck by the amount of menu based adjustment of the control panel settings that was possible.

 

I have no idea whether the panel was isolated while the van was on display with the dealer, so whether prospective customers may have idly played with it, nor whether an inquisitive sales bod at a show may have done the same, but the complexity of the unit did make me wonder whether critical settings may have been altered unbeknown to the dealer, and whether the dealer has a fully familiar technician who would be able to easily restore the correct settings. I did note that there was no mention of a "reset to default" option in the handbook.

 

For all these reasons I think it would be wisest to advise the dealer there appears to be some problem with the batteries/charger settings, and put him in the driving seat as to what happens next. Were Hobby to reject a warranty claim on the basis that the batteries have been abused in use, or by unauthorised adjustment of the charger, your only recourse will be to the dealer, and the legislation says you should act to mitigate faults as soon as you become aware of them.

[aandncaravan]

Zafira, I include a paste below from an email that arrived at 12:03 today (one of many we get daily) from someone with AGM batteries on a none AGM optimised charger.

 

The post is quite long but it basically says that their AGM batteries have deteriorated to the point where they have then damaged the charger unit.

 

In my opinion, the Schaudt charger is more resilient than your Dometic charger, yet has most likely burnt out, so I would suggest your Dometic is on borrowed time?

 

 

I think the point being made above, is that if you knowingly use the Motorhome with a duff battery, you may be liable for the repair cost?

The Dometic unit is not cheap either, last request we got to repair one, the owner was trying to save the Dealers £800 replacement fee.

The Dometic isn't a unit known for being robust (horrible unit to repair) and I was delighted when Derek initially thought the Waeco might be standard fare now.

 

Email received today :

 

"Hello Andy, I have been given your details by fellow members of the Hymer Club, all of whom tell me that you are the expert.

We bought a two year old Hymer Exsis-t 588 in July last year. It is fitted with:

 

Schaudt Control Panel LT95F

Schaudt Elektroblock EBL29

2 x Banner AGM 92Ah batteries

Solar Panel

Steca Solaris PRS3030 Solar Controller

 

We had used the van for several trips with no problems before setting off for Spain at the beginning of December. On the first night away, on a Caravan Club site, the 240v supply went off. In the course of checking various things, we discovered that although the hook up indicator light on the control panel was unlit, we did in fact have 240v power to the sockets. We assumed the bulb had failed inside the control panel, and carried on regardless.

 

On arriving at our site in Spain, it became apparent that the batteries were not being charged by the hook up. In the morning, having used the Truma heating during the evening and overnight, the battery levels were well down, but during the day, providing we had sunshine, the levels rose again. We read the manual, checked all the fuses, and checked that there was power to the Elektroblock, which there was, so it would seem that the Elektroblock itself has failed.

I wonder if I could make an appointment to bring the van to you".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Zafira]

Thank you one and all! I shall email the dealer but may I ask another favour, i.e. an idea of what the email should include in order to be taken seriously by the dealer. As I say the dealer tells me that a fully charged habitation battery should read between 12 and 14 volts dependent upon the model - on that basis if I present the figures I have posted in this thread then I'm presuming that I'll be met by the dealer with "those readings are satisfactory". So what info should I include/ best way to present the issue in order for notice to be taken, e.g. include the charge/battery health table posted by aandacaravan?

 

Sorry if this request is a bit cheeky ;-)

[Zafira]

Apologies, meant aandcaravan

[aandncaravan]

Zafira, no worries about the name, I answer to anything.

Happy for you to present the charts and also say that

"A and N Caravan Services have been involved and they say .............", etc. or whatever you wish to say that helps.

 

If you get stuck drafting an email, and someone on here (who are better than I at this) doesn't come up with an example, contact us via the website and I will see what we can do.

http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Zafira]

Evening andncaravan

 

Many thanks for your help and also to anyone else who has a view as to what technical stuff to include.

 

For the present I will keep your name (aandncaravan) up my sleeve as if I present a robust and technically sound argument and flutter my nonexistent metaphorical eyelashes at the dealership hopefully they will take me seriously. If they don't then in all likelihood I'll approach you to inspect/furnish me with a report, at my expense. ;-)

 

By the way all the voltage readings have been taken I the same manner, I. E. van unlocked, no alarm set and keys not in the ignition, all lights off.

 

Thanks once again!

 

[Keithl]

Zafira,

 

All you seem to have tried so far is a no load voltage test to ascertain the condition of your batteries.

 

Why not try a true load test?

 

Fully charge your battery(ies) then allow them to stand for a couple of hours. Measure the rest voltage then turn on a known load, eg 60 W of lights equates to 5 A current draw.

