Guest pelmetman Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 Violet1956 - 2017-06-05 2:12 PM I didn't say that Dave. We were discussing the type of home grown terrorists that likes of ISIS manipulate to do their dirty work for them. Islam itself is the problem *-) ........ Fundamentalists and moderates are just two heads of the same Islamic snake, they intend to foist their stone age religion on us one way or another :-| ....... Making up excuses why they become terrorists is pointless ;-) ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 John52 - 2017-06-05 8:44 AM .. but how can you have tougher penalties for suicide bombers? Feed their remains to pigs >:-) ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nowtelse2do Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 pelmetman - 2017-06-05 4:06 PM Violet1956 - 2017-06-05 2:12 PM I didn't say that Dave. We were discussing the type of home grown terrorists that likes of ISIS manipulate to do their dirty work for them. Islam itself is the problem *-) ........ Fundamentalists and moderates are just two heads of the same Islamic snake, they intend to foist their stone age religion on us one way or another :-| ....... Making up excuses why they become terrorists is pointless ;-) ....... They've got big guns and knives so that they can inflict as much pain as possible on thoes that can't fight back. Letts just remember that they came into being because of Assad and not America or us. Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 Violet1956 - 2017-06-05 3:36 PM antony1969 - 2017-06-05 3:19 PM Violet1956 - 2017-06-05 2:40 PM antony1969 - 2017-06-05 2:22 PM pelmetman - 2017-06-05 1:32 PM John52 - 2017-06-05 1:10 PM Violet1956 - 2017-06-05 11:53 AM John52 - 2017-06-05 11:17 AM My feling is that nobody really knows anything about God. .So I haven't bothered studying religion beyond what was forced into me at School. So thanks for the replies, I feel I am beginning to learn something. Its just a shame that anyone who suggests trying to understand these lunatics, or even point out the simple fact it wasn't just women and children they attacked, is likely to be labelled a sympathiser. Gaining an understanding of these lunatics is not a simple matter. I found this wiki article which shows just how complicated it is. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_terrorism#Motivations_of_Islamic_terrorism Though impossible to summarise I hazard a guess that our home grown terrorists are often likely to be as described thus in the article- "Two studies of the background of Muslim terrorists in Europe—one of the UK and one of France—found little connection between religious piety and terrorism. According to a "restricted" report of hundreds of case studies by the UK domestic counter-intelligence agency MI5, [f]ar from being religious zealots, a large number of those involved in terrorism do not practise their faith regularly. Many lack religious literacy and could actually be regarded as religious novices. Very few have been brought up in strongly religious households, and there is a higher than average proportion of converts. Some are involved in drug-taking, drinking alcohol and visiting prostitutes. MI5 says there is evidence that a well-established religious identity actually protects against violent radicalisation.[31]? A 2015 "general portrait" by Olivier Roy (see above) of "the conditions and circumstances" under which people living in France become "Islamic radicals" (terrorists or would-be terrorists) found radicalisation was not an "uprising of a Muslim community that is victim to poverty and racism: only young people join, including converts".[32] Or as another observer described it: the large majority of French jihadists are second-generation Muslims who, unlike their parents, speak French, grew up with little to no contact with mosques or Muslim organizations, and before their conversions drank, took drugs, and had girlfriends. They are estranged from their parents and don’t know where to fit in. Or they are recent converts, largely from rural areas and many from divorced families. Why is that, Roy asks? If Islam or social conditions are essentially to blame for breeding terrorism, why do such structural problems affect only this very narrowly defined group? Why does it not attract first- or third-generation French Muslims, or those whose Islamic culture is the deepest? And why does its appeal extend to children of the successful middle class? His answer: jihadism is a nihilistic generational revolt, not a religiously inspired utopianism." Veronica Thanks Veronica Bit complicated for the Daily Mail then. They'll just have to stick to calling them cowards and thinking they can frighten them off. Pity it wasn't Corbyn in power instead of Blair when the Americans wanted to invade Iraq and Afghanistan. Maybe our bombing innocent civilians there makes them feel justified in doing the same thing here. :-( So Isis evolved because of disaffected 2nd generation Muslims in France and the UK? *-) ......... Jeeezus..... the happy clappy people are really desperate to believe anything other than it being to do with Islam :-| ....... You might have thought shouting "This is for Allah" and "This is for my family , this is for Islam" while driving foot long knives into innocent folk would give em a clue as to whats behind it ... Whats so difficult to understand ... Passages from the Quran recited by ISIS on many occasions tell you we are the dirty kuffar and they are the superior ones here to kill or convert ... Don't over think it ... Problem is it will not end and I can see before too long revenge attacks on home soil will start and then the wet left really will have a problem ... 3 more arrested at the weekend in my town in a big anti-terror sting and remember we gave the world the lovely 7/7 bomber Jermaine Lindsay Germaine Lindsay's profile (see below) seems to show him to be the archetypal loser that the mad mullahs are so easily able to manipulate to perform their dirty work. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4762591.stm Veronica In his case as with many you don't go from small time crook to someone happy to blow themselves up with innocent men , women and children without some degree of knowing what your doing and happy to do it ... His wife certainly had a normal upbringing and she's turned out worse than him so "loser" background doesn't cut it for me as an excuse for them ... Its nothing more simpler than wanting to convert or kill those who don't believe I'm not offering excuses for his or his wife's behaviour Antony. "Loser" is just one description of the man but there are far better and much worse descriptions that I'm unable to type without risking a ban. And yes he subscribed to Islamist ideology he's but one example of the what often is the type of person that does. I think we can agree that they are not good people. I'm just not willing to afford them the religious get out of jail card they try to play. Veronica If its not for religious reasons , this one being we are the non-believing dirty kuffars who need converting then what on earth are they doing it for ??? ... It may not be the version of Islam that you would like but as we know the Islamic world and its beliefs come in many different shapes and forms , these fellas follow a certain way but even without terrorism Islam is an insult to the modern world where gender and sexuality among other things shouldn't be questioned ... You as a female should be questioning Islam more than what I do ... No offence hopefully , Antony ... https://twitter.com/PrisonPlanet/status/871744386283053057/photo/1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerC Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 Violet1956 - 2017-06-05 2:12 PM I didn't say that Dave. We were discussing the type of home grown terrorists that likes of ISIS manipulate to do their dirty work for them. From the description given by the MI5 agent, likely to be a pretty good source in my view, they are not likely to be people motivated by any true belief in the need for retribution for our involvement in Iraq or other wars in the Middle East; they are losers in life with no true purpose but to act on an impulse to destroy which they tack on to a religion of which they have a most basic knowledge fed to them by the likes of ISIS. I suggest you read the wiki article in its entirety as there are many other views expressed in it but for me what our MI5 agent had to say from his/her experience of home grown terrorists was likely to be the most informed. VeronicaI appreciate the use of the phrase 'home grown' is bandied about by the press and others however it really is an insult to a nation that is fundamentally Christian. For those who are religious and look upon the title of the Monarch (traditionally but as of 2008 it is Prince Charles) as Defender