Brian Kirby Posted January 1, 2018 Author Share Posted January 1, 2018 pagey - 2018-01-01 5:54 PM sod this i will get out and look behind There's a lot to be said for simplicity! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted January 1, 2018 Share Posted January 1, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2018-01-01 6:36 PM Thanks again Robin. I will take the van to a local car radio specialist for them to fit the radio, and am intending to take their advice on what to fit....... ...I fit my own units, but I get that,Brian. It would, however, be worthwhile thinking through the whole problem and putting it to them. A basic CD/DAB radio that doesn't use the steering wheel controls would be a very simple fit, but, since you have them, it would be sensible to fit a unit with an SWC input that interfaces properly. As a byproduct, with the correct (and now required) interface unit, you should then have the opportunity of also providing a behind-radio reversing signal to switch your cameras. No cutting of wires, and no worrying about Canbus :-). A large number of low-to-mid price mainstream radios now have the ability to use the steering wheel controls (with the appropriate interface), you just need to select one that does, and check compatibility with the interface. (The one I've posted works with most Alpine, Clarion, JVC, Kenwood, Sony, Pioneer, etc that have an SWC input). Edited to add: BTW, I doubt that, without an interface module, you would be able to locate an analogue (voltage on) reverse signal from either the SWC or the radio connector. All that will be available is a digital switching signal on the Canbus connectors. A dedicated (OE) radio will interpret this as "reverse selected", the after-market interface units capture the signal and themselves then switch voltage onto the reversing signal wire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 My Hobby motorhome had a fairly basic Ford radio unit. I fitted a reversing-camera system comprising a Waeco dashboard-mounted monitor and Waeco single-lens camera, and chose to have the rear-view image continuously displayed while the vehicle was being driven. I also had a Garmin sat-nav - again dashboard mounted - meaning that there were two ‘screens’ on the dashboard. My current Rapido has a Pioneer double-DIN radio and - although I dislike this unit - it does de-clutter the dashboard and I don’t find having the rear-view camera’s image on the Pioneer’s screen problematical. Thus, as far as displaying a rear-view camera’s image is concerned, there’s something to be said to have the image on the radio unit. However, although it should be practicable with a dedicated reversing-camera monitor to switch automatically between the two images available from a twin-lens camera, I’m doubtful that this can be done AUTOMATICALLY if a radio-unit is used as a monitor. That’s why I think Lennyhb was able to have a ‘look down’ image automatically display on his radio unit when reverse-gear was selected, but needed to select alternative images manually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pagey Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 hi brian on reading all this its obvious this is all above my head so i think i will just mount the screen on the dash and power all of it from the leisure battery and turn it off and on the screen at least i understand this :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 2, 2018 Author Share Posted January 2, 2018 Robinhood - 2018-01-01 7:17 PM........................... since you have them, it would be sensible to fit a unit with an SWC input that interfaces properly. As a byproduct, with the correct (and now required) interface unit, you should then have the opportunity of also providing a behind-radio reversing signal to switch your cameras. No cutting of wires, and no worrying about Canbus :-). A large number of low-to-mid price mainstream radios now have the ability to use the steering wheel controls (with the appropriate interface), you just need to select one that does, and check compatibility with the interface. (The one I've posted works with most Alpine, Clarion, JVC, Kenwood, Sony, Pioneer, etc that have an SWC input). Edited to add: BTW, I doubt that, without an interface module, you would be able to locate an analogue (voltage on) reverse signal from either the SWC or the radio connector. All that will be available is a digital switching signal on the Canbus connectors. A dedicated (OE) radio will interpret this as "reverse selected", the after-market interface units capture the signal and themselves then switch voltage onto the reversing signal wire. OK Robin, and thanks once again. I shall bear in mind your comments when talking to the car radio place. I originally spoke to them about fitting a double DIN unit, using that for the camera monitor. They were fairly confident it could be made to work with a twin camera set up, but I've since decided against the 2xDIN units because they are costly, and do a lot of things I don't want/need. So, I've now got a dash mountable monitor that, after some tests this morning, I now know works and switches automatically between cameras when fed a reverse signal. I also know that the switching signals draws 0.03 mA, which seems