 

Now watch the voltage and see how long your battery(ies) last! Count the hours until the voltage falls below your minimum allowable voltage (possibly 12.0 V) and then multiply Amps by Hours to calculate your actual Ah rating.

 

I bet it will be significantly less than the usable portion of 90 Ah you are expecting. (You should never fully discharge a battery).

 

Keith.

[Derek Uzzell]

I’ve now found an on-line English-language Hobby motorhome manual (Version 10/2015) that should exactly match Zafira’s manual.

 

http://tinyurl.com/l9bgaln

 

Two things worth noting

 

- Pages 94-95 - Battery management and system calibration.

 

- Pages 94 and 97 - Setting the battery type.

 

The readout example on Page 97 shows the habitation-battery (Bat 1) setting as “095 Ah AGM” (which would be correct for Zafira’s motorhome, with the vehicle’s starter-battery (Motor) setting being shown as “095 Ah GEL”. It’s unlikely that Zafira’s Hobby has a GEL-type starter-battery, but there seems to be no information in the Manual regarding what the battery-type setting-options are. Clearly AGM and GEL are options, but is there a ‘WET’ option? It’s possible that the GEL option should be chosen when a wet-acid battery is fitted, but who knows?

 

I still cannot find any on-line guidance regarding the functionality of the Dometic CA-360-OE battery-charger, in particular what the dip-switch settings do. The Hobby manual’s battery-charger section starts on Page 120 (there’s a picture of the beneath-cab-seat installation) and on Page 124 it says "PCB switches. The switches must all be in the top position, i.e. all set to “off””. As I can find no further information about the CA-360-OE unit, I’ve no clue as to what results from having all the switches in the “off” position.

 

The Dometic/WAECO nomenclature difference is something of a red herring, as WAECO rebranded as Dometic some while back, and all originally-WAECO products are now branded “Dometic”. I’m assuming that the “OE” in the Dometic CA-360-OE product-reference indicates that the device is supplied as “Original Equipment”. The CA-360-OE charger-unit does not appear in Dometic’s retail catalogue.

 

It’s abundantly clear from the Hobby manual that the electrical system fitted to Zafira’s A55GS is particularly complex, and fully understanding it would be challenging for an experienced motorcaravanner never mind a complete novice.

 

As Brian has said earlier, it would be sensible for Zafira to contact the vending dealership and advise them of her concerns about the state of the batteries. But I don’t believe this issue is going to be addressed satisfactorily by e-mail/telephone communication between Zafira and the dealer.

 

Effective remote medical diagnosis may be practicable when the diagnostician fully understands the problem and the patient can accurately describe the symptoms. That’s not the case here as Zafira has no ‘feel’ for her Hobby’s electrical system and no forum-member (including me) is properly conversant with that system. The motorhome really needs to be inspected by the dealer who also needs to give Zafira a comprehensive lesson about the electrical system.

 

I believe Zafira lives in Scotland, but I’ve no idea where she bought her Hobby from. If visiting the vendor involves a long round-trip I can understand her reluctance to do this. However - unless there’s a forum-member in a position (and with the necessary expertise) to check over Zafira’s Hobby - it’s difficult to see how a visit to the dealership can be avoided.

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

I never go in discussion about motorhome batteries. And their electric circuits. Although i known in detail my electric loops. Just a waste of time . leave this to people who are experienced in this. And drink a cup tea whit some discussion about the brexit :$

[Zafira]

Afternoon all

 

Just to let you know that I have sent a comprehensive factual email to the dealer, advising of battery voltages and their fall, charging history, fact that on mains charge for 24hrs voltage rate during charge doesn't reach anticipated min of 14.2volts, querying potential impact upon ongoing integrity of Dometic charger given frequent charges/hard work it has to undertake in relation to current battery and included link to Exide info on agm battery charge status/battery info. I explained that I'm advising them of this in order to mitigate any issues there may be so that they can advise me.

 

Thanks for everyone's help :-)

 

Best regards

[Zafira]

Dealer says all info re batteries is normal and to keep the motorhome permanently hooked up to the mains, both at home and campsites and that batteries all checked at PDI (PDI failed to clock the liquorice cartwheel lurking on the ledge under the table nor the missing light switch cover in the alcove bed area - my confidence a tad undermined as a result even if that does portray me as anally retentive ;-) )

 

So dealership now aware of "conditions"

[Keithl]

Zafira - 2017-04-11 5:28 PM

 

Dealer says all info re batteries is normal and to keep the motorhome permanently hooked up to the mains, ... and campsites

 

So how would you go on for 3 or 4 days camping WITHOUT hookup? Such as at Warners show next weekend? A good battery should easily survive 3 or 4 days of 'light' use without faltering, would yours? From what you have said I somehow doubt it!