of the Faith calling these abominations 'home grown' must be quite offended. Looking at the 'reasons' (if anyone other than an Islamist fundamentalist can understand them in any depth) these individuals do what they do it is my contention that no matter where they were born/live they would still be minded to act in this way. Calling them 'home grown' merely serves to sensationalise things more and contributes nothing to the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet1956 Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 antony1969 - 2017-06-05 4:34 PM Violet1956 - 2017-06-05 3:36 PM antony1969 - 2017-06-05 3:19 PM Violet1956 - 2017-06-05 2:40 PM antony1969 - 2017-06-05 2:22 PM pelmetman - 2017-06-05 1:32 PM John52 - 2017-06-05 1:10 PM Violet1956 - 2017-06-05 11:53 AM John52 - 2017-06-05 11:17 AM My feling is that nobody really knows anything about God. .So I haven't bothered studying religion beyond what was forced into me at School. So thanks for the replies, I feel I am beginning to learn something. Its just a shame that anyone who suggests trying to understand these lunatics, or even point out the simple fact it wasn't just women and children they attacked, is likely to be labelled a sympathiser. Gaining an understanding of these lunatics is not a simple matter. I found this wiki article which shows just how complicated it is. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_terrorism#Motivations_of_Islamic_terrorism Though impossible to summarise I hazard a guess that our home grown terrorists are often likely to be as described thus in the article- "Two studies of the background of Muslim terrorists in Europe—one of the UK and one of France—found little connection between religious piety and terrorism. According to a "restricted" report of hundreds of case studies by the UK domestic counter-intelligence agency MI5, [f]ar from being religious zealots, a large number of those involved in terrorism do not practise their faith regularly. Many lack religious literacy and could actually be regarded as religious novices. Very few have been brought up in strongly religious households, and there is a higher than average proportion of converts. Some are involved in drug-taking, drinking alcohol and visiting prostitutes. MI5 says there is evidence that a well-established religious identity actually protects against violent radicalisation.[31]? A 2015 "general portrait" by Olivier Roy (see above) of "the conditions and circumstances" under which people living in France become "Islamic radicals" (terrorists or would-be terrorists) found radicalisation was not an "uprising of a Muslim community that is victim to poverty and racism: only young people join, including converts".[32] Or as another observer described it: the large majority of French jihadists are second-generation Muslims who, unlike their parents, speak French, grew up with little to no contact with mosques or Muslim organizations, and before their conversions drank, took drugs, and had girlfriends. They are estranged from their parents and don’t know where to fit in. Or they are recent converts, largely from rural areas and many from divorced families. Why is that, Roy asks? If Islam or social conditions are essentially to blame for breeding terrorism, why do such structural problems affect only this very narrowly defined group? Why does it not attract first- or third-generation French Muslims, or those whose Islamic culture is the deepest? And why does its appeal extend to children of the successful middle class? His answer: jihadism is a nihilistic generational revolt, not a religiously inspired utopianism." Veronica Thanks Veronica Bit complicated for the Daily Mail then. They'll just have to stick to calling them cowards and thinking they can frighten them off. Pity it wasn't Corbyn in power instead of Blair when the Americans wanted to invade Iraq and Afghanistan. Maybe our bombing innocent civilians there makes them feel justified in doing the same thing here. :-( So Isis evolved because of disaffected 2nd generation Muslims in France and the UK? *-) ......... Jeeezus..... the happy clappy people are really desperate to believe anything other than it being to do with Islam :-| ....... You might have thought shouting "This is for Allah" and "This is for my family , this is for Islam" while driving foot long knives into innocent folk would give em a clue as to whats behind it ... Whats so difficult to understand ... Passages from the Quran recited by ISIS on many occasions tell you we are the dirty kuffar and they are the superior ones here to kill or convert ... Don't over think it ... Problem is it will not end and I can see before too long revenge attacks on home soil will start and then the wet left really will have a problem ... 3 more arrested at the weekend in my town in a big anti-terror sting and remember we gave the world the lovely 7/7 bomber Jermaine Lindsay Germaine Lindsay's profile (see below) seems to show him to be the archetypal loser that the mad mullahs are so easily able to manipulate to perform their dirty work. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4762591.stm Veronica In his case as with many you don't go from small time crook to someone happy to blow themselves up with innocent men , women and children without some degree of knowing what your doing and happy to do it ... His wife certainly had a normal upbringing and she's turned out worse than him so "loser" background doesn't cut it for me as an excuse for them ... Its nothing more simpler than wanting to convert or kill those who don't believe I'm not offering excuses for his or his wife's behaviour Antony. "Loser" is just one description of the man but there are far better and much worse descriptions that I'm unable to type without risking a ban. And yes he subscribed to Islamist ideology he's but one example of the what often is the type of person that does. I think we can agree that they are not good people. I'm just not willing to afford them the religious get out of jail card they try to play. Veronica If its not for religious reasons , this one being we are the non-believing dirty kuffars who need converting then what on earth are they doing it for ??? ... It may not be the version of Islam that you would like but as we know the Islamic world and its beliefs come in many different shapes and forms , these fellas follow a certain way but even without terrorism Islam is an insult to the modern world where gender and sexuality among other things shouldn't be questioned ... You as a female should be questioning Islam more than what I do ... No offence hopefully , Antony It will come as no surprise Antony that I take issue with the way in which women are treated/considered in many religions including the one I was born into. The Muslim women I know are not always happy with their position but it is not a deal breaker as far as following their faith is concerned. That's their choice and not my business. As I've said more than once when you and I discuss these issues. -we Brits pride ourselves on being a country in allowing people to believe what they like. We proscribe certain actions not beliefs under our criminal law and that law applies to everyone regardless of their religion. If we don't continue to hold everyone's right to freedom of thought conscience and religion as a first principle we are no better than the extremists in my view. Veronica Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 Trump blames our gun control laws. http://www.salon.com/2017/06/05/trumps-london-reaction-his-ignorant-and-insulting-gun-control-gambit-marks-a-new-low-point/ http://edition.cnn.com/2017/06/04/politics/donald-trump-guns-london/index.html https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/06/london-bridge/529107/ Not sure how he squares that with his own country's chilling statistics..... 4,061 shot dead 167 children from 0 - 11yrs old shot dead or injured. 827 teenagers shot dead/injured. 90 mass shootings. And that just the first three months of 2017. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 Violet1956 - 2017-06-05 5:12 PM antony1969 - 2017-06-05 4:34 PM Violet1956 - 2017-06-05 3:36 PM antony1969 - 2017-06-05 3:19 PM Violet1956 - 2017-06-05 2:40 PM antony1969 - 2017-06-05 2:22 PM pelmetman - 2017-06-05 1:32 PM John52 - 2017-06-05 1:10 PM Violet1956 - 2017-06-05 11:53 AM John52 - 2017-06-05 11:17 AM My feling is that nobody really knows anything about God. .So I haven't bothered studying religion beyond what was forced into me at School. So thanks for the replies, I feel I am beginning to learn something. Its just a shame that anyone who suggests trying to understand these lunatics, or even point out the simple fact it wasn't just women and children they attacked, is likely to be labelled a sympathiser. Gaining an understanding of these lunatics is not a simple matter. I found this wiki article which shows just how complicated it is. