Brexit. The public need to re-engage

[Brian Kirby]

pelmetman - 2018-04-21 12:45 PM............................You forgot about the fact that criminals don't follow the rules ;-) ...........

 

Which is why we have a lot of EU criminals in our country and in our prisons *-) ..........

Obviously, otherwise they wouldn't be criminals. And yes, you're probably right that some criminals succeed in getting into the UK, and then get caught in the UK. But this happens despite the immigration laws passed by the UK government and, as far as I am aware, is true of immigrants from all countries.

 

The laws that apply to immigrants from outside the EU, for example the middle east, are stricter than those that apply to those from within the EU and yet, according to your soul mate Antony, our prisons are bursting at the seams with middle eastern felons.

 

So, the question is, why is it that laws enacted in the UK fail to stop criminals from the EU and elsewhere getting into the UK? Is it because the criminals who enter the UK don't have criminal records when they enter (so there is no reason to exclude them), because the Border Force (or whatever they are now called) don't do their jobs properly, because the government tells the Border Force to apply "light touch control", or because the laws that parliament passes are inadequate? Or is it because some people, wherever they come from, just are criminals, and commit crimes, get caught, get tried and sentenced, and end up in prison?

 

How can anyone tell, when they rock up at the UK frontier, whether this or that person will go on to commit crimes in the UK? If you can answer that, you'll become the richest man on earth! :-D

[Guest pelmetman]

Brian Kirby - 2018-04-21 7:19 PM

 

How can anyone tell, when they rock up at the UK frontier, whether this or that person will go on to commit crimes in the UK? If you can answer that, you'll become the richest man on earth! :-D

 

Seeing as benefit fraud is a major drain on UK PLC.......You forget they will not have automatic access to our benefit system as a EU citizen ;-) ........

 

Latest figures I can find :-| ..........

 

How many EU migrants claim benefits in the UK?

As of February 2015, 113, 960 working-age claimants of DWP benefits were EU migrants (that is, when they first registered for a National Insurance Number, they were a national of another member state). This represents 2.2% of total claimants.

 

Most of these were claiming an “out of work benefit” such as Jobseekers Allowance. However, the total includes some benefits, such as Housing Benefit and Disability Living Allowance, which can be paid to those in or out of work.

 

As of March 2014 317,800 families who were in receipt of tax credits, 6.8% of total claimants, contained at least one adult who was an EU national at NINo registration.

 

I wonder what the figure is now? >:-) .........

 

 

[Bulletguy]

pelmetman - 2018-04-21 8:27 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2018-04-21 7:19 PM

 

How can anyone tell, when they rock up at the UK frontier, whether this or that person will go on to commit crimes in the UK? If you can answer that, you'll become the richest man on earth! :-D

 

Seeing as benefit fraud is a major drain on UK PLC.......You forget they will not have automatic access to our benefit system as a EU citizen ;-) ........

 

Latest figures I can find :-| ..........

 

How many EU migrants claim benefits in the UK?

As of February 2015, 113, 960 working-age claimants of DWP benefits were EU migrants (that is, when they first registered for a National Insurance Number, they were a national of another member state). This represents 2.2% of total claimants.

 

Most of these were claiming an “out of work benefit” such as Jobseekers Allowance. However, the total includes some benefits, such as Housing Benefit and Disability Living Allowance, which can be paid to those in or out of work.

 

As of March 2014 317,800 families who were in receipt of tax credits, 6.8% of total claimants, contained at least one adult who was an EU national at NINo registration.

 

I wonder what the figure is now? >:-) .........

Out of the estimated 3 million working here that represents a miniscule figure. Well done on your copy 'n paste off UK in a changing Europe....a pro-Brexit website! (lol)

[Bulletguy]

 

Some more reading for you.

 

The UK's benefit payment systems do not systematically record the nationality of benefit claimants, as nationality does not generally determine eligibility for benefits. Consequently there is no complete picture of the number of migrants to the UK or foreign nationals in the UK who receive UK social security benefits and tax credits, or the cost of this.

 

In the absence of data on migrant claimants, DWP and other organisations have produced analyses based upon National Insurance Number registrations.

 

Are non-UK nationals more likely to receive out-of-work benefits than UK-born persons?

 

No. Non-UK nationals at the point of NINo registration are less likely to be receiving key DWP out-of-work benefits than UK-born.

 

Keep trying. (lol)

[derek pringle]

Barryd999 - 2018-04-21 10:25 AM

 

derek pringle - 2018-04-21 9:44 AM

 

Brian Kirby - 2018-04-20 6:51 PM

 

Tracker - 2018-04-20 5:25 PM.........................However I did hope that by limiting EU immigration, something we currently appear unable to do, it would be the start of proper immigration control..............................

But Rich, what my (admittedly tediously long) quotations from the EU rules on free movement and immigration show, is that the UK is free to limit immigration. The conditions under which it may do so are reasonably clear, appear fair and reasonable, and are no more than we would probably apply to would-be migrants from any source.

 

It seems to me that our government has failed to use the powers it agreed to in those two treaties effectively to manage EU migration to the UK to the proper advantage of our native population.

 

So far as I can see, all the clauses that say EU citizens have rights of entry to other states, attach conditions that reasonably restrict the extent and manner in which those rights can be invoked.

Hi Brian,

Thanks for the detailed info earlier. I agree with Tracker that immigration was not the only reason, I believe the pressure brought about by immigration on housing and the Benefits system were also major factors in the 'Leave' decision. As far as I am aware if a EU citizen arrives in your country they are entitled to any benefits that your native citizens get,provided they meet any qualifying requirements to achieve any benefit. We did/do not have many requirements so this means immigrants to this country become immediately qualified for many benefits. I believe this is one main reason why immigrants travel the extra distance to get to the UK instead of staying in countries nearer their homeland. Better benefits are paid in some other EU countries but would not be achievable to immigrants as easy as the UK.If the EU had a common benefits agreement aligned with each other then the playing field would be more level.

So, obviously, the less we give our own the less we have to give others, I do not think the problem is quite as sharp in some other EU states as their qualifications for achieving benefits alleviate much of the pressure.

cheers

derek

 

They cant just come here and start claiming benefits. They can after three months but only if they qualify and are actively looking for work and then I think its only for a maximum of six months. The UK is in the bottom four for generosity of benefits in Europe.

Hi Barry,

What then may I ask is your theory as to why these desperate people go through a lot more expense and hassle to travel over maybe a thousand miles extra to be in the UK,otherwise wouldn't they stay ion Italy or South of France instead.

cheers

derek

[Barryd999]

derek pringle - 2018-04-22 8:52 AM

 

Barryd999 - 2018-04-21 10:25 AM

 

derek pringle - 2018-04-21 9:44 AM

 

Brian Kirby - 2018-04-20 6:51 PM

 

Tracker - 2018-04-20 5:25 PM.........................However I did hope that by limiting EU immigration, something we currently appear unable to do, it would be the start of proper immigration control..............................