 

Why not try at home, use lights for an hour or so each evening without EHU and see what happens.

 

Keith.

[Zafira]

I'm not at home/with motorhome at present, back late Friday. Over easter weekend my driveway is going to be festively lit up by the lights from the Hobby!

[aandncaravan]

Zafira, Lets hope for you that it looks like Blackpool Illuminations all through the weekend!!! :-D

[Zafira]

Apologies in advance to all visitors to southern Scotland hoping to have witnessed the famed Dark Sky this weekend ;-) - the reappearance of this natural feature is entirely dependent upon the life of my habitation battery ;-)

[Brian Kirby]

Zafira - 2017-04-11 5:28 PM

 

Dealer says all info re batteries is normal and to keep the motorhome permanently hooked up to the mains, both at home and campsites and that batteries all checked at PDI (PDI failed to clock the liquorice cartwheel lurking on the ledge under the table nor the missing light switch cover in the alcove bed area - my confidence a tad undermined as a result even if that does portray me as anally retentive ;-) )

 

So dealership now aware of "conditions"

Don't much like their reply. Doing as they advise you would have no need for a habitation battery at all, as the power pack/charger would be providing all your 12V power via the mains transformer. It would be being used in the same way as a trailer caravan, whereas the habitation battery in a motorhome is intended to provide the vehicle with some degree of endurance "off grid".

 

So, my next suggestion is to see if you can locate Exide's (I think it was said it is an Exide battery?) technical, or customer care, department, and then see if they can offer better advice. Perhaps you could get someone there to give you his/her e-mail address, so that you can copy him/her your email to the dealer, and the dealer's reply. That should enable you to get an authoritative reply from the people who make the battery. Then decide what to do regarding the dealer.

 

Exide may say the same as the dealer, but I somehow suspect they will advise that whoever wrote the dealer's reply doesn't know of what he speaks!

 

By all means try out the van in the meantime, but I'd suggest you avoid using a mains connection while doing so - unless it becomes abundantly clear that the battery is crashing. Just don't let it get too flat of it may cook the charger when you connect. Refer back to the voltage charts posted earlier, and don't go below 50% discharged. See what others think.

[Derek Uzzell]

Brian Kirby - 2017-04-11 8:42 PM

 

Don't much like their reply. Doing as they advise you would have no need for a habitation battery at all, as the power pack/charger would be providing all your 12V power via the mains transformer. It would be being used in the same way as a trailer caravan, whereas the habitation battery in a motorhome is intended to provide the vehicle with some degree of endurance "off grid”...

 

 

Brian

 

In fact the type of electrical system fitted to a Hobby motorhome has been an optional extra for Hobby caravans, where the expectation is that the user WILL normally connect to a 230V mains power-supply whenever the caravan is not being towed.

 

I do wonder which dealership sold Zafira her motorhome (though the fact it was used as a demonstrator suggests the dealership does sell motorhomes) but it’s very plain that the advice given her is a brush-off.

 

Keith’s suggestion to leave the habitation-lights on while the motorhome is not connected to a EHU (230V Electric Hook Up mains-supply) may not be productive as the A55GS’s interior lights are (I believe) all LED-type and should cause only a minimal current discharge.

 

To test whether or not the habitation-battery is failing, a more ‘brutal’ and conclusive experiment would involve not having the motorhome on EHU and then switching on the Truma Combi heater with the heater’s room-temperature setting at maximum. Letting the heater running (say) all night (leave windows and roof-lights open!) and then checking the habitation-battery’s voltage should provide a good indication of the battery’s condition.

 

Although Zafira was right to contact the dealership about this, the dealer’s response provides no confidence that they a) understand the Hobby’s electrical system, nor b) appreciate how people use motorhomes.

 

The habitation-battery readings that Zafira took where the votage dropped from 12.4V to 12.2V over 2 days give real cause for concern that the battery cannot hold charge, but the dealership appears to be oblivious to this. However, I’ve no idea if the Hobby’s electrical system and/or the diagnostic readouts have been correctly set up for the battery types it has, and I note that the vehicle has an alarm system to further complicate matters.

 

As you suggest, I believe Zafira is just going to have to see what happens when the motorhome is used ’normally’ (ie. when it is not continuously on EHU) and, if the habitation-battery proves unable to hold charge, make strenuous efforts for it to be replaced under warranty.

 

(And, having mentioned the warranty, it would be worth Zafira confirming when the Fiat and Hobby warranties expire, when and what ‘servicing’ should be carried out to maintain those warranties, and whether the mandatory Hobby annual damp-check has been done.)