hardly likely to upset the CAN bus if I have to revert to plan B. I'll fit, and wire up, the rear view/reversing system and then go down to the radio guys to show them what's involved, and to see what they offer as a suitable radio with compatible SWC input. Looking at the unit you linked, it should be reasonably straightforward to pick up the reversing signal, and I'd imagine there will be other similar input units that will be similarly straightforward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 2, 2018 Author Share Posted January 2, 2018 Derek Uzzell - 2018-01-02 8:58 AM...................................My current Rapido has a Pioneer double-DIN radio and - although I dislike this unit - it does de-clutter the dashboard and I don’t find having the rear-view camera’s image on the Pioneer’s screen problematical. Thus, as far as displaying a rear-view camera’s image is concerned, there’s something to be said to have the image on the radio unit. However, although it should be practicable with a dedicated reversing-camera monitor to switch automatically between the two images available from a twin-lens camera, I’m doubtful that this can be done AUTOMATICALLY if a radio-unit is used as a monitor. That’s why I think Lennyhb was able to have a ‘look down’ image automatically display on his radio unit when reverse-gear was selected, but needed to select alternative images manually. Thank you again, Derek. The wish to de-clutter the dashboard was what led me down the double DIM route in the first place. The only unit that seemed to promote its ability to work with two cameras and accept an auto reversing signal was a Pioneer AVH-Z3000DAB. Your comments on your experience of your Pioneer unit somewhat put me off that, plus a growing suspicion that trying to interface the Dometic twin cameras with the Pioneer head unit might turn out to be something of an experiment - with no satisfactory result guaranteed! Both Pioneer and Dometic assured me that this could be done, but Dometic had no knowledge of which head units would interface with their cameras, and Pioneer only had experience of interfacing their own branded reversing camera with their head unit. So neither was able to advise how it should be done using these specific units. Ho hum - collapse of confidence! Doubtless both cameras and head unit speak similar languages, but whether they speak with sufficiently similar accents/dialects for mutual understanding, remains an unknown! Bit like my Sony recorder and Panasonic TV! :-D Since the 2xDIN Pioneer unit was already expensive (largely because it was packed with facilities for which I had no desire/use), and the experimentation to interface the two cameras seemed to add further to the cost with no guarantee of eventual satisfaction, I opted for more dashboard clutter at lower cost with greater certainty! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deneb Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 I just ordered our van with the UConnect 5.0 radio/nav and reversing camera. It has a poor navigation function as previously discussed in the forum, and I use a separate Garmin satnav for that, but the radio/aux inputs are perfectly fine for me when driving, and I like the convenience of having the built in camera and many of the vehicle settings menus in the same unit. We have a more hi-fidelity arrangement in the lounge area for on-site listening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 The missing link here in my mind is how the Boxstar is originally wired whit that option. Normally a package together with a multi- media unit. A proper Knaus dealer should have it. Important is any pre wiring installed of sufficient lenght.How ever nevertheless you are free to do what ever you want. Take a ORCA unit whit multiple selected views. In case you have no knauss back-up i will try whit my dealer. Just keep going on and never give up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 In case you have to drill holes to pass cable have the right tools. To prevent water ingress at the camera. And use A class cameras. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 2, 2018 Author Share Posted January 2, 2018 pagey - 2018-01-02 11:44 AM hi brian on reading all this its obvious this is all above my head so i think i will just mount the screen on the dash and power all of it from the leisure battery and turn it off and on the screen at least i understand this :-D It will depend what you want Ken. Just a reversing camera, or a rear view camera that switches to a look down view when reversing? I think your van probably won't have radio controls on the steering wheel, so that part of what I've been investigation won't arise. Your van is a coachbuilt, so will have rear light clusters as supplied by Dethleffs/Sunlight, and not Fiat. That should mean that you can wire from the reversing light to the dashboard to provide a reversing signal. I'm using a Waeco/Dometic dashboard mounted monitor with Dometic PVC specific twin rear view/parking cameras. All power for the system is fed to the monitor, which then powers the cameras via the same signal cable as carries the video signals to the monitor. For this, all one has to do is find an ignition switched 12V power source and ground behind the