But Rich, what my (admittedly tediously long) quotations from the EU rules on free movement and immigration show, is that the UK is free to limit immigration. The conditions under which it may do so are reasonably clear, appear fair and reasonable, and are no more than we would probably apply to would-be migrants from any source.

 

It seems to me that our government has failed to use the powers it agreed to in those two treaties effectively to manage EU migration to the UK to the proper advantage of our native population.

 

So far as I can see, all the clauses that say EU citizens have rights of entry to other states, attach conditions that reasonably restrict the extent and manner in which those rights can be invoked.

Hi Brian,

Thanks for the detailed info earlier. I agree with Tracker that immigration was not the only reason, I believe the pressure brought about by immigration on housing and the Benefits system were also major factors in the 'Leave' decision. As far as I am aware if a EU citizen arrives in your country they are entitled to any benefits that your native citizens get,provided they meet any qualifying requirements to achieve any benefit. We did/do not have many requirements so this means immigrants to this country become immediately qualified for many benefits. I believe this is one main reason why immigrants travel the extra distance to get to the UK instead of staying in countries nearer their homeland. Better benefits are paid in some other EU countries but would not be achievable to immigrants as easy as the UK.If the EU had a common benefits agreement aligned with each other then the playing field would be more level.

So, obviously, the less we give our own the less we have to give others, I do not think the problem is quite as sharp in some other EU states as their qualifications for achieving benefits alleviate much of the pressure.

cheers

derek

 

They cant just come here and start claiming benefits. They can after three months but only if they qualify and are actively looking for work and then I think its only for a maximum of six months. The UK is in the bottom four for generosity of benefits in Europe.

Hi Barry,

What then may I ask is your theory as to why these desperate people go through a lot more expense and hassle to travel over maybe a thousand miles extra to be in the UK,otherwise wouldn't they stay ion Italy or South of France instead.

cheers

derek

 

Sorry Derek but this is where I think the confusion really is. Your clearly talking about None EU Migrants and refugees which is nothing to do with the EU or Brexit although given some of the propaganda and disgraceful campaigning from the likes of UKIP and farage with his refugees placard you could be forgiven for thinking it was.

 

However to answer your question, again its another myth. The amount of migrants and refugees that make their way to the UK or at least try to are minuscule compared to the numbers that settle in mainland Europe, particularly places like Germany. Again, you could be forgiven for thinking otherwise if you follow the likes of the Mail and Express. (not saying you read either). Those that do, perhaps they speak English as a second language or have relatives here. Same goes for other countries they decide on but there will be other factors. Many flocked to Germany because Mrs Merkal opened the doors, a policy that cause much controversy. Others just like the sound of certain countries.

 

As for EU Migrants coming here. They come to work if there are opportunities. Its supply and demand all over Europe. Of course there are chancers everywhere but generally despite what the media may say free movement is a good thing and in general has a positive outcome for the people and the economy.

[antony1969]

Barryd999 - 2018-04-22 9:20 AM

 

derek pringle - 2018-04-22 8:52 AM

 

Barryd999 - 2018-04-21 10:25 AM

 

derek pringle - 2018-04-21 9:44 AM

 

Brian Kirby - 2018-04-20 6:51 PM

 

Tracker - 2018-04-20 5:25 PM.........................However I did hope that by limiting EU immigration, something we currently appear unable to do, it would be the start of proper immigration control..............................

But Rich, what my (admittedly tediously long) quotations from the EU rules on free movement and immigration show, is that the UK is free to limit immigration. The conditions under which it may do so are reasonably clear, appear fair and reasonable, and are no more than we would probably apply to would-be migrants from any source.

 

It seems to me that our government has failed to use the powers it agreed to in those two treaties effectively to manage EU migration to the UK to the proper advantage of our native population.

 

So far as I can see, all the clauses that say EU citizens have rights of entry to other states, attach conditions that reasonably restrict the extent and manner in which those rights can be invoked.

Hi Brian,

Thanks for the detailed info earlier. I agree with Tracker that immigration was not the only reason, I believe the pressure brought about by immigration on housing and the Benefits system were also major factors in the 'Leave' decision. As far as I am aware if a EU citizen arrives in your country they are entitled to any benefits that your native citizens get,provided they meet any qualifying requirements to achieve any benefit. We did/do not have many requirements so this means immigrants to this country become immediately qualified for many benefits. I believe this is one main reason why immigrants travel the extra distance to get to the UK instead of staying in countries nearer their homeland. Better benefits are paid in some other EU countries but would not be achievable to immigrants as easy as the UK.If the EU had a common benefits agreement aligned with each other then the playing field would be more level.

So, obviously, the less we give our own the less we have to give others, I do not think the problem is quite as sharp in some other EU states as their qualifications for achieving benefits alleviate much of the pressure.

cheers

derek

 

They cant just come here and start claiming benefits. They can after three months but only if they qualify and are actively looking for work and then I think its only for a maximum of six months. The UK is in the bottom four for generosity of benefits in Europe.

Hi Barry,

What then may I ask is your theory as to why these desperate people go through a lot more expense and hassle to travel over maybe a thousand miles extra to be in the UK,otherwise wouldn't they stay ion Italy or South of France instead.

cheers

derek

 

Sorry Derek but this is where I think the confusion really is. Your clearly talking about None EU Migrants and refugees which is nothing to do with the EU or Brexit although given some of the propaganda and disgraceful campaigning from the likes of UKIP and farage with his refugees placard you could be forgiven for thinking it was.

 

However to answer your question, again its another myth. The amount of migrants and refugees that make their way to the UK or at least try to are minuscule compared to the numbers that settle in mainland Europe, particularly places like Germany. Again, you could be forgiven for thinking otherwise if you follow the likes of the Mail and Express. (not saying you read either). Those that do, perhaps they speak English as a second language or have relatives here. Same goes for other countries they decide on but there will be other factors. Many flocked to Germany because Mrs Merkal opened the doors, a policy that cause much controversy. Others just like the sound of certain countries.

 

As for EU Migrants coming here. They come to work if there are opportunities. Its supply and demand all over Europe. Of course there are chancers everywhere but generally despite what the media may say free movement is a good thing and in general has a positive outcome for the people and the economy.

 

"free movement is a good thing and in general has a positive outcome for the people and the economy" ... From the man who has zero migrants in his area and has zero effects that migrants would bring to his area but expects those that do have them to continue taking in more ... Ruddy Lala land

[Tracker]

All the while we are plied with the same repetitive misinformation the public are unlikely to re-engage and the continual reposting of repeats on here when a simple answer taking up a fraction of the space would suffice does little to help anyone's cause.

 

When a drearily long repeated reposting is made does anyone read it - I don't - and very often I don't bother with the brief reply right at the bottom either - especially when it is from one of the repeat offenders.