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_terrorism#Motivations_of_Islamic_terrorism Though impossible to summarise I hazard a guess that our home grown terrorists are often likely to be as described thus in the article- "Two studies of the background of Muslim terrorists in Europe—one of the UK and one of France—found little connection between religious piety and terrorism. According to a "restricted" report of hundreds of case studies by the UK domestic counter-intelligence agency MI5, [f]ar from being religious zealots, a large number of those involved in terrorism do not practise their faith regularly. Many lack religious literacy and could actually be regarded as religious novices. Very few have been brought up in strongly religious households, and there is a higher than average proportion of converts. Some are involved in drug-taking, drinking alcohol and visiting prostitutes. MI5 says there is evidence that a well-established religious identity actually protects against violent radicalisation.[31]? A 2015 "general portrait" by Olivier Roy (see above) of "the conditions and circumstances" under which people living in France become "Islamic radicals" (terrorists or would-be terrorists) found radicalisation was not an "uprising of a Muslim community that is victim to poverty and racism: only young people join, including converts".[32] Or as another observer described it: the large majority of French jihadists are second-generation Muslims who, unlike their parents, speak French, grew up with little to no contact with mosques or Muslim organizations, and before their conversions drank, took drugs, and had girlfriends. They are estranged from their parents and don’t know where to fit in. Or they are recent converts, largely from rural areas and many from divorced families. Why is that, Roy asks? If Islam or social conditions are essentially to blame for breeding terrorism, why do such structural problems affect only this very narrowly defined group? Why does it not attract first- or third-generation French Muslims, or those whose Islamic culture is the deepest? And why does its appeal extend to children of the successful middle class? His answer: jihadism is a nihilistic generational revolt, not a religiously inspired utopianism." Veronica Thanks Veronica Bit complicated for the Daily Mail then. They'll just have to stick to calling them cowards and thinking they can frighten them off. Pity it wasn't Corbyn in power instead of Blair when the Americans wanted to invade Iraq and Afghanistan. Maybe our bombing innocent civilians there makes them feel justified in doing the same thing here. :-( So Isis evolved because of disaffected 2nd generation Muslims in France and the UK? *-) ......... Jeeezus..... the happy clappy people are really desperate to believe anything other than it being to do with Islam :-| ....... You might have thought shouting "This is for Allah" and "This is for my family , this is for Islam" while driving foot long knives into innocent folk would give em a clue as to whats behind it ... Whats so difficult to understand ... Passages from the Quran recited by ISIS on many occasions tell you we are the dirty kuffar and they are the superior ones here to kill or convert ... Don't over think it ... Problem is it will not end and I can see before too long revenge attacks on home soil will start and then the wet left really will have a problem ... 3 more arrested at the weekend in my town in a big anti-terror sting and remember we gave the world the lovely 7/7 bomber Jermaine Lindsay Germaine Lindsay's profile (see below) seems to show him to be the archetypal loser that the mad mullahs are so easily able to manipulate to perform their dirty work. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4762591.stm Veronica In his case as with many you don't go from small time crook to someone happy to blow themselves up with innocent men , women and children without some degree of knowing what your doing and happy to do it ... His wife certainly had a normal upbringing and she's turned out worse than him so "loser" background doesn't cut it for me as an excuse for them ... Its nothing more simpler than wanting to convert or kill those who don't believe I'm not offering excuses for his or his wife's behaviour Antony. "Loser" is just one description of the man but there are far better and much worse descriptions that I'm unable to type without risking a ban. And yes he subscribed to Islamist ideology he's but one example of the what often is the type of person that does. I think we can agree that they are not good people. I'm just not willing to afford them the religious get out of jail card they try to play. Veronica If its not for religious reasons , this one being we are the non-believing dirty kuffars who need converting then what on earth are they doing it for ??? ... It may not be the version of Islam that you would like but as we know the Islamic world and its beliefs come in many different shapes and forms , these fellas follow a certain way but even without terrorism Islam is an insult to the modern world where gender and sexuality among other things shouldn't be questioned ... You as a female should be questioning Islam more than what I do ... No offence hopefully , Antony It will come as no surprise Antony that I take issue with the way in which women are treated/considered in many religions including the one I was born into. The Muslim women I know are not always happy with their position but it is not a deal breaker as far as following their faith is concerned. That's their choice and not my business. As I've said more than once when you and I discuss these issues. -we Brits pride ourselves on being a country in allowing people to believe what they like. We proscribe certain actions not beliefs under our criminal law and that law applies to everyone regardless of their religion. If we don't continue to hold everyone's right to freedom of thought conscience and religion as a first principle we are no better than the extremists in my view. Veronica Well no actually Veronica maybe following that religion may well not be their choice and they have no option but to stay within that religion because leaving it is not a viable option because hubby , brothers and their own fathers may well take certain action which may take the form of beatings , rape , acid or even death ... If your happy with forced marriage , honour killings , FGM and other issues then thats fine but I wouldn't see you accepting it if ordinary British males pushed for the same treatment for British women Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 antony1969 - 2017-06-05 2:22 PM pelmetman - 2017-06-05 1:32 PM John52 - 2017-06-05 1:10 PM Violet1956 - 2017-06-05 11:53 AM John52 - 2017-06-05 11:17 AM My feling is that nobody really knows anything about God. .So I haven't bothered studying religion beyond what was forced into me at School. So thanks for the replies, I feel I am beginning to learn something. Its just a shame that anyone who suggests trying to understand these lunatics, or even point out the simple fact it wasn't just women and children they attacked, is likely to be labelled a sympathiser. Gaining an understanding of these lunatics is not a simple matter. I found this wiki article which shows just how complicated it is. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_terrorism#Motivations_of_Islamic_terrorism Though impossible to summarise I hazard a guess that our home grown terrorists are often likely to be as described thus in the article- "Two studies of the background of Muslim terrorists in Europe—one of the UK and one of France—found little connection between religious piety and terrorism. According to a "restricted" report of hundreds of case studies by the UK domestic counter-intelligence agency MI5, [f]ar from being religious zealots, a large number of those involved in terrorism do not practise their faith regularly. Many lack religious literacy and could actually be regarded as religious novices. Very few have been brought up in strongly religious households, and there is a higher than average proportion of converts. Some are involved in drug-taking, drinking alcohol and visiting prostitutes. MI5 says there is evidence that a well-established religious identity actually protects against violent radicalisation.[31]? A 2015 "general portrait" by Olivier Roy (see above) of "the conditions and circumstances" under which people living in France become "Islamic radicals" (terrorists or would-be terrorists) found radicalisation was not an "uprising of a Muslim community that is victim to poverty and racism: only young people join, including converts".