Dr Dave Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2018-01-22 10:35 PM There seems to be a little confusion in some of the above posts. Most vans now have two types of safety devices. One is the miniature circuit breaker (MCB) (they have long taken the place of fuses, and are to be found in the consumer unit in the van). Their function is to protect the wiring in a particular circuit from overload, causing it to heat up and possibly catch fire. UK practice is to install these only to the "positive" side of the circuit, placing the MCB between the main switch and any appliance connected to the circuit. If the mains polarity is reversed, the appliance is now placed between the positive feed and the MCB, which is not desirable, and not how the installation is designed to function. Continental practice is to use twinned MCBs, so that both positive and negative wires are protected, and polarity becomes irrelevant. One or other of the MCBs will thus respond to overload, causing both to open. The other safety device is incorporated into the mains switch. This is a residual current device (RCD). Its function is to protect against electrocution. As described above, it does this by monitoring the current flowing into the system against that flowing out. If there is a difference in this current (meaning current is flowing to earth, possibly through a person), the switch instantly opens to cut off the supply to all the circuits. There are variants on this device, one combining the MCB function with that of the RCD (an RCBO), but they function in the same way regarding both overload and earth faults. These devices function irrespective of polarity. The function of the fuse in a BS plug is solely to protect the wiring between the plug and the appliance from overload. This is because the current available at the socket (usually 30A/7kW in UK) greatly exceeds the rating of the appliance and its connecting wiring. In the absence of the fuse, an appliance fault causing a short circuit could draw sufficient current to burn out the appliance wiring and possibly start a fire. Instead, the fuse blows. No doubt some people already confused reading this will be further confused by the reference to 'positive' and 'negative' feeds which are not appropriate when considering an alternating current supply. Sorry Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 No need to be sorry, I'm happy to be corrected. I just used the terminology that I, and I think most non-electricians, find familiar. Don't keep us in suspense, though - tell us what terminology we should use. It's no use to us inside your head! :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 Alanb - 2018-01-23 11:04 PM Brian Kirby - 2018-01-22 10:35 PM ...........Continental practice is to use twinned MCBs, so that both positive and negative wires .......... Please Brian, Live (L) and Neutral (N) when referring to an AC supply. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 Keithl - 2018-01-24 4:42 PM Alanb - 2018-01-23 11:04 PM Brian Kirby - 2018-01-22 10:35 PM ...........Continental practice is to use twinned MCBs, so that both positive and negative wires .......... Please Brian, Live (L) and Neutral (N) when referring to an AC supply. Alan Thanks Keith and Alan - missed that, didn't I? :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 If the alternating mains current alternates 50 times per second can one of the experts please explain to us electrical numpties why it matters which is which blue or brown, live or neutral, connection? Maybe we too should have dual pole switches on all our metal appliances? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanb Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 Hi Tracker and any other interested parties, I will try to explain in simple language, the UK situation in this matter. Some continental supplies may differ. What follows relates to the normal domestic single phase supply. In the UK electrical system the practice is to earth one output teminal of the supply transformer. (This will be the last transformer in the supply chain, and may be a large one in an enclosure at ground level in an urban environment with underground cables to the consumers premises, or ir rural areas a pole mounted transformer with either overhead or underground cables.) The output terminal connected to earth is the Neutral terminal. The other end of the transformer winding is connected to the Live terminal. Since neutral terminal is connected to earth by means of substantial earthing rods it's voltage is normally fixed. (In a12V -ve earth automotive system, you would expect the battery negative to be at ths same voltage as the chassis.) Since the neutral terminal is tied to earth the live terminal is the one where the voltage changes 50 times a second (50 Hz). The supply voltage is normally quoted as RMS or root mean square. This is the voltage that will give the same energy as an identical DC voltage. Either would dissipate 2kW in a 2kW heater, or 100W in a 100W filament lamp. However, as you already appreciate the RMS voltage does not give the actual voltage of the live terminal with respect to earth at any instant. The actual voltage if the supply is a perfect sine wave will vary from zero to 1,414 x RMS positive and the to 1.414 x RMS negative and back to zero at 50Hz. (1.414 is the square root of 2.) Meanwhile the neutral has stayed at zero volts. In these circumstances a conductor connected to the neutral terminal presents little hazard, but in no way am I suggesting that you go touching it. The actuaul peak voltage on a nominal 230V RMS supply will be 230 x 1.414= 325V. It therefore makes sense to place any fuse or single pole switch in the live conductor, so that is why we would take care to make sure that out connections are correct. That does not mean that a reversed polarity supply is going to smite you dead in normal circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EMS Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 As a historical aspect....... As has been explained with the neutral supply and the earth connection are not at the same voltage as the earthing point may be far from the neutral being used. When I was a lot younger I used a device I had built to utilise this potential difference of the neutral and earth supply to power a small battery charger, this was before the utilisation of the safety breakers that we have today. AC voltages of about 5 volts were typically found by this technique. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanb Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 EMS, I considered mentioning the effect of voltage drop in the neutral conductor due to load current, but I did not wish to complicate the issue. Your device connected between neutral and earth could be constued as "Fraudulant Abstraction of Electricity". I am not sure what would happen to your device under power system fault conditions, when large currents flow. My property is supplied by a system where the earth conductor is connected to the neutral at the point of supply in the meter cupboard, so there is minimal voltage between neutral and earth. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 It would have been interesting to know what the forum’s reaction would have been if Garry (mids) had originally asked “What is the worst case scenario if I have identified that a mains power-supply has reverse polarity and have corrected this?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 I sort of understand how AC works, but it still mostly remains a mystery, but having had the occasional jolt over the years and got away with it I do know enough not to take liberties any more! So if a single pole switch is deemed good enough for us why does the rest of Europe insist on double pole switching, or is that just a safeguard against reverse polarity because the electricians are more careless, or the system is designed for double pole so polarity is seen as unimportant? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 Tracker - 2018-01-25 11:24 AM............................So if a single pole switch is deemed good enough for us why does the rest of Europe insist on double pole switching, or is that just a safeguard against reverse polarity because the electricians are more careless, or the system is designed for double pole so polarity is seen as unimportant? I think you may find that the answer lies in your strap-line, Rich: No right or wrong ways - just different. :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spospe Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 Rich I am unsure exactly when it happened, but the UK elected to have the standard of single pole switching of the live, whilst most of mainland Europe has gone for double pole switching. A set of standards has thus been created so as to maintain the safety of users and people working on the equipment. The national standard is there for a reason, if it is not followed, then there will be problems for someone at sometime Single pole switching is intrinsically safer than double pole when it is wired correctly. The single pole switches the live wire, Throw the switch and the circuit is dead. Double pole switching suffers from the possible failure of the switch to properly switch both poles. A switch could fail so that the neutral was switched and the live left connected. The equipment would stop working and someone could then be electrocuted by touching live components. I have twice worked on equipment where a double pole switch failed in this manner, so it is not just a theoretical problem. I say again that standards are there for a reason, ignore them at your own risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 spospe - 2018-01-25 2:48 PM.......................Single pole switching is intrinsically safer than double pole when it is wired correctly. The single pole switches the live wire, Throw the switch and the circuit is dead............................. Michael, I seem to remember being told, somewhere in the dim and distant past, that this is not a completely reliable maxim. If I remember correctly it should be the case, but if there is a sufficient difference in resistance between neutral and earth, and especially if other circuits are under load, it is still possible to at least get a shock if one bridges neutral and earth. I don't know how theoretical this is, by the advice I was given was never to work on an individual circuit that was isolated if other circuits were live, but always to isolate the whole installation at the main switch, since that switch, again if I remember, will invariably be a DP switch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 Derek Uzzell - 2018-01-25 8:59 AM It would have been interesting to know what the forum’s reaction would have been if Garry (mids) had originally asked “What is the worst case scenario if I have identified that a mains power-supply has reverse polarity and have corrected this?" Derek, If I understand you correctly you are turning it around and asking what is the worst case on a EHU point 'corrected to "UK standard polarity". Obviously the worst case is that you could be electrocuted or the Motorhome catch fire. There is a perception that being on 'UK polarity' makes the motorhome 100% safe, but that reverse polarity makes it unsafe, which isn't true. Connection to UK polarity doesn't make for a safe Motorhome, it just reduces the risk, you can still be electrocuted and 230v mains fires can still start. A Motorhome usually has the EHU socket on the outside of the vehicle, with a short cable run from the EHU socket to the RCD assembly. This cable from the EHU socket to the RCD plus the connections each end, are totally unprotected. Should a fault develop in the cable, or the connections at each end, Fire may result. We have replaced 2 burnt standalone RCD/MCB units because of burning and overheating and repaired several Charger/Combined RCD units with either Burnt connectors on the RCD/MCB side. Faulty RCD/MCB units that fail to trip or stick are also not unknown. If a RCD/MCB fails to operate