[antony1969]

Tracker - 2018-04-22 1:06 PM

 

All the while we are plied with the same repetitive misinformation the public are unlikely to re-engage and the continual reposting of repeats on here when a simple answer taking up a fraction of the space would suffice does little to help anyone's cause.

 

When a drearily long repeated reposting is made does anyone read it - I don't - and very often I don't bother with the brief reply right at the bottom either - especially when it is from one of the repeat offenders.[/quote

 

So sorry

[antony1969]

antony1969 - 2018-04-22 1:08 PM

 

Tracker - 2018-04-22 1:06 PM

 

All the while we are plied with the same repetitive misinformation the public are unlikely to re-engage and the continual reposting of repeats on here when a simple answer taking up a fraction of the space would suffice does little to help anyone's cause.

 

When a drearily long repeated reposting is made does anyone read it - I don't - and very often I don't bother with the brief reply right at the bottom either - especially when it is from one of the repeat offenders.[/quote

 

So sorry

 

Really am sorry

[antony1969]

antony1969 - 2018-04-22 1:08 PM

 

antony1969 - 2018-04-22 1:08 PM

 

Tracker - 2018-04-22 1:06 PM

 

All the while we are plied with the same repetitive misinformation the public are unlikely to re-engage and the continual reposting of repeats on here when a simple answer taking up a fraction of the space would suffice does little to help anyone's cause.

 

When a drearily long repeated reposting is made does anyone read it - I don't - and very often I don't bother with the brief reply right at the bottom either - especially when it is from one of the repeat offenders.[/quote

 

So sorry

 

Really am sorry

 

Forgive me

[antony1969]

antony1969 - 2018-04-22 1:08 PM

 

antony1969 - 2018-04-22 1:08 PM

 

antony1969 - 2018-04-22 1:08 PM

 

Tracker - 2018-04-22 1:06 PM

 

All the while we are plied with the same repetitive misinformation the public are unlikely to re-engage and the continual reposting of repeats on here when a simple answer taking up a fraction of the space would suffice does little to help anyone's cause.

 

When a drearily long repeated reposting is made does anyone read it - I don't - and very often I don't bother with the brief reply right at the bottom either - especially when it is from one of the repeat offenders.[/quote

 

So sorry

 

Really am sorry

 

Forgive me

 

Saint Richard could you ever forgive me

[Barryd999]

antony1969 - 2018-04-22 12:55 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2018-04-22 9:20 AM

 

derek pringle - 2018-04-22 8:52 AM

 

Barryd999 - 2018-04-21 10:25 AM

 

derek pringle - 2018-04-21 9:44 AM

 

Brian Kirby - 2018-04-20 6:51 PM

 

Tracker - 2018-04-20 5:25 PM.........................However I did hope that by limiting EU immigration, something we currently appear unable to do, it would be the start of proper immigration control..............................

But Rich, what my (admittedly tediously long) quotations from the EU rules on free movement and immigration show, is that the UK is free to limit immigration. The conditions under which it may do so are reasonably clear, appear fair and reasonable, and are no more than we would probably apply to would-be migrants from any source.

 

It seems to me that our government has failed to use the powers it agreed to in those two treaties effectively to manage EU migration to the UK to the proper advantage of our native population.

 

So far as I can see, all the clauses that say EU citizens have rights of entry to other states, attach conditions that reasonably restrict the extent and manner in which those rights can be invoked.

Hi Brian,

Thanks for the detailed info earlier. I agree with Tracker that immigration was not the only reason, I believe the pressure brought about by immigration on housing and the Benefits system were also major factors in the 'Leave' decision. As far as I am aware if a EU citizen arrives in your country they are entitled to any benefits that your native citizens get,provided they meet any qualifying requirements to achieve any benefit. We did/do not have many requirements so this means immigrants to this country become immediately qualified for many benefits. I believe this is one main reason why immigrants travel the extra distance to get to the UK instead of staying in countries nearer their homeland. Better benefits are paid in some other EU countries but would not be achievable to immigrants as easy as the UK.If the EU had a common benefits agreement aligned with each other then the playing field would be more level.

So, obviously, the less we give our own the less we have to give others, I do not think the problem is quite as sharp in some other EU states as their qualifications for achieving benefits alleviate much of the pressure.

cheers

derek

 

They cant just come here and start claiming benefits. They can after three months but only if they qualify and are actively looking for work and then I think its only for a maximum of six months. The UK is in the bottom four for generosity of benefits in Europe.

Hi Barry,

What then may I ask is your theory as to why these desperate people go through a lot more expense and hassle to travel over maybe a thousand miles extra to be in the UK,otherwise wouldn't they stay ion Italy or South of France instead.

cheers

derek

 

Sorry Derek but this is where I think the confusion really is. Your clearly talking about None EU Migrants and refugees which is nothing to do with the EU or Brexit although given some of the propaganda and disgraceful campaigning from the likes of UKIP and farage with his refugees placard you could be forgiven for thinking it was.

 

However to answer your question, again its another myth. The amount of migrants and refugees that make their way to the UK or at least try to are minuscule compared to the numbers that settle in mainland Europe, particularly places like Germany. Again, you could be forgiven for thinking otherwise if you follow the likes of the Mail and Express. (not saying you read either). Those that do, perhaps they speak English as a second language or have relatives here. Same goes for other countries they decide on but there will be other factors. Many flocked to Germany because Mrs Merkal opened the doors, a policy that cause much controversy. Others just like the sound of certain countries.

 

As for EU Migrants coming here. They come to work if there are opportunities. Its supply and demand all over Europe. Of course there are chancers everywhere but generally despite what the media may say free movement is a good thing and in general has a positive outcome for the people and the economy.

 

"free movement is a good thing and in general has a positive outcome for the people and the economy" ... From the man who has zero migrants in his area and has zero effects that migrants would bring to his area but expects those that do have them to continue taking in more ... Ruddy Lala land

 

Who said we had zero migrants? This thread is about Brexit so again are we talking about EU migrants not none EU Economic migrants and refugees. We have Polish immigrants here, Ive mentioned before working on one of my clients sites. Amazingly hard workers. Many of the hotels and some farms and haulage companies have EU workers, the lake District which is less than an hour from here is pretty much run by them.

 

As ive said before though. You can never get rid of migrant workers unless you pull up the trade drawbridge as well as the political one. Whoever you trade with will want free movement for its people and we cannot afford not to have trade deals outside of the UK. Simple as that.

[antony1969]

Barryd999 - 2018-04-22 1:36 PM

 

antony1969 - 2018-04-22 12:55 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2018-04-22 9:20 AM

 

derek pringle - 2018-04-22 8:52 AM

 

Barryd999 - 2018-04-21 10:25 AM

 

derek pringle - 2018-04-21 9:44 AM

 

Brian Kirby - 2018-04-20 6:51 PM

 

Tracker - 2018-04-20 5:25 PM.........................However I did hope that by limiting EU immigration, something we currently appear unable to do, it would be the start of proper immigration control..............................