[32] Or as another observer described it: the large majority of French jihadists are second-generation Muslims who, unlike their parents, speak French, grew up with little to no contact with mosques or Muslim organizations, and before their conversions drank, took drugs, and had girlfriends. They are estranged from their parents and don’t know where to fit in. Or they are recent converts, largely from rural areas and many from divorced families. Why is that, Roy asks? If Islam or social conditions are essentially to blame for breeding terrorism, why do such structural problems affect only this very narrowly defined group? Why does it not attract first- or third-generation French Muslims, or those whose Islamic culture is the deepest? And why does its appeal extend to children of the successful middle class? His answer: jihadism is a nihilistic generational revolt, not a religiously inspired utopianism." Veronica Thanks Veronica Bit complicated for the Daily Mail then. They'll just have to stick to calling them cowards and thinking they can frighten them off. Pity it wasn't Corbyn in power instead of Blair when the Americans wanted to invade Iraq and Afghanistan. Maybe our bombing innocent civilians there makes them feel justified in doing the same thing here. :-( So Isis evolved because of disaffected 2nd generation Muslims in France and the UK? *-) ......... Jeeezus..... the happy clappy people are really desperate to believe anything other than it being to do with Islam :-| ....... You might have thought shouting "This is for Allah" and "This is for my family , this is for Islam" while driving foot long knives into innocent folk would give em a clue as to whats behind it ... Whats so difficult to understand ... Passages from the Quran recited by ISIS on many occasions tell you we are the dirty kuffar and they are the superior ones here to kill or convert ... Don't over think it ... Problem is it will not end and I can see before too long revenge attacks on home soil will start and then the wet left really will have a problem ... 3 more arrested at the weekend in my town in a big anti-terror sting and remember we gave the world the lovely 7/7 bomber Jermaine Lindsay I hope your wrong about that, so far I have seen quite the opposite. I have been quite impressed by the reaction of the public across all faiths although Im not sure I follow why the "Wet left" really will have a problem if there are revenge attacks. I sincerely hope that does not happen as it plays directly into the hands of these people. They want division, they want us to hate them and to cause hate towards Muslims. The last thing they want is Muslims becoming more moderate in this country. They probably hate the moderate Muslims as much as they hate the white British Christians. We are better than that though aren't we? The government scored an own goal I reckon in depleting the Police force by 19000 over the last few years. People complained in the past that the Muslim communities were not speaking out, well apparently they were and both the Manchester bomber and at least one of the three the other night were reported to the Police on several occasions but still they managed to carry out these attacks. All we can do across all faiths is to try and become as united as possible in outing these people. Sadly it wont go away but we can decrease their chances by giving them nowhere to hide and making sure we have the resources to take them off the streets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 Barryd999 - 2017-06-05 5:34 PM antony1969 - 2017-06-05 2:22 PM pelmetman - 2017-06-05 1:32 PM John52 - 2017-06-05 1:10 PM Violet1956 - 2017-06-05 11:53 AM John52 - 2017-06-05 11:17 AM My feling is that nobody really knows anything about God. .So I haven't bothered studying religion beyond what was forced into me at School. So thanks for the replies, I feel I am beginning to learn something. Its just a shame that anyone who suggests trying to understand these lunatics, or even point out the simple fact it wasn't just women and children they attacked, is likely to be labelled a sympathiser. Gaining an understanding of these lunatics is not a simple matter. I found this wiki article which shows just how complicated it is. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_terrorism#Motivations_of_Islamic_terrorism Though impossible to summarise I hazard a guess that our home grown terrorists are often likely to be as described thus in the article- "Two studies of the background of Muslim terrorists in Europe—one of the UK and one of France—found little connection between religious piety and terrorism. According to a "restricted" report of hundreds of case studies by the UK domestic counter-intelligence agency MI5, [f]ar from being religious zealots, a large number of those involved in terrorism do not practise their faith regularly. Many lack religious literacy and could actually be regarded as religious novices. Very few have been brought up in strongly religious households, and there is a higher than average proportion of converts. Some are involved in drug-taking, drinking alcohol and visiting prostitutes. MI5 says there is evidence that a well-established religious identity actually protects against violent radicalisation.[31]? A 2015 "general portrait" by Olivier Roy (see above) of "the conditions and circumstances" under which people living in France become "Islamic radicals" (terrorists or would-be terrorists) found radicalisation was not an "uprising of a Muslim community that is victim to poverty and racism: only young people join, including converts".[32] Or as another observer described it: the large majority of French jihadists are second-generation Muslims who, unlike their parents, speak French, grew up with little to no contact with mosques or Muslim organizations, and before their conversions drank, took drugs, and had girlfriends. They are estranged from their parents and don’t know where to fit in. Or they are recent converts, largely from rural areas and many from divorced families. Why is that, Roy asks? If Islam or social conditions are essentially to blame for breeding terrorism, why do such structural problems affect only this very narrowly defined group? Why does it not attract first- or third-generation French Muslims, or those whose Islamic culture is the deepest? And why does its appeal extend to children of the successful middle class? His answer: jihadism is a nihilistic generational revolt, not a religiously inspired utopianism." Veronica Thanks Veronica Bit complicated for the Daily Mail then. They'll just have to stick to calling them cowards and thinking they can frighten them off. Pity it wasn't Corbyn in power instead of Blair when the Americans wanted to invade Iraq and Afghanistan. Maybe our bombing innocent civilians there makes them feel justified in doing the same thing here. :-( So Isis evolved because of disaffected 2nd generation Muslims in France and the UK? *-) ......... Jeeezus..... the happy clappy people are really desperate to believe anything other than it being to do with Islam :-| ....... You might have thought shouting "This is for Allah" and "This is for my family , this is for Islam" while driving foot long knives into innocent folk would give em a clue as to whats behind it ... Whats so difficult to understand ... Passages from the Quran recited by ISIS on many occasions tell you we are the dirty kuffar and they are the superior ones here to kill or convert ... Don't over think it ... Problem is it will not end and I can see before too long revenge attacks on home soil will start and then the wet left really will have a problem ... 3 more arrested at the weekend in my town in a big anti-terror sting and remember we gave the world the lovely 7/7 bomber Jermaine Lindsay I hope your wrong about that, so far I have seen quite the opposite. I have been quite impressed by the reaction of the public across all faiths although Im not sure I follow why the "Wet left" really will have a problem if there are revenge attacks. I sincerely hope that does not happen as it plays directly into the hands of these people. They want division, they want us to hate them and to cause hate towards Muslims. The last thing they want is Muslims becoming more moderate in this country. They probably hate the moderate Muslims as much as they hate the white British Christians. We are better than that though aren't we? The government scored an own goal I reckon in depleting the Police force by 19000 over the last few years. People complained in the past that the Muslim communities were not speaking out, well apparently they were and both the Manchester bomber and at least one of the three the other night were reported to the Police on several occasions but still they managed to carry out these attacks. All we can do across all faiths is to try and become as united as possible in outing these people. Sadly it wont go away but we can decrease their chances by giving them nowhere to hide and