[Zafira]

Just had very helpful conversation with Exide technical; am emailing them later as they are happy to confirm detail by return and they will provide detail of where I can take battery for testing. Exide say battery not fit for purpose.

[aandncaravan]

Zafira, we picked up there was a battery issue right at the start of the tread just from your comment on the Charger Fan going into 'overdrive' when it should not have needed to.

Your Dealer was not able to come to the same conclusion as Exide even when presented with a lot more information on voltages, etc.

 

I therefore think that you should give Derek's comments in the last post about Warranty lifetime and viability, some serious thought? Getting the answers in writing, maybe?

 

Might it also be worthwhile, making a bigger issue of this with the Dealer than it actually is, to find out exactly how good the warranty is, to help provide information for the future?

 

 

 

May I say that in many ways you have been lucky, because I suspect that through out this thread you have not only learnt you have a lot of friends you didn't realise were there, but in terms of a Motorhomes Battery it has been one heck of a learning curve.

 

I would suggest from Dereks' incredibly informative replies, along with those from Brian, Keith, Robbo, etc that you know more about the importance of the habitation battery, and it's use, than many who have been Motorhoming for years!!!

 

*-)

 

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

aandncaravan - 2017-04-13 10:56 AM

 

Zafira, we picked up there was a battery issue right at the start of the tread just from your comment on the Charger Fan going into 'overdrive' when it should not have needed to...

 

 

My understanding of Zafira’s original posting is that she connected her Hobby motorhome to an EHU, heard the charging-unit’s fan start running, became alarmed by this noise and, having read her Hobby Owner Manual (Well done incidentally!) rapidly switched off the fan using the option available on the vehicle’s TFT control-panel.

 

The assumption was then made that the fan beginning to run was somehow ‘abnormal’ - in fact I believe it’s exactly what one might expect - and that this factor was indicative of a habitation-battery problem.

 

I used to provide IT-system support and 'cascaded assumptions’ were commonplace and regularly based on a dubious initial premise. A house-call often avoided an inordinate amount of remote diagnostic time being consumed when it rapidly became evident that the technical experience of the person with the problem was limited.

 

If I had bought Zafira’s motorhome, very early on I would have wanted to check the positions of the battery-charger unit’s dip-switches and, if that meant removing the cab-seat, so be it. I would have experimented with the readout options available on the TFT control-panel and confirmed (by using my own multimeter) that the readouts could be relied upon. The AGM habitation-battery cannot be maintained, but I would also have checked the electrolyte-level of the vehicle’s starter-battery. Those actions should have given a reasonable basis for deciding if the condition of either battery was questionable and, if it looked like there might be a problem, I would explored further following the procedures suggested above.

 

But I’m not a novice motorcaravanner and I would be prepared to say “That’s codswallop!” if a motorhome dealer told me what Zafira has been told.

 

I don’t know where this is going to go unless the dealership that sold the Hobby to Zafira can be convinced that checking over the motorhome’s electrical system is required and/or in their best interests. As I’ve said before, this would almost certainly involve Zafira visiting the dealership and for the motorhome being there for sufficient time for useful tests to be made.

 

Even if Exide furnishes Zafira with details of places where the habitation-battery can be tested, that testing would require the cab-seat above it being removed and (probably) the battery being disconnected, which (quite likely) would result in current system-settings being lost.

 

And what tests would be performed? This Exide product is an AGM start-stop battery and (as has been mentioned elsewhere on this forum regarding Banner AGM batteries factory-fitted to Hymer motorhomes) the battery might pass a basic ‘drop test’, but still be unsuitable for deep-discharge tasks. And even if Exide opines that the habitation-battery is somewhat below-par, would the dealership accept this and agree to provide a replacement?

 

 

[aandncaravan]

Derek, My Father often used the term 'Codswallop' so I came to understand it meant 'nonsense', but didn't actually know the meaning or from where it came.

 

Your use of the term above struck me that younger readers may not have even heard it before, so just taken a Google. One response says :

 

"The story goes that a man by the name of Hiram Codd patented a bottle for fizzy drinks with a marble in the neck, which kept the bottle shut by pressure of the gas until it was pressed inwards. Wallop was a slang term for beer, and Codd's wallop came to be used by beer drinkers as a derogatory term for weak or gassy beer, or for soft drinks".

 

 

Nice to hear it used again, I think I will teach it to my little ones.

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

The etymology of “codswallop” is discussed here

 

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/codswallop

 

I used the word to avoid giving offence to the delicate ears of more genteel forum-members. The reality is that I would have said “That’s total b*******!"

[aandncaravan]

I think many would be tempted to give your second response to this Dealers reply.

:-D