But Rich, what my (admittedly tediously long) quotations from the EU rules on free movement and immigration show, is that the UK is free to limit immigration. The conditions under which it may do so are reasonably clear, appear fair and reasonable, and are no more than we would probably apply to would-be migrants from any source.

 

It seems to me that our government has failed to use the powers it agreed to in those two treaties effectively to manage EU migration to the UK to the proper advantage of our native population.

 

So far as I can see, all the clauses that say EU citizens have rights of entry to other states, attach conditions that reasonably restrict the extent and manner in which those rights can be invoked.

Hi Brian,

Thanks for the detailed info earlier. I agree with Tracker that immigration was not the only reason, I believe the pressure brought about by immigration on housing and the Benefits system were also major factors in the 'Leave' decision. As far as I am aware if a EU citizen arrives in your country they are entitled to any benefits that your native citizens get,provided they meet any qualifying requirements to achieve any benefit. We did/do not have many requirements so this means immigrants to this country become immediately qualified for many benefits. I believe this is one main reason why immigrants travel the extra distance to get to the UK instead of staying in countries nearer their homeland. Better benefits are paid in some other EU countries but would not be achievable to immigrants as easy as the UK.If the EU had a common benefits agreement aligned with each other then the playing field would be more level.

So, obviously, the less we give our own the less we have to give others, I do not think the problem is quite as sharp in some other EU states as their qualifications for achieving benefits alleviate much of the pressure.

cheers

derek

 

They cant just come here and start claiming benefits. They can after three months but only if they qualify and are actively looking for work and then I think its only for a maximum of six months. The UK is in the bottom four for generosity of benefits in Europe.

Hi Barry,

What then may I ask is your theory as to why these desperate people go through a lot more expense and hassle to travel over maybe a thousand miles extra to be in the UK,otherwise wouldn't they stay ion Italy or South of France instead.

cheers

derek

 

Sorry Derek but this is where I think the confusion really is. Your clearly talking about None EU Migrants and refugees which is nothing to do with the EU or Brexit although given some of the propaganda and disgraceful campaigning from the likes of UKIP and farage with his refugees placard you could be forgiven for thinking it was.

 

However to answer your question, again its another myth. The amount of migrants and refugees that make their way to the UK or at least try to are minuscule compared to the numbers that settle in mainland Europe, particularly places like Germany. Again, you could be forgiven for thinking otherwise if you follow the likes of the Mail and Express. (not saying you read either). Those that do, perhaps they speak English as a second language or have relatives here. Same goes for other countries they decide on but there will be other factors. Many flocked to Germany because Mrs Merkal opened the doors, a policy that cause much controversy. Others just like the sound of certain countries.

 

As for EU Migrants coming here. They come to work if there are opportunities. Its supply and demand all over Europe. Of course there are chancers everywhere but generally despite what the media may say free movement is a good thing and in general has a positive outcome for the people and the economy.

 

"free movement is a good thing and in general has a positive outcome for the people and the economy" ... From the man who has zero migrants in his area and has zero effects that migrants would bring to his area but expects those that do have them to continue taking in more ... Ruddy Lala land

 

Who said we had zero migrants? This thread is about Brexit so again are we talking about EU migrants not none EU Economic migrants and refugees. We have Polish immigrants here, Ive mentioned before working on one of my clients sites. Amazingly hard workers. Many of the hotels and some farms and haulage companies have EU workers, the lake District which is less than an hour from here is pretty much run by them.

 

As ive said before though. You can never get rid of migrant workers unless you pull up the trade drawbridge as well as the political one. Whoever you trade with will want free movement for its people and we cannot afford not to have trade deals outside of the UK. Simple as that.

 

I thought you'd mentioned Merkels open door policy ??? ... You mentioned that in a Brexit thread ???

[Barryd999]

antony1969 - 2018-04-22 2:47 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2018-04-22 1:36 PM

 

antony1969 - 2018-04-22 12:55 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2018-04-22 9:20 AM

 

derek pringle - 2018-04-22 8:52 AM

 

Barryd999 - 2018-04-21 10:25 AM

 

derek pringle - 2018-04-21 9:44 AM

 

Brian Kirby - 2018-04-20 6:51 PM

 

Tracker - 2018-04-20 5:25 PM.........................However I did hope that by limiting EU immigration, something we currently appear unable to do, it would be the start of proper immigration control..............................

But Rich, what my (admittedly tediously long) quotations from the EU rules on free movement and immigration show, is that the UK is free to limit immigration. The conditions under which it may do so are reasonably clear, appear fair and reasonable, and are no more than we would probably apply to would-be migrants from any source.

 

It seems to me that our government has failed to use the powers it agreed to in those two treaties effectively to manage EU migration to the UK to the proper advantage of our native population.

 

So far as I can see, all the clauses that say EU citizens have rights of entry to other states, attach conditions that reasonably restrict the extent and manner in which those rights can be invoked.

Hi Brian,

Thanks for the detailed info earlier. I agree with Tracker that immigration was not the only reason, I believe the pressure brought about by immigration on housing and the Benefits system were also major factors in the 'Leave' decision. As far as I am aware if a EU citizen arrives in your country they are entitled to any benefits that your native citizens get,provided they meet any qualifying requirements to achieve any benefit. We did/do not have many requirements so this means immigrants to this country become immediately qualified for many benefits. I believe this is one main reason why immigrants travel the extra distance to get to the UK instead of staying in countries nearer their homeland. Better benefits are paid in some other EU countries but would not be achievable to immigrants as easy as the UK.If the EU had a common benefits agreement aligned with each other then the playing field would be more level.

So, obviously, the less we give our own the less we have to give others, I do not think the problem is quite as sharp in some other EU states as their qualifications for achieving benefits alleviate much of the pressure.

cheers

derek

 

They cant just come here and start claiming benefits. They can after three months but only if they qualify and are actively looking for work and then I think its only for a maximum of six months. The UK is in the bottom four for generosity of benefits in Europe.

Hi Barry,

What then may I ask is your theory as to why these desperate people go through a lot more expense and hassle to travel over maybe a thousand miles extra to be in the UK,otherwise wouldn't they stay ion Italy or South of France instead.

cheers

derek

 

Sorry Derek but this is where I think the confusion really is. Your clearly talking about None EU Migrants and refugees which is nothing to do with the EU or Brexit although given some of the propaganda and disgraceful campaigning from the likes of UKIP and farage with his refugees placard you could be forgiven for thinking it was.

 

However to answer your question, again its another myth. The amount of migrants and refugees that make their way to the UK or at least try to are minuscule compared to the numbers that settle in mainland Europe, particularly places like Germany. Again, you could be forgiven for thinking otherwise if you follow the likes of the Mail and Express. (not saying you read either). Those that do, perhaps they speak English as a second language or have relatives here. Same goes for other countries they decide on but there will be other factors. Many flocked to Germany because Mrs Merkal opened the doors, a policy that cause much controversy. Others just like the sound of certain countries.