making sure we have the resources to take them off the streets. Why on earth do they want us to hate them and cause hate towards Muslims ??? Struggling to understand that ... If their aim is converting the kuffar then us hating them aint guna help their cause is it ... If all of a sudden we are going to become united across all faiths then that is something that 70 or 60 years of multiculturalism has failed to do up to press so I suppose every cloud has a silver lining and all that if you believe in fairy tales Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerC Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 Barryd999 - 2017-06-05 5:34 PM I hope your wrong about that, so far I have seen quite the opposite. I have been quite impressed by the reaction of the public across all faiths although Im not sure I follow why the "Wet left" really will have a problem if there are revenge attacks. I sincerely hope that does not happen as it plays directly into the hands of these people. They want division, they want us to hate them and to cause hate towards Muslims. The last thing they want is Muslims becoming more moderate in this country. They probably hate the moderate Muslims as much as they hate the white British Christians. We are better than that though aren't we?The government scored an own goal I reckon in depleting the Police force by 19000 over the last few years. People complained in the past that the Muslim communities were not speaking out, well apparently they were and both the Manchester bomber and at least one of the three the other night were reported to the Police on several occasions but still they managed to carry out these attacks.All we can do across all faiths is to try and become as united as possible in outing these people. Sadly it wont go away but we can decrease their chances by giving them nowhere to hide and making sure we have the resources to take them off the streets. Re the above bold underlined. No "they don't" which is where a lot of people are going wrong. It is a religious (albeit warped, twisted, abused, misrepresented call it what you will)jihad. They don't care if we or anyone else hates them. What drives these maniacs, because that is what they are....maniacal followers of a religion twisted and bent on the destruction of all non believers through either conversion or death. Those extremist fundamentalists couldn't care less whether they are hated or not.....for them it is jihad.....no more no less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 Bulletguy - 2017-06-05 5:17 PM Trump blames our gun control laws. http://www.salon.com/2017/06/05/trumps-london-reaction-his-ignorant-and-insulting-gun-control-gambit-marks-a-new-low-point/ http://edition.cnn.com/2017/06/04/politics/donald-trump-guns-london/index.html https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/06/london-bridge/529107/ Not sure how he squares that with his own country's chilling statistics..... 4,061 shot dead 167 children from 0 - 11yrs old shot dead or injured. 827 teenagers shot dead/injured. 90 mass shootings. And that just the first three months of 2017. I think POTUS Donald Trumps law enforcement officers have been too busy controlling the screaming pussy brigade riots to stop gun crime ... He's been in office 3 or 4 months so blaming him for gun crime is quite childish ... Its like me blaming a man who's been mayor of our capital for the on going terrorist slaughter which he's not stopped ... Mind our mayor does have form when it comes to terrorism with his family links and sharing the stage with those of questionable backgrounds ... Happy Ramadan Mr Sadiq Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 Bulletguy - 2017-06-05 5:17 PM Trump blames our gun control laws. http://www.salon.com/2017/06/05/trumps-london-reaction-his-ignorant-and-insulting-gun-control-gambit-marks-a-new-low-point/ http://edition.cnn.com/2017/06/04/politics/donald-trump-guns-london/index.html https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/06/london-bridge/529107/ Not sure how he squares that with his own country's chilling statistics..... 4,061 shot dead 167 children from 0 - 11yrs old shot dead or injured. 827 teenagers shot dead/injured. 90 mass shootings. And that just the first three months of 2017. USA population 322 million........ UK Muslim population 3 million....... Cant wait until they make up 10% *-) ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teflon2 Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 One of the most frightening lines in my English version of the Quran is. There are no innocent victims for everything is preordained by Allah. How do you cope with that. John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 teflon2 - 2017-06-05 6:48 PM One of the most frightening lines in my English version of the Quran is. There are no innocent victims for everything is preordained by Allah. How do you cope with that. John. Awwww ... But surely thats been lost in translation somewhere ... It couldn't possibly say that ... After all it is the religion of peace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 antony1969 - 2017-06-05 6:54 PM teflon2 - 2017-06-05 6:48 PM One of the most frightening lines in my English version of the Quran is. There are no innocent victims for everything is preordained by Allah. How do you cope with that. John. Awwww ... But surely thats been lost in translation somewhere ... It couldn't possibly say that ... After all it is the religion of peace It only say's that if you "DON'T" read it with PC Happy Clappy blinkers (lol) ...... "According to Islamic laws, non-Muslims in Islamic lands should be subdued and be treated as dhimmis (second class citizens). They should be coerced and intimidated to convert to Islam, through special humiliating taxes like Jizyah imposed on them. Following Prophet Muhammad's example, this has been taking place throughout Islam's history. While Muslims demand for concessions in non-Muslim countries, non-Muslims are systematically persecuted, terrorized and ethnically cleansed from Islamic lands." https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Persecution_of_Non-Muslims Can't wait til they reach 20% *-) ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet1956 Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 antony1969 - 2017-06-05 5:23 PM Violet1956 - 2017-06-05 5:12 PM antony1969 - 2017-06-05 4:34 PM Violet1956 - 2017-06-05 3:36 PM antony1969 - 2017-06-05 3:19 PM Violet1956 - 2017-06-05 2:40 PM antony1969 - 2017-06-05 2:22 PM pelmetman - 2017-06-05 1:32 PM John52 - 2017-06-05 1:10 PM Violet1956 - 2017-06-05 11:53 AM John52 - 2017-06-05 11:17 AM My feling is that nobody really knows anything about God. .So I haven't bothered studying religion beyond what was forced into me at School. So thanks for the replies, I feel I am beginning to learn something. Its just a shame that anyone who suggests trying to understand these lunatics, or even point out the simple fact it wasn't just women and children they attacked, is likely to be labelled a sympathiser. Gaining an understanding of these lunatics is not a simple matter. I found this wiki article which shows just how complicated it is. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_terrorism#Motivations_of_Islamic_terrorism Though impossible to summarise I hazard a guess that our home grown terrorists are often likely to be as described thus in the article- "Two studies of the background of Muslim terrorists in Europe—one of the UK and one of France—found little connection between religious piety and terrorism. According to a "restricted" report of hundreds of case studies by the UK domestic counter-intelligence agency MI5, [f]ar from being religious zealots, a large number of those involved in terrorism do not practise their faith regularly. Many lack religious literacy and could actually be regarded as religious novices. Very few have been brought up in strongly religious households, and there is a higher than average proportion of converts. Some are involved in drug-taking, drinking alcohol and visiting prostitutes. MI5 says there is evidence that a well-established religious identity actually protects against violent radicalisation.[31]? A 2015 "general portrait" by Olivier Roy (see above) of "the conditions and circumstances" under which people living in France become "Islamic radicals" (terrorists or would-be terrorists) found radicalisation was not an "uprising of a Muslim community that is victim to poverty and racism: only young people join, including converts".