Varta LFD90 Batteries

[aandncaravan]

Ron, sorry about the 'arguing', but it was relevant to the thread of Varta LFD90's as you (or anyone else reading the thread) may have been persuaded to consider different batteries from the comments made.

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

Ron

 

A couple of follow-up comments based on what was said in the French forum discussion I mentioned above.

 

1: A Ducato cab-seat fitted with a swivel-plate is heavy and unwieldy. So if you are considering DIYing the battery installation, bear that in mind.

 

2: Electrical cables pass from the underside of the seat through the swivel-plate’s centre and connect up within the seat-box, and when the seat is swivelled, those cables will move around. There’s no problem when the seat-boxes are empty, but care needs to be taken to avoid the cables rubbing or snagging on anything that’s put in the seat-box. It would be wise when a battery is installed in a seat-box to put some sort of cover over the top of the battery/batteries to minimise the chance of the cables catching or abrading.

[Deneb]

StuartO - 2018-03-06 12:44 PM

Deneb - 2018-03-06 8:48 AM ... I am quite happy with them ...

 

Forums often attract positive comments from people who have spent their money and like to feel they have done so wisely, so they continue to endorse the product or service, even when they are faced with credible evidence that its quality might well be inferior; I think it's a human nature thing.

Except that I didn't buy them and had no choice when it came to their fitment. Read through the thread and you will see that I never said they were equivalent to, or superior to LFD90s, only that I had been pleasantly surprised in that they have so far exceeded my fairly low expectations.As you mention credible evidence, I gave none for the Hankooks performance, only my observations.I have been a lurker here for quite some time before I started posting. Like many people on the forum, I like and value Allan's contributions, although with my professional hat on I hope he will forgive me for saying that his frequent repetition of JCIs advertising claims, which are obviously carefully crafted to show their product in the most attractive light possible, do not constitute evidence unless they can be verified by a scientific, rigorous and thoroughly impartial method of testing, which does not seem to exist on the internet. I admit this does tend to niggle me somewhat, which may have contributed to the tone of my posts.Allan, please don't get upset, I mean this as an observation rather than a criticism. Maybe it doesn't matter to many of you, but I am used to questioning anything presented as a fact, unless it is accompanied by hard evidence to back it up. Were I to make a claim in court without objective evidence to hand, not only could that statement be rejected, but it could also affect my credibility as a witness and cast doubt over any other evidence that I had to offer. Your own very useful and appreciated observations do sometimes tend to get lost in an almost evangelical repetition of the manufacturer's advertising blurb when it comes to Varta batteries. More emphasis on you own observations and experience and less on the their claims would (for me) add a great deal to the weight of your remarks.Anyway, I can't believe that such a long discussion resulted from a short paragraph containing the phrase "playing devils advocate"!I shall now run off and say no more on this subject, despite the temptation, whilst awaiting the midnight knock on the door from the battery police 8-)

[aandncaravan]

Deneb, be prepared to be shocked, I agree with you!!!

 

You are right it is a real shame there are no battery group comparison tests. Something I hoped would be addressed by the NCC 'Verified battery' scheme.

 

The NCC say the batteries in it's verification scheme have been independently tested. Yet they don't publish any test results and requests from ourselves for copies of them have gone unanswered.

They don't even publish the criteria against which the batteries are tested.

I suspect the lack of any evidence of independent testing is because there isn't any.

 

But I live in hope that will change, hence the challenge to the NCC on the Battery Tech page to fix things.

 

 

As for you wanting to hear about our personal experience with batteries, that is probably at odds with what most others want to hear.

Derek would probably be sick of hearing it as he has been hearing our tripe since 2013. However, our Home page does cover some of it. It states :

 

 

"We knew about battery chargers, but wanted to know more about Batteries and their impact on a Charger. In 2012/2013 we carried out extensive research on Batteries, cutting open many different makes and technologies in an effort to understand why one battery can work well and another fails so quickly.

Why one battery might be kind to a Charger and why another seemed to have such a devastating effect.

 

We dissected the batteries we removed from vehicles to see which technology was used, how well they had aged and what had taken place inside the battery during the aging process. We noted those that were well made and those that were poor and what aging/degradation inside the battery related to the damage we found in the charger unit.

 

We also looked at how they were being used in the vehicle and what equipment they powered.

Learning what type of use deteriorates a battery, with subsequent charger failure, also meant lots of conversations with Motorhome owners about how they use the vehicle.