 

As for EU Migrants coming here. They come to work if there are opportunities. Its supply and demand all over Europe. Of course there are chancers everywhere but generally despite what the media may say free movement is a good thing and in general has a positive outcome for the people and the economy.

 

"free movement is a good thing and in general has a positive outcome for the people and the economy" ... From the man who has zero migrants in his area and has zero effects that migrants would bring to his area but expects those that do have them to continue taking in more ... Ruddy Lala land

 

Who said we had zero migrants? This thread is about Brexit so again are we talking about EU migrants not none EU Economic migrants and refugees. We have Polish immigrants here, Ive mentioned before working on one of my clients sites. Amazingly hard workers. Many of the hotels and some farms and haulage companies have EU workers, the lake District which is less than an hour from here is pretty much run by them.

 

As ive said before though. You can never get rid of migrant workers unless you pull up the trade drawbridge as well as the political one. Whoever you trade with will want free movement for its people and we cannot afford not to have trade deals outside of the UK. Simple as that.

 

I thought you'd mentioned Merkels open door policy ??? ... You mentioned that in a Brexit thread ???

 

Yes in response to Derek but you then went on to quote my "Free movement being a good thing" statement so naturally I assumed you were talking about EU Migrants as there is no free movement for none EU migrants.

 

Where did that term "Free movement" come from anyway? Was it out of the EU or did we call it that. I suspect if they had called it qualified movement or conditional movement we wouldnt have as much as a problem with it because after all that is what it is. It is not Free Movement because you cant just come here or to any other country and bum around living off the state. You either have to find a job within three months or show that your looking for one or be able to support yourself.

 

Someone got the wording wrong.

 

There were moves within the EU to offer concessions in certain cases around the referendum time and it has happened in Lichtenstein although being a micro state its hardly comparable to the UK.

 

[Barryd999]

For Antony!!

 

The public have been re-engaged in Huddersfield it seems and they want to stay in the single market!

 

https://www.examiner.co.uk/news/west-yorkshire-news/most-huddersfield-folks-want-remain-14561468

 

I have seen a fair few of these local surveys come in today on the Brexit Hotline feed and they are all similar. A larger percentage of Leavers have changed their minds than Remainers in how they would vote and without doubt in most of the surveys a majority favour a soft Brexit with Customs Union and single Market access.

 

Its not much but its a swing. Someone should tell these people though that if they want to stay in the Single Market and Customs union then there really is no point in leaving.

[antony1969]

Hardly ground breaking stuff ... Your survey says nearly half of the good folk of Huddersfield believe they would be better off economically in Europe ... Given the Brexit vote was an almost 50% split as in my area The Colne Valley the split was 51% leave to 49% remain then wheres the big change of heart ??? ... One thousand folk voted who visited The Huddersfield Examiner website voted in the poll but to be honest I reckon most leave voters as soon as they see a Brexit poll get turned off ... Ive yet to hear any leave voters regret voting the way they did and all I hear is folk wanting to get on with it ... I met a fella last week in the builders merchants who didn't vote but at that time he believed we should remain , now he says if the vote was now he'd vote leave ... If the country has had a big change of heart then where are the demos , where is the uproar from those who were cheated ??? All I see are small remain gatherings and even that silly peoples army only got to half a million staunch remainers which is nothing ... Your last bit about informing folk if they want to stay in the single market and customs union they should stay is a little patronising as we already knew that before the last vote , I do believe David Cameron told us 26 times just that fact once during one big speech ... Most remain voters and most leave voters knew what they were voting for so give em a little credit

[derek pringle]

antony1969 - 2018-04-22 12:55 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2018-04-22 9:20 AM

 

derek pringle - 2018-04-22 8:52 AM

 

Barryd999 - 2018-04-21 10:25 AM

 

derek pringle - 2018-04-21 9:44 AM

 

Brian Kirby - 2018-04-20 6:51 PM

 

Tracker - 2018-04-20 5:25 PM.........................However I did hope that by limiting EU immigration, something we currently appear unable to do, it would be the start of proper immigration control..............................

But Rich, what my (admittedly tediously long) quotations from the EU rules on free movement and immigration show, is that the UK is free to limit immigration. The conditions under which it may do so are reasonably clear, appear fair and reasonable, and are no more than we would probably apply to would-be migrants from any source.

 

It seems to me that our government has failed to use the powers it agreed to in those two treaties effectively to manage EU migration to the UK to the proper advantage of our native population.

 

So far as I can see, all the clauses that say EU citizens have rights of entry to other states, attach conditions that reasonably restrict the extent and manner in which those rights can be invoked.

Hi Brian,

Thanks for the detailed info earlier. I agree with Tracker that immigration was not the only reason, I believe the pressure brought about by immigration on housing and the Benefits system were also major factors in the 'Leave' decision. As far as I am aware if a EU citizen arrives in your country they are entitled to any benefits that your native citizens get,provided they meet any qualifying requirements to achieve any benefit. We did/do not have many requirements so this means immigrants to this country become immediately qualified for many benefits. I believe this is one main reason why immigrants travel the extra distance to get to the UK instead of staying in countries nearer their homeland. Better benefits are paid in some other EU countries but would not be achievable to immigrants as easy as the UK.If the EU had a common benefits agreement aligned with each other then the playing field would be more level.

So, obviously, the less we give our own the less we have to give others, I do not think the problem is quite as sharp in some other EU states as their qualifications for achieving benefits alleviate much of the pressure.

cheers

derek

 

They cant just come here and start claiming benefits. They can after three months but only if they qualify and are actively looking for work and then I think its only for a maximum of six months. The UK is in the bottom four for generosity of benefits in Europe.

Hi Barry,

What then may I ask is your theory as to why these desperate people go through a lot more expense and hassle to travel over maybe a thousand miles extra to be in the UK,otherwise wouldn't they stay ion Italy or South of France instead.

cheers

derek

 

Sorry Derek but this is where I think the confusion really is. Your clearly talking about None EU Migrants and refugees which is nothing to do with the EU or Brexit although given some of the propaganda and disgraceful campaigning from the likes of UKIP and farage with his refugees placard you could be forgiven for thinking it was.

 

However to answer your question, again its another myth. The amount of migrants and refugees that make their way to the UK or at least try to are minuscule compared to the numbers that settle in mainland Europe, particularly places like Germany. Again, you could be forgiven for thinking otherwise if you follow the likes of the Mail and Express. (not saying you read either). Those that do, perhaps they speak English as a second language or have relatives here. Same goes for other countries they decide on but there will be other factors. Many flocked to Germany because Mrs Merkal opened the doors, a policy that cause much controversy. Others just like the sound of certain countries.

 

As for EU Migrants coming here. They come to work if there are opportunities. Its supply and demand all over Europe. Of course there are chancers everywhere but generally despite what the media may say free movement is a good thing and in general has a positive outcome for the people and the economy.