[32] Or as another observer described it: the large majority of French jihadists are second-generation Muslims who, unlike their parents, speak French, grew up with little to no contact with mosques or Muslim organizations, and before their conversions drank, took drugs, and had girlfriends. They are estranged from their parents and don’t know where to fit in. Or they are recent converts, largely from rural areas and many from divorced families. Why is that, Roy asks? If Islam or social conditions are essentially to blame for breeding terrorism, why do such structural problems affect only this very narrowly defined group? Why does it not attract first- or third-generation French Muslims, or those whose Islamic culture is the deepest? And why does its appeal extend to children of the successful middle class? His answer: jihadism is a nihilistic generational revolt, not a religiously inspired utopianism." Veronica Thanks Veronica Bit complicated for the Daily Mail then. They'll just have to stick to calling them cowards and thinking they can frighten them off. Pity it wasn't Corbyn in power instead of Blair when the Americans wanted to invade Iraq and Afghanistan. Maybe our bombing innocent civilians there makes them feel justified in doing the same thing here. :-( So Isis evolved because of disaffected 2nd generation Muslims in France and the UK? *-) ......... Jeeezus..... the happy clappy people are really desperate to believe anything other than it being to do with Islam :-| ....... You might have thought shouting "This is for Allah" and "This is for my family , this is for Islam" while driving foot long knives into innocent folk would give em a clue as to whats behind it ... Whats so difficult to understand ... Passages from the Quran recited by ISIS on many occasions tell you we are the dirty kuffar and they are the superior ones here to kill or convert ... Don't over think it ... Problem is it will not end and I can see before too long revenge attacks on home soil will start and then the wet left really will have a problem ... 3 more arrested at the weekend in my town in a big anti-terror sting and remember we gave the world the lovely 7/7 bomber Jermaine Lindsay Germaine Lindsay's profile (see below) seems to show him to be the archetypal loser that the mad mullahs are so easily able to manipulate to perform their dirty work. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4762591.stm Veronica In his case as with many you don't go from small time crook to someone happy to blow themselves up with innocent men , women and children without some degree of knowing what your doing and happy to do it ... His wife certainly had a normal upbringing and she's turned out worse than him so "loser" background doesn't cut it for me as an excuse for them ... Its nothing more simpler than wanting to convert or kill those who don't believe I'm not offering excuses for his or his wife's behaviour Antony. "Loser" is just one description of the man but there are far better and much worse descriptions that I'm unable to type without risking a ban. And yes he subscribed to Islamist ideology he's but one example of the what often is the type of person that does. I think we can agree that they are not good people. I'm just not willing to afford them the religious get out of jail card they try to play. Veronica If its not for religious reasons , this one being we are the non-believing dirty kuffars who need converting then what on earth are they doing it for ??? ... It may not be the version of Islam that you would like but as we know the Islamic world and its beliefs come in many different shapes and forms , these fellas follow a certain way but even without terrorism Islam is an insult to the modern world where gender and sexuality among other things shouldn't be questioned ... You as a female should be questioning Islam more than what I do ... No offence hopefully , Antony It will come as no surprise Antony that I take issue with the way in which women are treated/considered in many religions including the one I was born into. The Muslim women I know are not always happy with their position but it is not a deal breaker as far as following their faith is concerned. That's their choice and not my business. As I've said more than once when you and I discuss these issues. -we Brits pride ourselves on being a country in allowing people to believe what they like. We proscribe certain actions not beliefs under our criminal law and that law applies to everyone regardless of their religion. If we don't continue to hold everyone's right to freedom of thought conscience and religion as a first principle we are no better than the extremists in my view. Veronica Well no actually Veronica maybe following that religion may well not be their choice and they have no option but to stay within that religion because leaving it is not a viable option because hubby , brothers and their own fathers may well take certain action which may take the form of beatings , rape , acid or even death ... If your happy with forced marriage , honour killings , FGM and other issues then thats fine but I wouldn't see you accepting it if ordinary British males pushed for the same treatment for British women I think I know them Antony and they have made a free choice. I accept that others haven't got such a free choice and the vile practices you mention are prevalent in some predominantly Muslim countries and that former nationals of those countires have sought to import them to the UK. We need to make concerted efforts to eradicate them, prosecute those who would indulge in them and protect women who are vulnerable. I don't know what more you think we should do without compromising our core values. Veronica Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 Violet1956 - 2017-06-05 7:15 PM antony1969 - 2017-06-05 5:23 PM Violet1956 - 2017-06-05 5:12 PM antony1969 - 2017-06-05 4:34 PM Violet1956 - 2017-06-05 3:36 PM antony1969 - 2017-06-05 3:19 PM Violet1956 - 2017-06-05 2:40 PM antony1969 - 2017-06-05 2:22 PM pelmetman - 2017-06-05 1:32 PM John52 - 2017-06-05 1:10 PM Violet1956 - 2017-06-05 11:53 AM John52 - 2017-06-05 11:17 AM My feling is that nobody really knows anything about God. .So I haven't bothered studying religion beyond what was forced into me at School. So thanks for the replies, I feel I am beginning to learn something. Its just a shame that anyone who suggests trying to understand these lunatics, or even point out the simple fact it wasn't just women and children they attacked, is likely to be labelled a sympathiser. Gaining an understanding of these lunatics is not a simple matter. I found this wiki article which shows just how complicated it is. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_terrorism#Motivations_of_Islamic_terrorism Though impossible to summarise I hazard a guess that our home grown terrorists are often likely to be as described thus in the article- "Two studies of the background of Muslim terrorists in Europe—one of the UK and one of France—found little connection between religious piety and terrorism. According to a "restricted" report of hundreds of case studies by the UK domestic counter-intelligence agency MI5, [f]ar from being religious zealots, a large number of those involved in terrorism do not practise their faith regularly. Many lack religious literacy and could actually be regarded as religious novices. Very few have been brought up in strongly religious households, and there is a higher than average proportion of converts. Some are involved in drug-taking, drinking alcohol and visiting prostitutes. MI5 says there is evidence that a well-established religious identity actually protects against violent radicalisation.[31]? A 2015 "general portrait" by Olivier Roy (see above) of "the conditions and circumstances" under which people living in France become "Islamic radicals" (terrorists or would-be terrorists) found radicalisation was not an "uprising of a Muslim community that is victim to poverty and racism: only young people join, including converts".[32] Or as another observer described it: the large majority of French jihadists are second-generation Muslims who, unlike their parents, speak French, grew up with little to no contact with mosques or Muslim organizations, and before their conversions drank, took drugs, and had girlfriends. They are estranged from their parents and don’t know where to fit in. Or they are recent converts, largely from rural areas and many from divorced families. Why is that, Roy asks? If Islam or social conditions are essentially to blame for breeding terrorism, why do such structural problems affect only this very narrowly defined group? Why does it not attract first- or third-generation French Muslims, or those whose Islamic culture is the deepest? And why does its appeal extend to children of the successful middle class? His answer: jihadism is a nihilistic generational revolt, not a religiously inspired utopianism." Veronica Thanks Veronica Bit complicated for the Daily Mail then. They'll just have to stick to calling them cowards and thinking they can frighten them off. Pity it wasn't Corbyn in power instead of Blair when the Americans wanted to invade Iraq and Afghanistan. Maybe our bombing innocent civilians there makes them feel justified in doing the same thing here. :-( So Isis evolved because of disaffected 2nd generation Muslims in France and the UK? *-) ......... Jeeezus..... the happy clappy people are really desperate to believe anything other than it being to do with Islam :-| ....... You might have thought shouting "This is for Allah" and "This is for my family , this is for Islam" while driving foot long knives into innocent folk would give em a clue as to whats behind it ... Whats so difficult to understand ... Passages from the Quran recited by ISIS on many occasions tell you we are the dirty kuffar and they are the superior ones here to kill or convert ... Don't over think it ... Problem is it will not end and I can see before too long revenge attacks on home soil will start and then the wet left really will have a problem ... 