dashboard to feed the monitor, and a second 12V supply switched when in reverse gear (i.e. the reversing light supply). I think your van will have a 12V dashboard power socket plus an adjacent cigarette lighter (possibly a USB charger socket). The 12V power socket (plus the cigarette lighter if fitted) is ignition switched, is fused at 15A, and is not monitored by the CAN bus. It should therefore be possible to cut the + feed and - ground wires behind the socket, and use these to power your rear view/parking system. If you use crimp on end to end connectors for this you can maintain power to the socket as well (it's a useful place to get power for a sat nav). If you want a similar type system, with a permanent rear view in lieu of a rear view mirror, with a switchable look down parking camera that automatically engages when reverse gear is selected, then wiring the reversing signal wire back to the reversing light should be OK - but you'll need to check (or find out) what current is necessary for switching between the cameras. I know the Waeco is 0.03mA, but because our van has radio controls on the steering wheel (a by-product of which is a 12V reversing signal), it seems I won't need to take the signal wire from a rear light. If, however, you want a reversing camera only, that is normally off and only comes on when reversing, it will depend on how that has to be powered (and how much power it requires) as to where you can draw its power from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pagey Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 HI brian your assumptions about my van are correct and thanks for the information as it will help me no end, as i can now provide power from the dashboard socket many thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanb Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2018-01-02 12:38 PM ........So, I've now got a dash mountable monitor that, after some tests this morning, I now know works and switches automatically between cameras when fed a reverse signal. I also know that the switching signals draws 0.03 mA, which seems hardly likely to upset the CAN bus if I have to revert to plan B....... Brian, 0.03mA is 30 micro Amperes. That does seem to be a sensitive input. I doubt that even 0.03A or 30mA would upset the CAN bus, as a single 21W reversing lamp bulb would draw 1,75A at 12V, and 30mA would only be about 1.7% increase. That is less than the probable variation of current between bulbs, or with ststem voltage. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 3, 2018 Author Share Posted January 3, 2018 Alan, I should probably have said that 0.03mA is what I understand the multimeter to have been saying! :-) I hadn't previously used it to measure Amps. It was set to the 0 - 20mA scale, and the reading was 0.03, which I assume translates to 0.03mA? This was with the meter wired in series with the monitor (so the signal current passed through the meter), and with both monitor and cameras powered on. I simulated a reversing signal with a microswitch attached to the same 12V supply as was powering monitor/cameras, and the monitor image changed from rear view to look down view when the microswitch was on, and back to rear view when it was off. So, my assumption was that the test gave a fair representation of the actual current draw under operating conditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2018-01-03 5:40 PM Alan, I should probably have said that 0.03mA is what I understand the multimeter to have been saying! :-) I hadn't previously used it to measure Amps. It was set to the 0 - 20mA scale, and the reading was 0.03, which I assume translates to 0.03mA? This was with the meter wired in series with the monitor (so the signal current passed through the meter), and with both monitor and cameras powered on. And I'm hoping you had moved the red lead from the V/Ohms socket into the mA socket? If not you weren't measuring current but the voltage drop(?) through the meter! Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 3, 2018 Author Share Posted January 3, 2018 Keithl - 2018-01-03 6:32 PM Brian Kirby - 2018-01-03 5:40 PM Alan, I should probably have said that 0.03mA is what I understand the multimeter to have been saying! :-) I hadn't previously used it to measure Amps. It was set to the 0 - 20mA scale, and the reading was 0.03, which I assume translates to 0.03mA? This was with the meter wired in series with the monitor (so the signal current passed through the meter), and with both monitor and cameras powered on. And I'm hoping you had moved the red lead from the V/Ohms socket into the mA socket? If not you weren't measuring current but the voltage drop(?) through the meter! Keith. Thanks Keith. Yep, safely in the mA socket! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 13, 2018 Author Share Posted January 13, 2018 So, a sweep-up/update. Radio installed yesterday, and linked to reversing camera, after a few hiccups. It all went so well at first! :-) First problem: it was discovered that despite its March 2017 date of production (Fiat) the steering wheel controls were not can enabled, and did not generate a reversing signal. Apparently the steering wheel controls were those for the earlier, X250, version and not X290! Fiat just using old stock, it seems, and apparently not that unusual. After a bit of fishing the technician picked up a reversing signal from (I think he said!) the body module. That fixed the automatic reversing function. Second problem: the radio consistently wouldn't shut down completely. It locked when switched off on DAB with a "no antenna" message, although it would continue to operate perfectly on either supply once all connections were disconnected/re-connected. First suspect was a three position switch (on ign., off, on hab.) the German dealer had specified (standard Knaus option) to allow the radio to be operated via ignition when the engine was running, and from the hab. battery otherwise (to avoid timing out). I had previously discovered that this switch had not been wired in, and had picked up a fused habitation battery supply to the appropriate switch terminal. The operation of, and supplies to, the radio vis this switch were checked, and found OK. After a bit of head scratching the technician decided to try a different radio, to eliminate a faulty set. This exhibited the same fault. Bit more head scratching and he decided to swap the aerial amp/splitter to eliminate that. Lo and behold, the fault cleared and was attributed to a not previously experienced amp/splitter fault. So, about a hour later than expected we left with a working radio and a rear view camera that automatically selected reverse view when reverse gear was selected. I'm very glad I'd given the job to experts, as I'd never have been able to diagnose that the steering wheel was not the X290 version, and would probably have fruitlessly blamed the steering wheel control adapter. I'd also have been unable to find, and tap into, the body module can BUS output. Then I wouldn't have had a spare radio to swap in to eliminate a defective set, and I doubt I would ever have lit upon the amp/splitter as a possible source of that fault. Ultimately the X250 steering wheel control was cheaper than the can BUS enabled X290 version, but was traded against the extra hour + taken to clear the radio fault due to the duff amp/splitter. So final cost as originally quoted. Very glad I didn't try to DIY this job! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roger20 Posted April 11, 2018 Share Posted April 11, 2018 Hi Brian Just picking up on this thread because I am about to fit a reversing camera to our new Hymer Exsis t588. I was attracted by the simplicity of Robin's solution not to use a reversing light trigger and read this earlier thread http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Hints-and-Tips/Reversing-light-wire-how-to-find-it-/37519/ which also mentioned a possible delay when manoeuvring back and forth between first and reverse. I wonder how you have found your system works in practice and whether you are still happy to let the camera switching take place automatically? Like you the prospect of diving into Canbus seems a little daunting, perhaps more so because I believe the rear lights on 2018 Hymers are apparently LED. Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted April 11, 2018 Share Posted April 11, 2018 Brian, I missed your response, which has only become apparent once the thread was re-awakened. (I can't even use the excuse that i was in NZ, as it was shortly after this). It seems like I may have caused you some pain (though it also appears that you have ended up with a working splitter (?) and integrated steering controls, albeit after some deliberation. Now, I'm not the 'expert' radio fitter, but I have a slightly different (possible) take on things. The X/290 comes with two different (if only slightly) dash designs. Those delivered with a factory fit radio have a redesigned dash from the X/250, specifically differently shaped (and not only the aperture) to take that (new) factory fit radio. Those without a factory-fit radio (even if they have radio-prep, as yours and mine would do) have the same shaped dash as the late X/250. I suspect the wiring loom exhibits some differences as well. As a result, for the X/290, if you replace the factory-fit radio, you need different parts to those you need if your 'van comes only with radio-prep, and no installed radio. I know this from bitter experience of refuting several dealers who told me I needed the previous model fascia kit, not the post 2014 (ostensibly X/290) one (which is designed for replacing a factory fit X/290 radio). They were right! I am aware of a few people who bought the post-2014 fascia for radio-prep vehicles and had to carry out painful surgery on it to install on a radio on an X/290. Following on from that, I was interested in the Steering Wheel Controls, and the X/290 parts list shows two entirely different part numbers. Whilst I may be wrong, consistent with the above I suspect one set of SWCs was fitted to vehicles with a factory-fit radio (to match its specific characteristics), and a different one (identical to the previous X/250 ones - lining up with the different installed dash and loom) fitted to those vehicles delivered without a radio. Thus, whilst certain X/290 vehicles exhibit similar characteristics as the previous X/250 in this area, I think this is by design (based on the fitting or not of a radio in the factory), and