 

"free movement is a good thing and in general has a positive outcome for the people and the economy" ... From the man who has zero migrants in his area and has zero effects that migrants would bring to his area but expects those that do have them to continue taking in more ... Ruddy Lala land

Hi Anthony,

I agree in the main what you are saying and maybe I am not explaining myself so well.There are however Illegal immigrants here,I don't believe the number is known and yes the majority are from outside EU,but we also have illegals from inside the EU, people with criminal records and such cannot stay for instance. Just seemed to me they could create illegal immigrants out of the Windrush people yet we don't hear any numbers of how many people are deported totally from anywhere they may come. One thing I have heard is that as soon as they get here they hide or destroy their passports so we do not know where to send them back too. I believe a Full Statement of the procedures and numbers should be issued.

A lot of immigrants do a lot of good and do contribute but I wouldn't get carried away with this as if they are doing the jobs we Brits won't do then I am sure not many will be earning enough to contribute.

cheers

derek

[antony1969]

Nice one Derek ... I get ya ... Tread carefully on here with even the slightest questioning of immigration ... You could end up with a hole shed load of names thrown at ya ... Those who throw the names you'll find live nowhere near migrant areas ... Crazy isn't it

[Barryd999]

antony1969 - 2018-04-23 6:09 AM

 

Hardly ground breaking stuff ... Your survey says nearly half of the good folk of Huddersfield believe they would be better off economically in Europe ... Given the Brexit vote was an almost 50% split as in my area The Colne Valley the split was 51% leave to 49% remain then wheres the big change of heart ??? ... One thousand folk voted who visited The Huddersfield Examiner website voted in the poll but to be honest I reckon most leave voters as soon as they see a Brexit poll get turned off ... Ive yet to hear any leave voters regret voting the way they did and all I hear is folk wanting to get on with it ... I met a fella last week in the builders merchants who didn't vote but at that time he believed we should remain , now he says if the vote was now he'd vote leave ... If the country has had a big change of heart then where are the demos , where is the uproar from those who were cheated ??? All I see are small remain gatherings and even that silly peoples army only got to half a million staunch remainers which is nothing ... Your last bit about informing folk if they want to stay in the single market and customs union they should stay is a little patronising as we already knew that before the last vote , I do believe David Cameron told us 26 times just that fact once during one big speech ... Most remain voters and most leave voters knew what they were voting for so give em a little credit

 

That example was just one I pulled out just for you Antony as it was your home town out of hundreds that were carried out across the UK in the biggest survey ever carried out by Johnston Press, as well as newspaper groups Newsquest and Trinity Mirror,

 

Over 200000 people were surveyed. Ok so nationally there is a small swing to remain 52% to 48% ironically but that has been known now for some time and seems to be about the same. However what it does show is nationally 20% of Leave voters now believe we should stay in the single market!

 

There can only be two possible reasons for this. Either some of the Brexiteers really did not know what they were voting for or they do not really want to leave the EU but do not want to admit it. What is the point of staying in the Single Market and Customs Union but still leave the EU? 20% of your leave voters apparently want to!

 

I have noticed that this mammoth survey has been slow to have been picked up by the big Brexit biased media but Ive watched the results come in over the past 24 hours and its the same pattern just about everywhere. People are very unhappy with the way Brexit is going and they certainly do not want a hard brexit or probably any Brexit at all. Even Cornwall Surprise Surprise given the funding it got has now changed its mind!

 

 

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/general-election/major-survey-finds-remain-would-win-second-brexit-referendum-1-4728629

 

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/most-brits-want-uk-stay-12409352

 

[antony1969]

If recent history has taught us one thing it's to not believe polls or surveys who ever they favour ... In these days of protest wether on the streets or social media im more than surprised we don't have large numbers of leave voters out demonstrating that they were conned or they've changed their minds if your theory is correct Barry ... Look at this place the endless doom and gloom posts and also boom posts have changed no one's minds as far as I'm aware and we've had Brexit info overload on here ... Like I have said before everyone know apart from.my son in law voted to leave and I'm hearing nothing about a change of heart in fact quite the opposite they just want to get on with it ... Number 10 has said again we will be leaving the customs union ... Get used to it

[Barryd999]

antony1969 - 2018-04-23 11:02 AM

 

If recent history has taught us one thing it's to not believe polls or surveys who ever they favour ... In these days of protest wether on the streets or social media im more than surprised we don't have large numbers of leave voters out demonstrating that they were conned or they've changed their minds if your theory is correct Barry ... Look at this place the endless doom and gloom posts and also boom posts have changed no one's minds as far as I'm aware and we've had Brexit info overload on here ... Like I have said before everyone know apart from.my son in law voted to leave and I'm hearing nothing about a change of heart in fact quite the opposite they just want to get on with it ... Number 10 has said again we will be leaving the customs union ... Get used to it

 

Number 10 might not have a choice Antony. The people on forums are generally entrenched. Well the people who are vocal are, who knows what the silent readers are thinking? You wont get large numbers of Leavers protesting either as they dont want to admit they are wrong. 20% of them saying in a huge survey that they want to stay in the single market is either as far as you will get to an admission of error of judgement or they simply just didnt have a clue. How big a survey do you need to see a pattern?

 

I strongly believe that the small swing to remain would actually be a bigger swing if we had the chance to vote again. if one in five leavers believe we should stay in the single market then I bet given the chance in a voting booth they would tick the remain box. People just dont want to admit they were wrong, its pathetic.

[Brian Kirby]

Barryd999 - 2018-04-22 4:19 PM

 

antony1969 - 2018-04-22 2:47 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2018-04-22 1:36 PM

 

antony1969 - 2018-04-22 12:55 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2018-04-22 9:20 AM

 

derek pringle - 2018-04-22 8:52 AM

 

Barryd999 - 2018-04-21 10:25 AM

 

derek pringle - 2018-04-21 9:44 AM

 

Brian Kirby - 2018-04-20 6:51 PM

 

Tracker - 2018-04-20 5:25 PM.........................However I did hope that by limiting EU immigration, something we currently appear unable to do, it would be the start of proper immigration control..............................

But Rich, what my (admittedly tediously long) quotations from the EU rules on free movement and immigration show, is that the UK is free to limit immigration. The conditions under which it may do so are reasonably clear, appear fair and reasonable, and are no more than we would probably apply to would-be migrants from any source.

 

It seems to me that our government has failed to use the powers it agreed to in those two treaties effectively to manage EU migration to the UK to the proper advantage of our native population.

 

So far as I can see, all the clauses that say EU citizens have rights of entry to other states, attach conditions that reasonably restrict the extent and manner in which those rights can be invoked.