correctly, regardless of polarity, there is a risk. Likewise dismantling the RCD box to diagnose any fault while plugged into EHU is a risky thing to undertake. Touching the bare junctions/wires may result in electrocution, regardless of the Polarity of the EHU connection. Being careless isn't just a risk when on 'Reverse Polarity'. Electricity is dangerous in many forms and common sense needs to be applied to avoid Hazards. So to pick up Derek's poser : The response to the OP's question on 'Worst case', in either Polarity scenarios, is electrocution or fire in the Motorhome, But obviously this risk is very low. If common sense abounds, Reverse Polarity does not add any risk in a Modern Motorhome. It might have 40 years ago, but not today.. Slightly raised risks of Reverse Polarity revolve solely around working on live 230v electrics and putting your fingers in the wiring while it is live. Rather than get wound up about Reverse Polarity, lets change the message to 230v safety. To put the out dated advice on Reverse Polarity into perspective, consider those who have installed Inverters, many DIY installs, that don't have ANY safety mechanisms at all. Inverters are generally wired from the 12v battery into the Inverter which converts the 12v input to 230v output. This 230v then goes STRAIGHT to an Appliance, TV, Computer, Set Top Box, etc. without going through an RCD/MCB or even a real safety Earth There isn't any guarantee which of the two output 230v wires will be Live. It doesn't go through any separate voltage regulation. A fault inside the unit could see several hundreds of volts being output into a Sky set top box with a resulting Fire. We showed one astonished owner his Inverter was putting out 280volts!!! Some of those inverters are badly built, don't assume yours will always do what it says on the label or is safe. The way Inverters are used in Motorhomes is a significant hazard, but where is the advice and warnings to fit safety mechanisms? Please lets have lots of examples of why Posters on here think there is a major risk when on Reverse Polarity. But examples of working on a 1960's Valve TV just isn't going to be carried out by anyone in a Motorhome. It is also important to remember that much has changed abroad and the chances of finding a Reverse Polarity EHU in 2018 are extremely slim. But those living in the past will probably have you believe otherwise. Rather than focus on scaremongering about reverse polarity, why not bring the advice into this decade and advise people to take the utmost care when working on any 230v electrics in a Motorhome?. Plus the importance of quality double insulated appliances, especially when used on Inverters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 At last some good old fashioned sense from aandncaravans. The last three paragraphs in his last post about sums it up, great post Alan and I agree teach people to not dive into electrics or appliances without either unplugging mains supply or unplugging appliance. Reverse polarity just forget it, use your single brain cell instead, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laimeduck Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 I think an awful lot of you are being very arrogant. I say this because I am ignorant. I would hazard a guess that many on here are the same as me. I simply don't understand the jargon you use, nor do I have anything other than basic knowledge of electrics, whether 12V, 240V or any voltage! Because of my ignorance I wouldn't dream of opening up a casing of an electrical item & poking around in it if my motorhome was connected to an EHU. Because of this I do have a polarity checker and a short converter EHU lead, which I use every time I hook up. It gives me peace of mind. And I reckon from my experience that over the channel I have to use this lead at least 30% of the time, so the statement that reverse polarity is rare on the continent, is simply not correct. So .... do us ignoramuses a favour - humour us, don't belittle us!(or is that ignoramusii ?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanb Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2018-01-25 4:37 PM spospe - 2018-01-25 2:48 PM.......................Single pole switching is intrinsically safer than double pole when it is wired correctly. The single pole switches the live wire, Throw the switch and the circuit is dead............................. Michael, I seem to remember being told, somewhere in the dim and distant past, that this is not a completely reliable maxim. If I remember correctly it should be the case, but if there is a sufficient difference in resistance between neutral and earth, and especially if other circuits are under load, it is still possible to at least get a shock if one bridges neutral and earth. I don't know how theoretical this is, by the advice I was given was never to work on an individual circuit that was isolated if other circuits were live, but always to isolate the whole installation at the main switch, since that switch, again if I remember, will invariably be a DP switch. I can think of two scenarios that have may have prompted the warning given to Brian. 1. A faulty appliance with an internal short circuit is connected to the system. We would hope that this would be isolated by the appropriate fuse blowing, or MCB tripping, however before this happens an extremely large current will flow to and from the supply transformer. The consumers installation will be in the middle of the loop created by the fault, with up to half of the supply voltage dropped in each of the live and neutral supply conductors. The installation including the neutral connections will be raised to approximately half of the supply voltage. 2. If the neutral conductor and not the live is damaged on the supply to the insallation. In these circumstances, if a load such as a filament lamp is switched on, a circuit will exist as far as the break in the neutral via the lamp. All neutral conductors will then become live. I can think of another more technical scenario, but as we have already upset Jeramy who does not worry.... Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 AlanB, in your example 1 the MCB and fuses would blow so quickly as to make the effect irrelevant. Even then, there is only an issue if someone starts poking their fingers into the wiring while it is live. For example 2, I am not sure I understand the example as in a reverse polarity situation the Neutral cable is already Live? But, regardless of that there is still no issue unless people start dismantling equipment in the Motorhome and grab hold of bare wires without first pulling the EHU cable. Is anyone really going to do that in a Motorhome in the middle of a holiday? All around Europe, France, Belgium, Spain, Italy, Holland, etc there is no concept of reverse polarity. They expect that polarity might be either way and act accordingly by being sensible around 230v electrics. Not one continental built Motorhome we have come across has a reverse polarity warning light, because it just doesn't matter. Anyone with a Continental built motorhome can wander all over Europe without the need to check EHU polarity, without problems. If it is such a serious issue, then someone should write to Hymer and tell them they have got it all wrong the last 20 years. To come back to Jeremy's post about arrogant, I think it is a measure of the UK industries arrogance that they think 'the British way' is right and the rest of the World is wrong. We should have followed the lead of our continental cousins 30 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanb Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 Allan, I was merely posing an answer to Brians implied question. I fully agree that the excess current protection, be it fuses or MCB should remove the speculated fault, but it would take perhaps a minimum of half cycle or 25mS. As regards my second example, I took it that Brian's query related to a larger i.e. non motorhome installation, without reversed polarity. Sorry for your confusion, perhaps I should have sent a PM to Brian instead of replying on open forum. In general I would agree with you that in normal circumstances reversed polarity is not as serious as it made out to be. To quote myself above, " That does not mean that a reversed polarity supply is going to smite you dead in normal circumstances. ". Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 Then perhaps I should try to explain better. Michael said "Single pole switching is intrinsically safer than double pole when it is wired correctly. The single pole switches the live wire, Throw the switch and the circuit is dead." Accepting the proviso that the installation must be wired correctly, the alarm bell rang for the final statement "The single pole switches the live wire, Throw the switch and the circuit is dead". This was not with particular reference to motorhomes, or reversed polarity, and was part of his reply to Rich's general question "So if a single pole switch is deemed good enough for us why does the rest of Europe insist on double pole switching, or is that just a safeguard against reverse polarity because the electricians are more careless, or the system is designed for double pole so polarity is seen as unimportant?" I just felt uneasy at the certainty that Michael's statement conveys. For example: which switch are we talking about? The main switch, the switch at a socket, or possibly tripping (switching off) an MCB (or pulling a fuse) to isolate just one circuit? In view of Rich's comment regarding his understanding of electrical installations, I thought Michael's statement (though correct under ideal circumstances) just a bit too conclusive. The warning, as I recall it, was that (assuming constant voltage) circuit resistance rises with load (Ohm's Law). At times of peak demand the resistance of the neutral will be significantly greater than that on the (generally load free) earth. (This being the basis for providing the safety earth.) Under (but not limited to) those circumstances, if one bridges neutral and earth, it is possible that one might provide a lower resistance path from neutral to earth, and so get a shock. From memory, this advice came during to a conversation I had with an electrical engineer (MIEE) colleague at work, while recounting progress on my DIY re-wiring of our newly acquired house (original 1930's VR insulated, DC wired - with later DIY additions, condemned by the surveyor!), when I had said I was tripping out MCBs in order to isolate bits of the new installation while finishing it off, while other, finished, parts were live and in use. I had adopted Michael's maxim that with the relevant live "off" the unfinished circuits would be safe to work on. As I was DIYing from textbooks, am not an electrician, and he was an electrical engineer, I took due note of the warning - and retained it! :-D (Just in case this tale worries anyone, it was a long time ago, and the installation was checked by a SEEBOARD (that long ago!) engineer before being finally approved and connected to the mains terminal. He was even complimentary about the standard of my amateur workmanship, so I had obviously used a good textbook!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 aandncaravan - 2018-01-25 8:29 PM...........................A Motorhome usually has the EHU socket on the outside of the vehicle, with a short cable run from the EHU socket to the RCD assembly. This cable from the EHU socket to the RCD plus the connections each end, are totally unprotected.............................. It is wise to assume this, although the great majority of site electrical installations are protected both by DP MCBs (largely for commercial reasons) at the supply pillar, and by RCDs (although these latter may not be located at the pillar). However, some countries do this better than others, so assuming the worst makes good sense! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanb Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2018-01-26 6:37 PM ........The warning, as I recall it, was that (assuming constant voltage) circuit resistance rises with load (Ohm's Law). At times of peak demand the resistance of the neutral will be significantly greater than that on the (generally load free) earth. (This being the basis for providing the safety earth.) Under (but not limited to) those circumstances, if one bridges neutral and earth, it is possible that one might provide a lower resistance path from neutral to earth, and so get a shock...... Sorry Brian, I just cannot agree with that statement as it stands. You have got it the wrong way round. The resistance of the neutral conductor should remain fairly constant . ( I accept that it will vary in direct proportion to the temperature above absolute zero.) The voltage drop along the neutral conductor will vary in direct proportion to the current that it carries. That is Ohm's Law. At times of high loads it is possible that several volts will be developed (or lost) along the neutral conductor. (Likewise in the live conductor.) As the neutral is bonded to earth at the local transformer (substation), and the earth is not carrying current, the voltage drop along the neutral will appear between earth and neutral at the remote end. That is at the consumer premises. If this voltage is sufficiently high to impart an electric shock, there is something wrong with the 230V supply network. The reason for the safety earth is to prevent any metal enclosures or other metalwork becoming live in a fault situation. By bonding such metalwork to earth, a fault to the enclosure effectively becomes a live to neutral fault via the earth connection, thus causing the fuse to blow, or MCB to trip. This method of earth fault protection has been superseded by RCDs, but still provides a second layer of protection. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 Brian and Alanb, It now sounds that maybe we might be close to a consensus, with maybe extra emphasis on safety when working on 230v electrics? Very aware of Jeremy's comment, so wonder if we can create a none technical summary that the three of us can feed into as the last part of the Post is a bit unreadable to a non technical person? What do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 Alanb - 2018-01-26 10:32 PM....................... As the neutral is bonded to earth at the local transformer (substation), and the earth is not carrying current, the voltage drop along the neutral will appear between earth and neutral at the remote end. That is at the consumer premises. If this voltage is sufficiently high to impart an electric shock, there is something wrong with the 230V supply network. The reason for the safety earth is to prevent any metal enclosures or other metalwork becoming live in a fault situation. By bonding such metalwork to earth, a fault to the enclosure effectively becomes a live to neutral fault via the earth connection, thus causing the fuse to blow, or MCB to trip. This method of earth fault protection has been superseded by RCDs, but still provides a second layer of protection. Alan Thank you Alan, and no need to apologise. As I said I'm not an electrician or engineer, and was trying to remember what I hade been told years ago. So, is your first paragraph above to be understood as meaning that Michael's statement that with the live switched "off the circuit is dead" is a reliable guide to safety. If so, I owe Michael an apology for mis-correcting him! :-) Where I live the mains cables are old, and are generally thought to be running a bit "hot" these days due to the greater number of electrical appliances we all now use. Are we therefore safe in assuming that the 230V network will be maintained in a fault free condition? Our earth is provided via the armouring of the incoming main (which is terminated in our house but branches on to supply next door). I'm not aware that anyone has checked the actual resistance since we moved in, over 30 years ago. My comment regarding the design assumption of a safety earth being that its resistance will generally be lower than that on the neutral was not intended to query the reason it is provided, just to try to explain the circumstances, as I remembered them, under which a risk of shock might arise of only the live had been isolated. I am aware that a great number of houses dating from the 1930's (and later) contain remnants of very old wiring, still have fuse-boxes, and definitely don't have ELCB or RCD mains switches. As it happens, ours is on an ELCB, for which I believe a good earth is still essential? I appreciate this strays from motorhomes insofar as their internal installations are concerned, but many folk connect them to house supplies from time to time, so has some relevance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 The power station supplying the AC At 50 or 60 HZ at 15000 volts in their cables have no polarity or an earth minus to the ground, the same as your motorhome.Tthe earth is their chassis and a very bad one because of coroded earth terminals, which can already being the case and the min of your battery location. Strange things can happen than. Follow the strict colour code of wiring schematic supplied for your mobile house Even the french motorhomes. They have invented the bayonette connection. The earth of AC is very complicated. In our motor homes we have three systems , keep them apart all the time, first 230 volt AC which will be used for the waterboiler,fridge, and the battery loader, if on a docking station 230 volt Ac, be aware of the lenght of your cable, amps and voltage receiving. always roll out, and use cable fit for purpose and renew in case of damage. Second you have the 12 v dc of your cabin car, suggest that you have an idea how it works under the bonnet and under the dash. How to restart in case of flat Accu. And at last the 12 v dc in the house. Load your batts every month for 24 hours. And start reload if the voltage reads 12.5 volt. So shall it be written and so shall it be done according the romans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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