 

With these first hand comments on usage, the evidence of the damaged charger, plus being able to also see inside the batteries gave us an insight into Batteries, Chargers and Motorhome usage like no one else.

 

As a result we were able to create our Battery technology webpages from Real World experience".

 

 

 

 

We have cut open several Powerframe batteries (not a huge number because tired ones are truly hard to come by) one of which was nearly 7 years old and powered two Citroen Picasso's we owned.

Despite the Picasso battery running flat twice due to lights being left on (a killer for most Starter batteries) it seemed unaffected. The second car developed a fault that resulted in the Mobile technician cranking the Starter continuously for almost 15 minutes trying to start it before I found out and stopped him.

I would have normally put the battery on a slow charge, but wanted to stress this battery to see how it goes, so just drove it on high Alternator charge from almost flat to put the power back.

 

Again that should have resulted in obvious damage, or at least gassing when charging. The battery sat uncovered under the Passenger seat vented to the cabin, yet we never smelt any Gassing.

When we sold the second Picasso I cut open the battery to find no fluid loss and no signs that the battery had been used to any extent. Zero corrosion and zero detached paste. Absolutely NONE of the degradation I was used to seeing in batteries half that age.

 

 

No other budget battery built by the Korean Storage Battery company would have been like that. All the budgets we cut open always showed much greater deterioration inside than a quality brand like Exide or Yuasa. Despite people thinking all batteries are the same, there is a massive difference between the big names and the small names in batteries.

 

 

Back in 2012 we swapped out a dead Bosch Starter battery and put in the customers own battery. The Bosch S5 was then cut open like all we were doing back then and it was a revelation. The quality of the plates, interconnects and clean, clear acid was quite unusual. Despite it being a Starter battery the plates were more like a quality deeper cycling Leisure battery. Apart from severe sulphation damage from being left in a discharged state for some time, it was like new.

We had never seen one before but were impressed with the technology and quality of construction. The Plates were Heavy Duty for a Starter battery so we researched what it was and read about Powerframe. We looked out for others and got another, which also impressed.

 

We then bought a new one and overcharged it, over dis-charged it, gave it a high load, etc.

Charged it, ran it flat with a headlight bulb, charged it, ran it flat, etc.

 

Then cut it open to see how it had faired.

Again, very impressed.

 

So we started telling the World about this Bosch S5 Powerframe Starter battery that was twice as good as any budget leisure battery (that all had Starter battery construction, despite the labelling) yet the Bosch cost only slightly more.

 

I think at the time it was about £82 when a very inferior Lion was £76 or thereabouts?

 

I remember long arguments with many on the forums and via email that a Starter battery can't possibly be as good as a 'Leisure' battery, but they didn't know how poor their Starter based Leisure batteries were. Now clearly shown by the Numax/Hankook XV range comparison on our battery tech pages : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/battery-technology.php

 

 

I can remember one very long 'discussion' around 2013 with Derek and Brambles where they pointed out the new Varta LFD/L5 used the same Powerframe technology, was better and cheaper than the Bosch S5 so we evaluated it and agreed. We then switched our advice to this Varta battery which did have even thicker, deeper cycling plates than the Bosch S5.

 

Yet to be fair to the old S5, to this date I have not cut open any budget Leisure that exceeded the quality construction and capability of the Bosch S5, despite it 'only being a Starter battery'.

To give you an idea of just how good the Powerframe technology made the Bosch S5, if I had to make a choice between a 100Ah Banner Energy Bull and a Powerframe 100Ah S5 Starter battery, I would choose the Starter battery every time.

Yet the Banner is one of the best deep cyclers of the 'also ran', it just uses a lot of fluid so needs special care.

 

Nothing notified to us, or we have seen, since has come close to the LFD90.

 

 

But remember our primary expertise is Battery chargers, we only got involved with batteries and rebuilding Alternators to learn why there were so many mains charger/Alternator failures.

 

We wanted to make sure that when we repaired a charger, it didn't come back. That meant learning about batteries and how they were used/abused and providing advice on caring for them to reduce the load on the charging systems.

 

Even better, we managed to identify which were the most cost effective batteries that worked well, and let everyone know.

 

 

 

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

aandncaravan - 2018-03-07 10:20 PM

 

...Derek would probably be sick of hearing it as he has been hearing our tripe since 2013...

 

 

In the UK, human rights are protected by the Human Rights Act 1998 and Article 9 of the Act protects the right to hold and manifest religious beliefs.