Hi Brian,

Thanks for the detailed info earlier. I agree with Tracker that immigration was not the only reason, I believe the pressure brought about by immigration on housing and the Benefits system were also major factors in the 'Leave' decision. As far as I am aware if a EU citizen arrives in your country they are entitled to any benefits that your native citizens get,provided they meet any qualifying requirements to achieve any benefit. We did/do not have many requirements so this means immigrants to this country become immediately qualified for many benefits. I believe this is one main reason why immigrants travel the extra distance to get to the UK instead of staying in countries nearer their homeland. Better benefits are paid in some other EU countries but would not be achievable to immigrants as easy as the UK.If the EU had a common benefits agreement aligned with each other then the playing field would be more level.

So, obviously, the less we give our own the less we have to give others, I do not think the problem is quite as sharp in some other EU states as their qualifications for achieving benefits alleviate much of the pressure.

cheers

derek

 

They cant just come here and start claiming benefits. They can after three months but only if they qualify and are actively looking for work and then I think its only for a maximum of six months. The UK is in the bottom four for generosity of benefits in Europe.

Hi Barry,

What then may I ask is your theory as to why these desperate people go through a lot more expense and hassle to travel over maybe a thousand miles extra to be in the UK,otherwise wouldn't they stay ion Italy or South of France instead.

cheers

derek

 

Sorry Derek but this is where I think the confusion really is. Your clearly talking about None EU Migrants and refugees which is nothing to do with the EU or Brexit although given some of the propaganda and disgraceful campaigning from the likes of UKIP and farage with his refugees placard you could be forgiven for thinking it was.

 

However to answer your question, again its another myth. The amount of migrants and refugees that make their way to the UK or at least try to are minuscule compared to the numbers that settle in mainland Europe, particularly places like Germany. Again, you could be forgiven for thinking otherwise if you follow the likes of the Mail and Express. (not saying you read either). Those that do, perhaps they speak English as a second language or have relatives here. Same goes for other countries they decide on but there will be other factors. Many flocked to Germany because Mrs Merkal opened the doors, a policy that cause much controversy. Others just like the sound of certain countries.

 

As for EU Migrants coming here. They come to work if there are opportunities. Its supply and demand all over Europe. Of course there are chancers everywhere but generally despite what the media may say free movement is a good thing and in general has a positive outcome for the people and the economy.

 

"free movement is a good thing and in general has a positive outcome for the people and the economy" ... From the man who has zero migrants in his area and has zero effects that migrants would bring to his area but expects those that do have them to continue taking in more ... Ruddy Lala land

 

Who said we had zero migrants? This thread is about Brexit so again are we talking about EU migrants not none EU Economic migrants and refugees. We have Polish immigrants here, Ive mentioned before working on one of my clients sites. Amazingly hard workers. Many of the hotels and some farms and haulage companies have EU workers, the lake District which is less than an hour from here is pretty much run by them.

 

As ive said before though. You can never get rid of migrant workers unless you pull up the trade drawbridge as well as the political one. Whoever you trade with will want free movement for its people and we cannot afford not to have trade deals outside of the UK. Simple as that.

 

I thought you'd mentioned Merkels open door policy ??? ... You mentioned that in a Brexit thread ???

 

Yes in response to Derek but you then went on to quote my "Free movement being a good thing" statement so naturally I assumed you were talking about EU Migrants as there is no free movement for none EU migrants.

 

Where did that term "Free movement" come from anyway? Was it out of the EU or did we call it that. I suspect if they had called it qualified movement or conditional movement we wouldnt have as much as a problem with it because after all that is what it is. It is not Free Movement because you cant just come here or to any other country and bum around living off the state. You either have to find a job within three months or show that your looking for one or be able to support yourself.

 

Someone got the wording wrong.

 

There were moves within the EU to offer concessions in certain cases around the referendum time and it has happened in Lichtenstein although being a micro state its hardly comparable to the UK.

Two types of migrant are being conflated. This is causing confusion.

 

There are immigrants from outside the EU, and there are immigrants from within the EU. The rules on who has what right vary depending on which group is under discussion. It is, therefore, important to be specific.

 

Migrants from outside the EU as dealt with under EU rules as follows:

 

EU countries have agreed that the EU should have common, or EU-wide, immigration and visa rules that will be valid all across the EU. These are set out in the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (2009)

 

Common measures to date include:

• EU-wide rules that allow citizens of countries outside the EU to work or study in an EU country. They cover specifically individuals who are:

• Highly-qualified workers

• Researchers

• Students

• Trainees, school pupils or volunteers

• Intra-corporate transferees

• Seasonal workers

 

• EU-wide rules that allow citizens of countries outside the EU who are staying legally in an EU country to bring their non-EU family members to live with them and to become long-term residents.

 

Exceptions to EU-wide rules

 

EU-wide immigration rules generally apply in 25 out of the EU’s 28 countries. The following exceptions apply:

 

• Denmark does not apply EU-wide rules which relate to immigration, visa and asylum policies.

 

• Ireland and the United Kingdom choose, on a case-by-case basis, whether or not to adopt EU rules on immigration, visa and asylum policies.

 

The member states have the following agreed rights in interpreting these rules:

 

Each EU country alone decides:

• The total number of migrants that can be admitted to the country to look for work;

• All final decisions on migrant applications;

• Rules on long-term visas – stays for periods longer than three months; and

• Conditions to obtain residence and work permits when no EU-wide rules have been adopted.

 

Since the UK if still a member state, it has the above rights. In brief, we decide who to let in.

 

The rules for immigrants from within the EU are as follows:

 

Those who come under the provisions for free movement of workers must not be discriminated against on grounds of access to employment, working conditions, social and tax advantages, access to training, membership of trade unions, housing and access to education for children.

 

Those who come under the provisions for free movement of citizens (note, not people - one first has to be, or have become, a citizen of an EU state) can move to another EU state subject to:

 

First three months: Every EU citizen has the right to reside on the territory of another EU country for up to three months without any conditions or formalities.

 

After the first three months: EU citizens' right to reside in another EU country for more than three months is subject to certain conditions, depending on their status in the host EU country:

 

•Workers and the self-employed, and their direct family members, have the right to reside without any conditions.

 

•Job seekers have the right to reside without any conditions for a period of six months and even longer, if they continue to seek employment in the host EU country and have a "genuine chance" of getting work. Job-seekers can export unemployment benefits from their home Member State for a minimum of three months while seeking work in another Member State, if they have first been registered as unemployed in their home Member State.

 

•Students and other economically non-active persons (e.g. unemployed, retired, etc.) have the right to reside for longer than three months if they have for themselves and their family sufficient financial means so as not to become a burden on the host EU country’s social assistance system as well as health insurance.

 

After five years: After five years of continuous legal residence, EU citizens and their family members obtain the right to reside on a permanent basis in the host EU country. Once acquired, this right is no longer subject to the conditions applicable in the previous five years.