not simply as a result of using up old parts! I suspect that a satisfactory result could have been achieved by using a SWC interface of the correct type (there are a number to choose from, even for a given model year, and selection takes care), and probably one designed originally for a pre-2015 vehicle (i.e. X/250). Whatever, I believe that the SWC even on those earlier vehicles were effectively via the Canbus (and I'm surprised that one couldn't be found that delivered a reversing signal). (As per the latest post, I still quite like my manual switch that eliminates any switching delays whilst "shuffling") Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deneb Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 This is pretty much my understanding too. X290s with factory fit radios (VP1/VP2) are wired differently and the radios are integrated through the CAN bus with the instrument cluster and body computer. Fitting an aftermarket radio in place of the existing factory unit on these versions is not a simple matter and some aftermarket manufacturers specifically exclude factory fitted radio versions of the X290 from their compatibility lists. X290s that leave the factory with the "radio prep" option have different wiring less closely integrated into the CAN bus (if at all) and designed for easy fitment of aftermarket units. The instrument cluster and body computer configuration on these vehicles also differs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 ....as a follow-up to the above, I had a good look at the Connects2 site, which shows at least 3 different Steering Wheel Interfaces designated for the post 2015 Ducato (X/290). It recommends checking the wiring loom already in the vehicle to ensure compatibility (they all appear to have different connectors). I think Brian must have ended up with the simpler, analogue version which doesn't provide the reverse signal, etc. from the canbus. http://www.connects2.co.uk/Product/ProductItem/CTSFA016.2 However, I still suspect that these 3 are for the Ducato X/290 as already supplied with various factory-fit radios when you want to swap out to an aftermarket unit. Given that the dash of X/290s without the factory-fit radio is different (the same as the immediately preceding X/250) and I suspect, as I said, that the wiring loom carries the same characteristics, I think the SWI required was probably that from the immediately preceding X/250 without the factory-fitted radio http://www.connects2.co.uk/Product/ProductItem/CTSFA010.2 (Note the comment that it is for open-dash vehicles only, and that it is canbus-capable, and provides reverse signalling, etc.) ...unfortunately, without the ability to test the units without buying, this is all (albeit mildly informed) speculation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted April 12, 2018 Author Share Posted April 12, 2018 roger20 - 2018-04-11 8:11 PM Hi Brian Just picking up on this thread because I am about to fit a reversing camera to our new Hymer Exsis t588. I was attracted by the simplicity of Robin's solution not to use a reversing light trigger and read this earlier thread http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Hints-and-Tips/Reversing-light-wire-how-to-find-it-/37519/ which also mentioned a possible delay when manoeuvring back and forth between first and reverse. I wonder how you have found your system works in practice and whether you are still happy to let the camera switching take place automatically? Like you the prospect of diving into Canbus seems a little daunting, perhaps more so because I believe the rear lights on 2018 Hymers are apparently LED. Roger The short answer, Roger, is yes. The delay in switching views via the reverse connection is little to no greater than the delay that results from switching between the cameras manually. It remains possible to effect the camera switch manually even with the reverse connection made, so one can select the normal rear view, if preferred, with reverse selected, and vice versa. The above all refers to cameras and monitor being Dometic/Waeco. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roger20 Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 Thanks Brian If nothing else resurrecting this thread may help some others in the future faced with the dilemma of which fitting kit and SWC interface kit might be appropriate. Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted April 13, 2018 Author Share Posted April 13, 2018 Robinhood - 2018-04-11 10:51 PM Brian, I missed your response, which has only become apparent once the thread was re-awakened. (I can't even use the excuse that i was in NZ, as it was shortly after this). It seems like I may have caused you some pain (though it also appears that you have ended up with a working splitter (?) and integrated steering controls, albeit after some deliberation............................. No pain, some gain, and no problem, Robin. :-D The radio fitter knew his job, and has delivered a working solution at no extra cost. Hasn't been used in anger yet, but has worked OK up to now when tried. Thanks for your valuable inputs: but I'm still glad I didn't try to DIY! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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