 

I’m unsure about the religious status of Powerframeism in the UK at present, but if Scientology is acceptable... ;-)

[Deneb]

Allan, thank you. That's much more interesting and useful than JCI/Varta's advertising claims.

 

I admit to being cynical about advertising claims anyway (as you may have noticed) and when a manufacturer tries to turn an unavoidable side effect of manufacturing metal sheet (which they may well be buying from an external supplier) into a unique selling point for their product it makes me suspicious about their other claims as well.

 

Then I do a bit more digging and find that their patent makes no reference to any of the claims used in their advertising material, but is more concerned with material and production cost savings and ease of manufacture which of course they make no mention of in advertising, and my bull**** scanner gets even worse.

 

One aspect they do mention in the document however is the ability of the battery design to accept much faster charging and discharging without damage, which seems to agree with your observations re high alternator charge, overcharging and discharging etc.

 

Very interesting and much more useful, so thank you ;-)

[aandncaravan]

Derek Uzzell - 2018-03-08 8:29 AM

 

aandncaravan - 2018-03-07 10:20 PM

 

...Derek would probably be sick of hearing it as he has been hearing our tripe since 2013...

 

 

In the UK, human rights are protected by the Human Rights Act 1998 and Article 9 of the Act protects the right to hold and manifest religious beliefs.

 

I’m unsure about the religious status of Powerframeism in the UK at present, but if Scientology is acceptable... ;-)

 

 

Derek, I like that, very funny.

 

Anybody want to join my Powerframeism Church, Thousands already in the congregation?

 

You do need to be good at listening to sermons though?

 

 

 

 

 

[Keithl]

aandncaravan - 2018-03-08 10:12 AM

 

Derek Uzzell - 2018-03-08 8:29 AM

 

aandncaravan - 2018-03-07 10:20 PM

 

...Derek would probably be sick of hearing it as he has been hearing our tripe since 2013...

 

 

In the UK, human rights are protected by the Human Rights Act 1998 and Article 9 of the Act protects the right to hold and manifest religious beliefs.

 

I’m unsure about the religious status of Powerframeism in the UK at present, but if Scientology is acceptable... ;-)

 

 

Derek, I like that, very funny.

 

Anybody want to join my Powerframeism Church, Thousands already in the congregation?

 

You do need to be good at listening to sermons though?

 

 

Allan,

 

I was possibly one of the first to buy into the movement!

 

I bought my LFD90 in October 2011 and it is still going strong! Very pleased with my purchase.

 

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/VARTA-Leisure-Batteries-New-Range/25243/

 

Keith.

[Deneb]

Keithl - 2018-03-08 12:13 PM

 

I bought my LFD90 in October 2011 and it is still going strong! Very pleased with my purchase.

 

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/VARTA-Leisure-Batteries-New-Range/25243/

 

Keith.

 

Another good report. Thank you :-)

[ron.]

Derek Uzzell - 2018-03-06 2:23 PM

 

Ron

 

A couple of follow-up comments based on what was said in the French forum discussion I mentioned above.

 

1: A Ducato cab-seat fitted with a swivel-plate is heavy and unwieldy. So if you are considering DIYing the battery installation, bear that in mind.

 

2: Electrical cables pass from the underside of the seat through the swivel-plate’s centre and connect up within the seat-box, and when the seat is swivelled, those cables will move around. There’s no problem when the seat-boxes are empty, but care needs to be taken to avoid the cables rubbing or snagging on anything that’s put in the seat-box. It would be wise when a battery is installed in a seat-box to put some sort of cover over the top of the battery/batteries to minimise the chance of the cables catching or abrading.

 

Thanks again Derek - but no thanks I won't be going anywhere near electronics in a motorhome, I'll leave that to others. I just hope that my current dealer is a bit more switched on (sorry for the pun) than some I have had to deal with in the past. I have been passing on info gleaned from the thread!

 

What an extraordinary response I have had to the thread, for which I am very grateful to one and all.

 

Ron

[aandncaravan]

As a result of this thread we changed our 'Battery Technology' web page, from what was basically a glowing reference on Varta/Bosch batteries, to show the technology of budget batteries to demonstrate just how different the best and the worst batteries are. http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/battery-technology.php

 

We thought that showing just how different batteries were, would better highlight the advanced technology and capability of the Varta/Bosch Powerframe batteries, rather than us just saying, 'they are brilliant'.