 

They only become eligible for social assistance and benefits if:

 

EU citizens who reside legally in another EU country must be treated equally with nationals. Thanks to the principle of equal treatment, they are therefore generally entitled to benefits as well as social and tax advantages, including social assistance, in the same way as the host country's own nationals.

 

However, EU law provides for safeguards as regards access to social assistance for economically inactive mobile EU citizens, to protect host Member States from unreasonable financial burdens.

 

•First three months: The host EU country is not obliged by EU law to grant social assistance to economically non-active EU citizens during the first three months of residence.

 

•Between three months and five years: Economically non-active EU citizens are in practice unlikely to be eligible for social assistance benefits, since to acquire the right to reside they would have initially needed to show to the national authorities that they had sufficient resources (see above).

 

If they apply for a social assistance benefits, for example because their economic situation subsequently deteriorates, their request must be assessed in the light of their right to equal treatment. But also here, EU law provides for safeguards:

 

First, in specific cases, claiming social assistance can give rise to a reasonable doubt on the part of national authorities that the person may have become an unreasonable burden on the social assistance system.

 

Furthermore, the Member State may make the grant of a social assistance or special non-contributory benefit (i.e. benefits that have elements of social security and social assistance at the same time and are covered by Regulation 883/2004) conditional on that citizen meeting the requirements for obtaining legal right of residence for a period of more than three months. However, the Member State cannot refuse to grant these benefits automatically to non-active EU citizens nor can they automatically be considered as not possessing sufficient resources and thus not having a right to reside.

 

National authorities should assess the individual situation, taking into account a range of factors (amount, duration, temporary nature of difficulty, overall extent of burden on national assistance system).

 

If, on the basis of such an individual assessment, authorities conclude that the persons concerned have become an unreasonable burden, they may terminate their right of residence.

 

After five years: EU citizens who have acquired the right of permanent residence are entitled to social assistance in the same way as nationals of the host EU country. No derogations are allowed under EU law.

 

Who is entitled to social security benefits?

 

Typical social security benefits include old age pension, survivor's pension, disability benefits, sickness benefits, birth grant, unemployment benefits, family benefits or health care.

 

Member States set their own social security rules in line with their own circumstances. The EU coordinates social security rules (Regulations (EC) No 883/2004 and 987/2009) only to the extent necessary to ensure that EU citizens do not lose their social security rights when moving within the EU.

 

This means that the host country's laws determine which benefits are provided for, under which conditions they are granted (such as taking into account the period of work), for how long and how much is paid. Benefit entitlement varies therefore in different EU countries.

 

It is all there, and if immigrants to the UK can be shown to actually receive priority treatment (which is not demanded by any of the above) either the government has acquiesced in allowing that, or those making the decisions are not competent to their task and need, at minimum, re-training. I can't see anything in these rules that bears unreasonably on the UK, or any other state. There appear to me to be perfectly adequate protections against exploitation, so if the system is being exploited, the reason is not within the EU's rules, but in the way in which they are being applied (or not!), which decisions lie within the jurisdiction of the UK government.

 

Its fine to moan about things you don't like, but one does first have to identify who is responsible for their existence! :-D

[antony1969]

Barryd999 - 2018-04-23 11:11 AM

 

antony1969 - 2018-04-23 11:02 AM

 

If recent history has taught us one thing it's to not believe polls or surveys who ever they favour ... In these days of protest wether on the streets or social media im more than surprised we don't have large numbers of leave voters out demonstrating that they were conned or they've changed their minds if your theory is correct Barry ... Look at this place the endless doom and gloom posts and also boom posts have changed no one's minds as far as I'm aware and we've had Brexit info overload on here ... Like I have said before everyone know apart from.my son in law voted to leave and I'm hearing nothing about a change of heart in fact quite the opposite they just want to get on with it ... Number 10 has said again we will be leaving the customs union ... Get used to it

 

Number 10 might not have a choice Antony. The people on forums are generally entrenched. Well the people who are vocal are, who knows what the silent readers are thinking? You wont get large numbers of Leavers protesting either as they dont want to admit they are wrong. 20% of them saying in a huge survey that they want to stay in the single market is either as far as you will get to an admission of error of judgement or they simply just didnt have a clue. How big a survey do you need to see a pattern?

 

I strongly believe that the small swing to remain would actually be a bigger swing if we had the chance to vote again. if one in five leavers believe we should stay in the single market then I bet given the chance in a voting booth they would tick the remain box. People just dont want to admit they were wrong, its pathetic.

 

I think your bonkers ... Your saying folk would rather face the financial ruin you keep talking about than admit they got it wrong and demand a second vote ... No way ... I'm afraid to say if anyone's stuck in their not budging mode then it's yourself and those like ya

[Barryd999]

antony1969 - 2018-04-23 11:30 AM

 

Barryd999 - 2018-04-23 11:11 AM

 

antony1969 - 2018-04-23 11:02 AM

 

If recent history has taught us one thing it's to not believe polls or surveys who ever they favour ... In these days of protest wether on the streets or social media im more than surprised we don't have large numbers of leave voters out demonstrating that they were conned or they've changed their minds if your theory is correct Barry ... Look at this place the endless doom and gloom posts and also boom posts have changed no one's minds as far as I'm aware and we've had Brexit info overload on here ... Like I have said before everyone know apart from.my son in law voted to leave and I'm hearing nothing about a change of heart in fact quite the opposite they just want to get on with it ... Number 10 has said again we will be leaving the customs union ... Get used to it

 

Number 10 might not have a choice Antony. The people on forums are generally entrenched. Well the people who are vocal are, who knows what the silent readers are thinking? You wont get large numbers of Leavers protesting either as they dont want to admit they are wrong. 20% of them saying in a huge survey that they want to stay in the single market is either as far as you will get to an admission of error of judgement or they simply just didnt have a clue. How big a survey do you need to see a pattern?

 

I strongly believe that the small swing to remain would actually be a bigger swing if we had the chance to vote again. if one in five leavers believe we should stay in the single market then I bet given the chance in a voting booth they would tick the remain box. People just dont want to admit they were wrong, its pathetic.

 

I think your bonkers ... Your saying folk would rather face the financial ruin you keep talking about than admit they got it wrong and demand a second vote ... No way ... I'm afraid to say if anyone's stuck in their not budging mode then it's yourself and those like ya

 

Well to be fair my experience of Brexiteers is tainted somewhat by those I engage on forums and I think it is fair to say that many of them on the forums would I think rather accept massive financial ruin to the UK economy than give up Brexit. Im pretty sure most of them have doubts but wont admit it. Of course most of them that would see the economy crash just to get their Brexit are probably wealthy retired motorhomers etc. As for the general public and none engaged Brexit forum veterans (lets call them Civilians) I suspect most of them dont know what the hell is going on which is why we need to re-engage them. If 20% of Brexit voters now want to stay in the single Market I Would like a logical explanation for that as it pretty much means leaving in name only.

 

I dont think the majority of Brexit voters would rather face financial ruin but they are probably not aware they are about to.