3 more arrested at the weekend in my town in a big anti-terror sting and remember we gave the world the lovely 7/7 bomber Jermaine Lindsay Germaine Lindsay's profile (see below) seems to show him to be the archetypal loser that the mad mullahs are so easily able to manipulate to perform their dirty work. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4762591.stm Veronica In his case as with many you don't go from small time crook to someone happy to blow themselves up with innocent men , women and children without some degree of knowing what your doing and happy to do it ... His wife certainly had a normal upbringing and she's turned out worse than him so "loser" background doesn't cut it for me as an excuse for them ... Its nothing more simpler than wanting to convert or kill those who don't believe I'm not offering excuses for his or his wife's behaviour Antony. "Loser" is just one description of the man but there are far better and much worse descriptions that I'm unable to type without risking a ban. And yes he subscribed to Islamist ideology he's but one example of the what often is the type of person that does. I think we can agree that they are not good people. I'm just not willing to afford them the religious get out of jail card they try to play. Veronica If its not for religious reasons , this one being we are the non-believing dirty kuffars who need converting then what on earth are they doing it for ??? ... It may not be the version of Islam that you would like but as we know the Islamic world and its beliefs come in many different shapes and forms , these fellas follow a certain way but even without terrorism Islam is an insult to the modern world where gender and sexuality among other things shouldn't be questioned ... You as a female should be questioning Islam more than what I do ... No offence hopefully , Antony It will come as no surprise Antony that I take issue with the way in which women are treated/considered in many religions including the one I was born into. The Muslim women I know are not always happy with their position but it is not a deal breaker as far as following their faith is concerned. That's their choice and not my business. As I've said more than once when you and I discuss these issues. -we Brits pride ourselves on being a country in allowing people to believe what they like. We proscribe certain actions not beliefs under our criminal law and that law applies to everyone regardless of their religion. If we don't continue to hold everyone's right to freedom of thought conscience and religion as a first principle we are no better than the extremists in my view. Veronica Well no actually Veronica maybe following that religion may well not be their choice and they have no option but to stay within that religion because leaving it is not a viable option because hubby , brothers and their own fathers may well take certain action which may take the form of beatings , rape , acid or even death ... If your happy with forced marriage , honour killings , FGM and other issues then thats fine but I wouldn't see you accepting it if ordinary British males pushed for the same treatment for British women I think I know them Antony and they have made a free choice. I accept that others haven't got such a free choice and the vile practices you mention are prevalent in some predominantly Muslim countries and that former nationals of those countires have sought to import them to the UK. We need to make concerted efforts to eradicate them, prosecute those who would indulge in them and protect women who are vulnerable. I don't know what more you think we should do without compromising our core values. Veronica Its nice to see that you acknowledge we have a problem here and abroad regarding the treatment of women in the Islamic faith ... Do you believe we also have a problem with the treatment of gays and non-believers here and abroad within that faith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 Seems one of those London Bridge Muslim terrorist types was a refugee from Pakistan along with his parents ... Not been a good couple of weeks for those ship em in refugee loving types has it and its certainly not been a good couple of weeks for those that have lost lives and limbs because of that ship em in policy ... Ah well as long as they feel their doing good thats all that counts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 antony1969 - 2017-06-05 6:02 PM Bulletguy - 2017-06-05 5:17 PM Trump blames our gun control laws. http://www.salon.com/2017/06/05/trumps-london-reaction-his-ignorant-and-insulting-gun-control-gambit-marks-a-new-low-point/ http://edition.cnn.com/2017/06/04/politics/donald-trump-guns-london/index.html https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/06/london-bridge/529107/ Not sure how he squares that with his own country's chilling statistics..... 4,061 shot dead 167 children from 0 - 11yrs old shot dead or injured. 827 teenagers shot dead/injured. 90 mass shootings. And that just the first three months of 2017. I think POTUS Donald Trumps law enforcement officers have been too busy controlling the screaming pussy brigade riots to stop gun crime ... Of course......i forgot, by his own admission he does like pussy grabbing. And gun control is bottom of the list there so stack the stats up and maybe around 15-16,000 shot dead by year end. Business for the gun shops is booming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 Bulletguy - 2017-06-05 7:57 PM antony1969 - 2017-06-05 6:02 PM Bulletguy - 2017-06-05 5:17 PM Trump blames our gun control laws. http://www.salon.com/2017/06/05/trumps-london-reaction-his-ignorant-and-insulting-gun-control-gambit-marks-a-new-low-point/ http://edition.cnn.com/2017/06/04/politics/donald-trump-guns-london/index.html https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/06/london-bridge/529107/ Not sure how he squares that with his own country's chilling statistics..... 4,061 shot dead 167 children from 0 - 11yrs old shot dead or injured. 827 teenagers shot dead/injured. 90 mass shootings. And that just the first three months of 2017. I think POTUS Donald Trumps law enforcement officers have been too busy controlling the screaming pussy brigade riots to stop gun crime ... Of course......i forgot, by his own admission he does like pussy grabbing. And gun control is bottom of the list there so stack the stats up and maybe around 15-16,000 shot dead by year end. Business for the gun shops is booming. Mmmm yes and whatever your point is ... For someone who dislikes going off thread topic like yourself you've sure done one with this ... Then again I see nobody answered your Trump/Gun thread so you were prolly feeling a little insecure ... Enjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet1956 Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 antony1969 - 2017-06-05 7:25 PM Violet1956 - 2017-06-05 7:15 PM antony1969 - 2017-06-05 5:23 PM Violet1956 - 2017-06-05 5:12 PM antony1969 - 2017-06-05 4:34 PM Violet1956 - 2017-06-05 3:36 PM antony1969 - 2017-06-05 3:19 PM Violet1956 - 2017-06-05 2:40 PM antony1969 - 2017-06-05 2:22 PM pelmetman - 2017-06-05 1:32 PM John52 - 2017-06-05 1:10 PM Violet1956 - 2017-06-05 11:53 AM John52 - 2017-06-05 11:17 AM My feling is that nobody really knows anything about God. .So I haven't bothered studying religion beyond what was forced into me at School. So thanks for the replies, I feel I am beginning to learn something. Its just a shame that anyone who suggests trying to understand these lunatics, or even point out the simple fact it wasn't just women and children they attacked, is likely to be labelled a sympathiser. Gaining an understanding of these lunatics is not a simple matter. I found this wiki article which shows just how complicated it is. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_terrorism#Motivations_of_Islamic_terrorism Though impossible to summarise I hazard a guess that our home grown terrorists are often likely to be as described thus in the article- "Two studies of the background of Muslim terrorists in Europe—one of the UK and one of France—found little connection between religious piety and terrorism. According to a "restricted" report of hundreds of case studies by the UK domestic counter-intelligence agency MI5, [f]ar from being religious zealots, a large number of those involved in terrorism do not practise their faith regularly. Many lack religious literacy and could actually be regarded as religious novices. Very few have been brought up in strongly religious households, and there is a higher than average proportion of converts. Some are involved in drug-taking, drinking alcohol and visiting prostitutes. MI5 says there is evidence that a well-established religious identity actually protects against violent radicalisation.[31]? A 2015 "general portrait" by Olivier Roy (see above) of "the conditions and circumstances" under which people living in France become "Islamic radicals" (terrorists or would-be terrorists) found radicalisation was not an "uprising of a Muslim community that is victim to poverty and racism: only young people join, including converts".[32] Or as another observer described it: the large majority of French jihadists are second-generation Muslims who, unlike their parents, speak French, grew up with little to no contact with mosques or Muslim organizations, and before their conversions drank, took drugs, and had girlfriends. They are estranged from their parents and don’t know where to fit in. Or they are recent converts, largely from rural areas and many from divorced families. Why is that, Roy asks? If Islam or social conditions are essentially to blame for breeding terrorism, why do such structural problems affect only this very narrowly defined group? Why does it not attract first- or third-generation French Muslims, or those whose Islamic culture is the deepest? And why does its appeal extend to children of the successful middle class? His answer: jihadism is a nihilistic generational revolt, not a religiously inspired utopianism." Veronica Thanks Veronica Bit complicated for the Daily Mail then. They'll just have to stick to calling them cowards and thinking they can frighten them off. Pity it wasn't Corbyn in power instead of Blair when the Americans wanted to invade Iraq and Afghanistan. Maybe our bombing innocent civilians there makes them feel justified in doing the same thing here. :-( So Isis evolved because of disaffected 2nd generation Muslims in France and the UK? *-) ......... Jeeezus..... the happy clappy people are really desperate to believe anything other than it being to do with Islam :-| ....... You might have thought shouting "This is for Allah" and "This is for my family , this is for Islam" while driving foot long knives into innocent folk would give em a clue as to whats behind it ... Whats so difficult to understand ... Passages from the Quran recited by ISIS on many occasions tell you we are the dirty kuffar and they are the superior ones here to kill or convert ... Don't over think it ... Problem is it will not end and I can see before too long revenge attacks on home soil will start and then the wet left really will have a problem ... 3 more arrested at the weekend in my town in a big anti-terror sting and remember we gave the world the lovely 7/7 bomber Jermaine Lindsay Germaine Lindsay's profile (see below) seems to show him to be the archetypal loser that the mad mullahs are so easily able to manipulate to perform their dirty work. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4762591.stm Veronica In his case as with many you don't go from small time crook to someone happy to blow themselves up with innocent men , women and children without some degree of knowing what your doing and happy to do it ... His wife certainly had a normal upbringing and she's turned out worse than him so "loser" background doesn't cut it for me as an excuse for them ... Its nothing more simpler than wanting to convert or kill those who don't believe I'm not offering excuses for his or his wife's behaviour Antony. "Loser" is just one description of the man but there are far better and much worse descriptions that I'm unable to type without risking a ban. And yes he subscribed to Islamist ideology he's but one example of the what often is the type of person that does. I think we can agree that they are not good people. I'm just not willing to afford them the religious get out of jail card they try to play. Veronica If its not for religious reasons , this one being we are the non-believing dirty kuffars who need converting then what on earth are they doing it for ??? ... It may not be the version of Islam that you would like but as we know the Islamic world and its beliefs come in many different shapes and forms , these fellas follow a certain way but even without terrorism Islam is an insult to the modern world where gender and sexuality among other things shouldn't be questioned ... You as a female should be questioning Islam more than what I do ... No offence hopefully , Antony It will come as no surprise Antony that I take issue with the way in which women are treated/considered in many religions including the one I was born into. The Muslim women I know are not always happy with their position but it is not a deal breaker as far as following their faith is concerned. That's their choice and not my business. As I've said more than once when you and I discuss these issues. -we Brits pride ourselves on being a country in allowing people to believe what they like. We proscribe certain actions not beliefs under our criminal law and that law applies to everyone regardless of their religion. If we don't continue to hold everyone's right to freedom of thought conscience and religion as a first principle we are no better than the extremists in my view. Veronica Well no actually Veronica maybe following that religion may well not be their choice and they have no option but to stay within that religion because leaving it is not a viable option because hubby , brothers and their own fathers may well take certain action which may take the form of beatings , rape , acid or even death ... If your happy with forced marriage , honour killings , FGM and other issues then thats fine but I wouldn't see you accepting it if ordinary British males pushed for the same treatment for British women I think I know them Antony and they have made a free choice. I accept that others haven't got such a free choice and the vile practices you mention are prevalent in some predominantly Muslim countries and that former nationals of those countires have sought to import them to the UK. We need to make concerted efforts to eradicate them, prosecute those who would indulge in them and protect women who are vulnerable. I don't know what more you think we should do without compromising our core values. Veronica Its nice to see that you acknowledge we have a problem here and abroad regarding the treatment of women in the Islamic faith ... Do you believe we also have a problem with the treatment of gays and non-believers here and abroad within that faith Of course I do. If anyone acts against our laws regarding equal treatment or incites hatred and encourages offences against either group then they should feel the full force of the law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet1956 Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 antony1969 - 2017-06-05 7:28 PM Seems one of those London Bridge Muslim terrorist types was a refugee from Pakistan along with his parents ... Not been a good couple of weeks for those ship em in refugee loving types has it and its certainly not been a good couple of weeks for those that have lost lives and limbs because of that ship em in policy ... Ah well as long as they feel their doing good thats all that counts Not aware of any "ship em" in policy Antony where is that to be found? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 Violet1956 - 2017-06-05 9:57 PM antony1969 - 2017-06-05 7:28 PM Seems one of those London Bridge Muslim terrorist types was a refugee from Pakistan along with his parents ... Not been a good couple of weeks for those ship em in refugee loving types has it and its certainly not been a good couple of weeks for those that have lost lives and limbs because of that ship em in policy ... Ah well as long as they feel their doing good thats all that counts Not aware of any "ship em" in policy Antony where is that to be found? Ask Mrs Merkel *-) ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 Seems one of those terrorists was a star of one of those TV shows Barry and Bullet like watching ... Heres our London Mayor defending some nice types before he became your mayor ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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