We used manufacturer supplied information and graphs in our comparison.

 

We now have a Battery Retailer (note not a manufacturer) threatening legal action because they claim, 'our information is inaccurate'. Yet they won't stipulate where those inaccuracies are.

 

They are demanding the references to Numax batteries are removed from the web site. So far the approach has been one of threatening action, rather than supplying corrections to 'our inaccuracies'.

 

I now need to go back through the webpages and make sure what we have printed is accurate.

 

We would also appreciate people reading the webpage and suggesting, via a PM, areas of the text that might break libel laws or otherwise land us in hot water, as I have no intention of removing text that highlights mis-selling by some retailers.

 

 

[kevina]

A little off-topic but my Varta Silver Dynamic starter battery is on the way out, 5 years old now so can't really complain but I expected more. Returned from Switzerland last Monday and today it is at 12.0v. Control panel is off, radio is out and I know there are no other loads on it. It has always been charged about once every 2-3 weeks, normally with a dedicated ctek charger.

 

Whilst we were away it seemed to be losing voltage quickly so I had to start leaving the fridge on gas to get that extra 0.5v into the battery whilst driving.

[david lloyd]

Derek Uzzell - 2018-03-03 9:20 AM

 

If the Fiat-based motorhome you will be obtaining has the under-seat plastic tray that’s mentioned above, in addition to the lateral metal ‘rod’ at the front of the seat base (clearly visible in Deneb’s photo) there is another lateral metal rod further back to which the rear of the tray attaches. The rear rod may not be an impediment if a LFD90 is fitted crossways (as the battery would probably fit between the front and rear rods) but the rear rod would obstruct if the battery were fitted lengthways.

 

I recall that you were asking about Chausson motorhomes in January. This 2015/2016 thread

 

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Battery-size-type/40301/

 

discussed a leisure-battery installed under a new Chausson’s cab-seat. On Page 2 of the thread Robinhood confirmed that the pair of Varta LA95 batteries fitted beneath his Ducato X290’s diriver’s seat had the same dimensions as a Varta LFD90. Although putting two Varta LA95s was practicable in Robinhood’s case, the thread’s final posting on Page 3 indicates that this may sometimes present difficulties and an approach with a single battery in each seat-base may be required.

 

Where in the motorhome you’ve ordered is the leisure-battery fitted as standard?

 

Ron,

 

I am the person Derek (I believe) is referring to in the thread he is directing you to in this post. I can confirm that I did have Varta LFD90 batteries fitted beneath the driver and passenger seat of the 2015 Chausson we had at the time. Just out of interest, the original Banner Energy Bull fitted by the supplying dealer had not been vented but I had both Varta's vented - just in case!

 

Hope your dealer can get you sorted as they proved to be excellent batteries.

 

David

[aandncaravan]

We have really upset someone now by exposing just how poor some Leisure batteries can be.

 

Received a letter from an International Law firm threatening Court Action. Unless our presentation of manufacturer based graphs and figures is removed by 16:00 today, Legal action will commence.

 

Read the full letter here : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/battery-technology.php

 

 

 

[david lloyd]

aandncaravan - 2018-03-15 9:53 AM

 

We have really upset someone now by exposing just how poor some Leisure batteries can be.

 

Received a letter from an International Law firm threatening Court Action. Unless our presentation of manufacturer based graphs and figures is removed by 16:00 today, Legal action will commence.

 

Read the full letter here : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/battery-technology.php

 

 

 

Crikey, the world we live in Alan.

 

So, shouldn't they be challenging the person(s) who created the graph? You may not be the only person who is using the information to make decisions and if the content is so clearly wrong then perhaps they should be ensuring a) that it is removed from wherever it appears and b) as you say, provide in its stead the correct information to replace it.

 

David

[aandncaravan]

"Crikey, the world we live in Alan.

So, shouldn't they be challenging the person(s) who created the graph? You may not be the only person who is using the information to make decisions and if the content is so clearly wrong then perhaps they should be ensuring a) that it is removed from wherever it appears and b) as you say, provide in its stead the correct information to replace it.

David"

 

 

 

David, I am struggling with the idea that Atlasbx, a BIG company, would get such an important International marketing document 'wrong'. That document lists the range they offer World wide for retailers to resell with their own label.

I don't think the graph is wrong. It matches the performance we would expect having cut open a lot of these batteries.

 

I think what the Law Firm mean is that it is 'outdated' because it no longer appears on the manufacturer datasheet having mysteriously disappeared, surprisingly, just this week.

 

The Datasheet has been replaced by a new version without the graph, but otherwise 100% identical.

 

Even the charts showing that the XV batteries use a Starter Battery Paste formulation are still in place along with the chart that shows the DC range are not designed to Deep Cycle. Funnily enough, just as the graph did.

 

 

The assertion by Manbat that they their XV batteries use DC technology and the DC range uses XDC technology also raises some questions.

Like :

1. why doesn't the batteries we have cut open reflect that?

2. why doesn't the DC range on the NCC verified scheme show the cycle life of an XDC battery?

3 would you really be that obtuse to label your batteries so strangely? Imagine the confusion in the factory with workers putting a 'DC' label on an 'XDC'; battery. Wouldn't that rate as one of the most bizarre business decisions ever?

 

And there was me thinking this might trigger change for the better, not a gagging order.

 

How many times over the years have we heard claims that the lower end Leisure batteries are Starter battery based?, this might be the time to bring that into the open. If necessary by a Court ruling.

 

We will see what happens next, I will keep the webpage updated.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Keithl]

Well I see your website is still up and running Allan, so when does the threat become real?

 

Or will they meet your request for the true data to update your site?

 

Keith.

[aandncaravan]

Yes the data is still on the website.

 

Just waiting for a response which I guess will come over the next few days?.

 

 

 

 

[ron.]

david lloyd - 2018-03-14 7:07 PM

 

Derek Uzzell - 2018-03-03 9:20 AM

 

If the Fiat-based motorhome you will be obtaining has the under-seat plastic tray that’s mentioned above, in addition to the lateral metal ‘rod’ at the front of the seat base (clearly visible in Deneb’s photo) there is another lateral metal rod further back to which the rear of the tray attaches. The rear rod may not be an impediment if a LFD90 is fitted crossways (as the battery would probably fit between the front and rear rods) but the rear rod would obstruct if the battery were fitted lengthways.

 

I recall that you were asking about Chausson motorhomes in January. This 2015/2016 thread

 

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Battery-size-type/40301/

 

discussed a leisure-battery installed under a new Chausson’s cab-seat. On Page 2 of the thread Robinhood confirmed that the pair of Varta LA95 batteries fitted beneath his Ducato X290’s diriver’s seat had the same dimensions as a Varta LFD90. Although putting two Varta LA95s was practicable in Robinhood’s case, the thread’s final posting on Page 3 indicates that this may sometimes present difficulties and an approach with a single battery in each seat-base may be required.

 

Where in the motorhome you’ve ordered is the leisure-battery fitted as standard?

 

Ron,

 

I am the person Derek (I believe) is referring to in the thread he is directing you to in this post. I can confirm that I did have Varta LFD90 batteries fitted beneath the driver and passenger seat of the 2015 Chausson we had at the time. Just out of interest, the original Banner Energy Bull fitted by the supplying dealer had not been vented but I had both Varta's vented - just in case!

 

Hope your dealer can get you sorted as they proved to be excellent batteries.

 

David

 

Thanks for that David. My dealer still has doubts so I have listed my preferred positions for the batteries, in order of preference, as; Both under passenger seat, one each under each cab seat, both under drivers seat, both under the O/S berth. Part of the exercise is to better distribute the loading in the van. If none of them work I will suggest putting them on the roof!

 

Ron

[aandncaravan]

Keithl - 2018-03-15 4:49 PM

 

Well I see your website is still up and running Allan, so when does the threat become real?

 

Or will they meet your request for the true data to update your site?

 

Keith.

 

Keith, Some significant developments, including receipt of a graph from Manbat that actually shows the battery has significantly less cycle life than they originally claimed.

I don't think they realised what they sent us.

 

We think it shows the battery performs exactly as per the 'contentious' graph that was removed from the manufacturers website, which incidentally was removed because of Manbat.

 

The response last night from a Manbat director was enlightening.

The content suggests a lot of questions should be asked about the honesty of the NCC verified scheme.

 

It seems that there are no independent battery tests. The NCC just 'verify' a battery based on marketing documentation. There is evidence that they don't even do a very good job of that. One battery has been given a 230 cycle rating, solely based on a letter from the manufacturer. Not using the data from a battery test of any sort.

 

 

I won't update this thread any further, but we have created a new web page to track this Legal Action against us, see it here : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/court-action.php

 

Still a work in progress, so please make allowances.